Oh no! More proposed D-DOT bus cuts!

[trotwood]

It's pretty clear the administration views DDOT as a red-headed stepchild, a "problem",.....

Seems to me that's the feeling towards the citizens of Detroit in general. The city has no regard for it's residents whatsoever!

[Zacha341]

Indeed. If you don't have a car your basically trapped and a captive audience to the stores and what not that may be in your area. Not good. Especially in terms of employment options outside of Detroit....

[trotwood]

I can't imagine the unemployment situation getting better in light of these new DDOT cuts.

[middetres]

These cuts are beyond ridiculous. The small cuts on each route are doing more damage...longer waits and more crowded buses. The growing frustration from drivers and riders is understandable.

Instead of spreading these cuts across the board on every route, a new approach would go along way to building a reliable system:

Get rid of half the routes. Keep the 20-25 [[out of 48) busiest routes, but increase service hours and frequency. Make sure those buses are running on time.

Yes, it will mean longer walks to bus lines, but knowing those buses will be there and on time is more important than having a bus line close by. Would you rather leave 15-20 minutes early to walk a mile to a bus stop, or walk a block to a bus stop and wait for a bus that may never come?

Would you rather run someone to the bus stop a mile away, or drive them all the way to their job?

Increase dail-a-ride services for the elderly and disabled.

Two other issues also add to the inefficiency of the bus system:

Bus stops are too close together. DDOT really wasted a good opportunity to rectify that situation when they installed the new bus stop signs a couple years ago. Some stops are only a block or two apart. That may have made sense at one time, but not now.

Stop taking cash for fares!! The system needs to move to refillable swipe cards for all. Refill online or at kiosks at all current locations selling bus passes. Nothing takes more time than to load 20 passengers at a busy stop when all have to dig in their pockets for their fare.

[epiphany]

These cuts are beyond ridiculous. The small cuts on each route are doing more damage...longer waits and more crowded buses. The growing frustration from drivers and riders is understandable.

Instead of spreading these cuts across the board on every route, a new approach would go along way to building a reliable system:

Get rid of half the routes. Keep the 20-25 [[out of 48) busiest routes, but increase service hours and frequency. Make sure those buses are running on time.

Yes, it will mean longer walks to bus lines, but knowing those buses will be there and on time is more important than having a bus line close by. Would you rather leave 15-20 minutes early to walk a mile to a bus stop, or walk a block to a bus stop and wait for a bus that may never come?

Would you rather run someone to the bus stop a mile away, or drive them all the way to their job?

Increase dail-a-ride services for the elderly and disabled.

Two other issues also add to the inefficiency of the bus system:

Bus stops are too close together. DDOT really wasted a good opportunity to rectify that situation when they installed the new bus stop signs a couple years ago. Some stops are only a block or two apart. That may have made sense at one time, but not now.

Stop taking cash for fares!! The system needs to move to refillable swipe cards for all. Refill online or at kiosks at all current locations selling bus passes. Nothing takes more time than to load 20 passengers at a busy stop when all have to dig in their pockets for their fare.

I couldn't agree more. So many of the bus routes are LESS than a mile apart and basically take the same route a few blocks apart from each other.... and they really need to get it together when it comes to showing up on time. I get so angry when I wait over an hour for a bus and then sometimes THREE buses come at the same time that are nearly empty because the one in front is picking up all of the passengers. What a waste of money.

[swingline]

It costs $1.50 to ride the bus in Detroit. Students, a significant percentage of the ridership pay $.75. Seniors, who comprise another very large percentage of the ridership, pay $.50. This is just unsustainable. DDOT has to raise more money at the farebox. Fares should be raised immediately.

Here are the current bus fares in 20 different large U.S. cities:

• $2.50 - Atlanta
• $2.25 - Seattle, New York, Denver, Cleveland, Minneapolis [[rush hour), Milwaukee, San Diego, Chicago and Pittburgh;
• $2.10 - Portland
• $2.00 - San Francisco, Philadelphia, Miami and St. Louis;
• $1.75 - Dallas, Memphis, Phoenix and Buffalo;
• $1.70 - Wash. D.C.

Most of these cities have student and senior discounts as well, but none are as generous as Detroit.

No bus system comes close to paying for itself at the farebox, but Detroit trails its peer cities by a wide margin in percentage of system costs paid by ridership revenues.

Base fare should get increased to $2.00. Seniors and students should pay at least $1.00. If other cities can handle these fares, so can we.

[middetres]

Agreed, Swingline.

