I left Detroit in 1965 and have been back once since then.

[p69rrh51]

Population started to decline significantly prior to the time period you are speaking of [[I know there were massive impacts due to freeways, GI Bill, etc) but the city saw a massive outmigration starting in the early fifties yet everyone from that time speaks as if it were heaven on earth.

Forget about the 1950's as the start of the massive outmigrations. My research shows the beginning of the "massive outmigration" started in the 1920's.

[DeLemur]

Well, I do know that Detroit. I was born and raised there. I've been in NYC since 1980. All I know since then is what I've seen in some visits and what's in forums like this one. I'm retiring this fall and coming home. It should be interesting. It's where I want to be.

I think it will be interesting. Enjoy!

[archfan]

Forget about the 1950's as the start of the massive outmigrations. My research shows the beginning of the "massive outmigration" started in the 1920's.

I'd like to hear more about what you've found. Was that the era of the growing street car suburbs like Royal Oak and Farmington? Was the outflow suspended by the Depression and
WWII?

[Hermod]

I'd like to hear more about what you've found. Was that the era of the growing street car suburbs like Royal Oak and Farmington? Was the outflow suspended by the Depression and WWII?

Some people actually began moving in the early 1900s. Detroit had one of the best electric interurban networks in the country with frequent service to out the lines of Gratiot, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, and Fort. Out migration slowed to a trickle in the 1930s with the collapse of the interurbans and the general impoverishment of the depression. No one was building houses and car purchases were difficult for people. During WWII, there was a great in migration to Detroit and the war rationing made it difficult to build a house and impossible to buy a car [[plus gas rationing made it difficult to put many miles on the car.

So, postwar, you had Detroit crammed to the gills. Many couples married during the depression had moved in with one or the other set of parents and the war workers had grabbed whatever they could in the way of shelter. There was a huge demand for housing. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, most vacant land was snapped up for building [[even single lots). Returning servicemen had their GI bill while those who had worked in industry during the war had large stashes of cash that they earned from overtime but hadn't been able to spend for rationing. House and cars sold in vast quantities in the area and as land became scarce in Detroit, the inner suburbs blossomed as cars provided mobility.

Another factor was that industrial facilities in Detroit had become outmoded. Many companies found cheaper land outside the city and built new facilities either to expand of to replace their city facilities. This would inspire a building boom for residential near the new facility.

It probably wasn't until the 1960s that the outflow became race based as many felt they were being overwhelmed..

[jcole]

Yeah, I really miss getting stuck in traffic behind one of those steaming slag trucks that used to roll around the SW side on Dix/Toledo. And how the river was brown.

Those were the days.

And the yellow sky; don't forget that.

[Gistok]

IF you truly believe this, you couldn't be more ignorant about Detroit's past.

35 years ago downtown/midtown had department stores and retail corridors, far more pedestrian activity, and far more residents and workers. Woodward was much more active 35 years ago.

You always seem to be talking before you think... 35 years ago... all the stores along Woodward were only open on the first floor... everything above was rotting away. I remember working at Bakers Shoes in 1977, and the pigeon droppings were coming down as low as the empty 2nd floor of our 8 story building along lower Woodward. All the stores had decaying and empty upper floors. I used to park my car across from the Fox, and walk the few blocks to the store... I passed by empty office towers and hotels back then. The Statler and Tuller were already empty, as was the United Artist Building when AAA left in 1973 for Dearborn. The Whitney and Broderick Buildings were fast emptying out. Some of the downtown theatres [[that weren't shuttered) were showing exploitation and Kung Fu movies to barely keep afloat... the owner of the Grand Circus just walked away and abandoned the Grand Circus Theatre in 1985.... the Michigan Theatre was being gutted in 1977, the United Artists was closed in 1972.... Chuck Forbes was already starting to buy buildings [[the Gem/Century for $5K). Hudson's on its' downward spiral for over a decade.

Only the outer city neighborhoods were doing significantly well. The city was rotting... from the inside out... very slowly but perceptibly. So when you talk about people being ignorant... think before you post.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

^^ Bham1982 knows all...unless he was born in 1982, he must be in his mid 70's or older. He knows Southeastern Mich demographics, or anywhere for that matter, better than most, so if you dispute what he says, it's at your own peril....

[Hermod]

You always seem to be talking before you think... 35 years ago... all the stores along Woodward were only open on the first floor... everything above was rotting away. I remember working at Bakers Shoes in 1977, and the pigeon droppings were coming down as low as the empty 2nd floor of our 8 story building along lower Woodward. All the stores had decaying and empty upper floors. I used to park my car across from the Fox, and walk the few blocks to the store... I passed by empty office towers and hotels back then. The Statler and Tuller were already empty, as was the United Artist Building when AAA left in 1973 for Dearborn. The Whitney and Broderick Buildings were fast emptying out. Some of the downtown theatres [[that weren't shuttered) were showing exploitation and Kung Fu movies to barely keep afloat... the owner of the Grand Circus just walked away and abandoned the Grand Circus Theatre in 1985.... the Michigan Theatre was being gutted in 1977, the United Artists was closed in 1972.... Chuck Forbes was already starting to buy buildings [[the Gem/Century for $5K). Hudson's on its' downward spiral for over a decade.

Only the outer city neighborhoods were doing significantly well. The city was rotting... from the inside out... very slowly but perceptibly. So when you talk about people being ignorant... think before you post.

Those upper floors and the office towers were occupied by lawyers, doctors, dentists, investment advisors, and accountants. They found that their 1950s to 1970s customers preferred free standing buildings with ample parking. I remember my orthodontist moved from the Broderick tower out to Seven Mile and Meyers around 1951 just for that reason.

[Bham1982]

You always seem to be talking before you think... 35 years ago... all the stores along Woodward were only open on the first floor... everything above was rotting away.

So, according to you, vacant lots and empty blocks are better than first-floor retail only? Huh? Only in NYC is multilevel retail the norm in the U.S.

There's basically no viable retail in downtown/midtown. There are a few stores here and there, but no corridors. Back then there were two department stores [[Hudsons and Crowleys) and Woodward was lined with viable retail until the early 1990's. Lunchtime crowds in the 1980's were still pretty thick between Woodward and Washington Blvd. Now that's all gone.

There were hundreds of thousands of more people living in Detroit back then. The idea that a far more populous city is a less vibrant one is truly bizarre. If Detroit ever shows any population gain, even if like +12 people, it will be trumpted on DYes like the Second Coming, but add a half million people to the region's