If they'd do away with accepting cash, each swipe would cost $2, but be good for unlimited rides and transfers for the ensuing 2-hour period. After the initial 2 hours a 50-cent transfer would kick in and stretch it to 4 hours of riding. Beyond the 4-hour period a new $2 fare would be assessed.

Half that for students and seniors.

Simple and easy!

[Scottathew]

No bus system comes close to paying for itself at the farebox

Nor should it.

Road are wholly subsidized at 100% minus few bridges. Each day I ride to work and I don't pay one-cent for road maintenance.

Buses riders aren't wholly subsidized like people who own their own cars.

I guess my point is that, while perhaps Detroit fares might be too low based on your arguments, that the goal shouldn't be a self-funded system.

[swingline]

Nor should it.

Road are wholly subsidized at 100% minus few bridges. Each day I ride to work and I don't pay one-cent for road maintenance.

Buses riders aren't wholly subsidized like people who own their own cars.

I guess my point is that, while perhaps Detroit fares might be too low based on your arguments, that the goal shouldn't be a self-funded system.

Your quote of a sentence fragment of mine misstates my point completely.

Transit should always be subsidized regionally, and even statewide at a certain level. The economic development, environmental and land use benefits of transit justify a significant subsidy. An argument that I don't ride it so I shouldn't have to pay for it befits a Cro-Magnon that can't plan past the next woolly mammoth hunt.

[Scottathew]

An argument that I don't ride it so I shouldn't have to pay for it befits a Cro-Magnon that can't plan past the next woolly mammoth hunt.

Cool, we agree, my point exactly. Roads are wholly subsidized [[minus registration fees), while buses are only partially subsidized.

[Danny]

Recent sources from Fox 2 News that D-DOT administrators are planning to release several new buses by the end of this month, but I doubt that.

[Scottathew]

It's time for the city to grow some balls. Instead of punishing regular folks by cutting bus service, let's right-size the cost of labor. If unions aren't on-board, privatize.

[cramerro]

Recent sources from Fox 2 News that D-DOT administrators are planning to release several new buses by the end of this month, but I doubt that.

The city got some pots of funding, recovery and otherwise, from the Feds a few years back. The buses are coming in for delivery now, they're already signed sealed and delivered. There is nothing that would hinder even DDOT's ability to be put into service related to the city's financial condition... and they obvisouly will need little to no maintenance and sip fuel and oil compared to the big TMCs that are lumbering around today.

[cramerro]

Cool, we agree, my point exactly. Roads are wholly subsidized [[minus registration fees), while buses are only partially subsidized.

I am a transit guy, but we need to be having a discussion that is rational so as not to be quickly disregarded.

Your comparison is not equal... you don't DRIVE a road to work versus RIDE a bus.

In fact, the bus you ride uses those same roads, so whatever arrangement funds the roads also benefits the bus equally [[although makes a transit system less efficient when the freeways contribute to sprawl etc etc etc).

The comparison is a owning and operating a car versus riding a bus.

CAR: You have to pay for gas [[including a gas tax that goes to pay for roads and transit), maintenance, insurance, and the car when you drive to work, and pay for parking and have a place to park it where you live [[driveway, street, garage, etc). Possible subsidies here are roads, ethanol production, auto industry bailout, lending practices that promote suburban [[non-transit supportive density) growth, indirect war spending to control gas prices?

BUS: You pay a fare to ride a bus, whose operating agency has to pay for gas [[including a gas tax that goes to pay for roads and transit), maintenance, insurance, the bus, someone to operate the bus, and some other people to keep the whole system running. The agency also has to have a place to park it where it is stored [[terminal, etc). Subsidies here are Federal and State funding for capital and operating expenses of the agencies, roads, indirect war spending to control gas prices?

You can make arguments about other ways that indirect policies and etc subsidize one or the other. The point that fares could be higher merely means that you could increase fares to a level that is more on par with other systems across the country [[or even just to teh $2.00 SMART is at) to help generate SOME additional revenue to SOFTEN the deathblow of cutting the city subsidy by $10, $20, now they're saying what will be about $40 Million [[$84 to 44/year).

Glad to clear that up... proceed on.

[Dexlin]

Question...

With the announcement of Ron Freeland as CEO of DDOT -- actually, CEO of the private management company/consultancy that now oversees the management of DDOT [[Envisurage, LLC), which I guess means the elimination of the "director" post -- it was announced that DDOT was introducing 46 new "fuel-efficient" buses it had ordered quite a bit ago. Anyway, my question is whether anyone knows the exact make and model [[are they New Flyers?) of the new buses, and what if "fuel-efficient" means that they are hybrids, or simply souped-up regular diesels?

[antongast]

Question...

With the announcement of Ron Freeland as CEO of DDOT -- actually, CEO of the private management company/consultancy that now oversees the management of DDOT [[Envisurage, LLC), which I guess means the elimination of the "director" post -- it was announced that DDOT was introducing 46 new "fuel-efficient" buses it had ordered quite a bit ago. Anyway, my question is whether anyone knows the exact make and model [[are they New Flyers?) of the new buses, and what if "fuel-efficient" means that they are hybrids, or simply souped-up regular diesels?

They're Gilligs, and I'm pretty sure they're conventional diesels. This video pans over one starting about 50 seconds in:

[bc_n_dtown]

Question...it was announced that DDOT was introducing 46 new "fuel-efficient" buses it had ordered quite a bit ago. Anyway, my question is whether anyone knows the exact make and model [[are they New Flyers?) of the new buses, and what if "fuel-efficient" means that they are hybrids, or simply souped-up regular diesels?

The 46 new DDOT coaches are manufactured by GILLIG Corp. out of Hayward, CA. Over 15 have been delivered so far since the beginning of the month, but of course have to first be prep for service, with electronic fareboxes and emergency "TransitMaster" communication equipment being installed, along with state vehicle registration work being completed. The series pilot coach #1201 was delivered back in November for inspection and approval by DDOT.

The first 42 coaches, model G27D102N4, are what Gillig calls "clean-diesel" coaches [[otherwise known as ultra-low sulphur diesel [[ULSD)), while "four" hybrid diesel-electric coaches are also to be delivered with this order.

These photos were taken of pilot coach #1201 back in December. The new deliveries differ slightly.



[[www.DetroitTransitHistory.info photos)

[bc_n_dtown]

Coach #1210 was one of the recent coaches delivered in early February, and differs slightly from the pilot coach above. They were even delivered with protective shields for the drivers.


[[photo courtesy of DDOT operator G. Brown)

[bc_n_dtown]

raw video from WXYZ-TV: It looks like these women weren't too happy about DDOT service changes or the service in general, and made it known at one of the public hearings held today.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...-route-changes

[Danny]

Those two ladies wore very upset of the D-DOT bus cut situation that they spoke in load "Teddy Roosevelt-like stage voice". If the Detroit City Council and the D-DOT Board of Directors made their final decision. IT'S RECALL TIME!

[trotwood]

raw video from WXYZ-TV: It looks like these women weren't too happy about DDOT service changes or the service in general, and made it known at one of the public hearings held today.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...-route-changes

I don't believe there's anything those women said regarding the DDOT situation that I disagree with!!
What the administration is doing to the residents of Detroit[[being allowed to do without challenge by the city council)is downright cruel&criminal in my opinion. Odd thing is,as one of the women in the video points out,so many[[Bing&council)are always banging the "come to Detroit" drum yet they seem to be going out of their way to ensure just the opposite will occur.
God help Detroit&it's residents and visitors......they city officials sure as heck won't. Shame on David Bing&the nine Detroit City Council members.SHAME!!

[Dexlin]

raw video from WXYZ-TV: It looks like these women weren't too happy about DDOT service changes or the service in general, and made it known at one of the public hearings held today.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...-route-changes

Thank you so much for the info, bc. Greatly appreciated. I see looking at the company's wiki page that they have two, basic transit buses: the regular low-floor and the hybrid-electric low-floor. It appears Detroit is getting some of both, though, I wonder why they aren't just going hybrid-electric. Where I live, they are trading out diesel for hybrid electric whenever they can. Sure, it costs a bit more up front, but it saves down the road because the hybride-electric requires MUCH LESS maintence, and it would seem that Detroit in particular would want to do that.

As for the public hearings, while I, myself, don't ever yell, I totally get what they are talking about regardless of how they handled themselve. I was appalled to hear that aside from the cuts, that DDOT had the nerve to change the format of the actual hearing. It's dehumanizing and insulting. When you make these kind of cuts, you're going to hear righteous indignation and you should hear it. To send them to easels to "display" their feelings on a piece of paper is about condescending and patronizing as you can get. They might as well have not even had the meeting. That's a coward's move what they did there.

Does anyone when public hearings have been scheduled for House Bill 5209 or Senate Bill 909, or have they not even made it out of committee, yet? I'm going to make sure my local reps and senators hear about, and make sure those on the respective transportation communities in each house get moving. This simply can not wait.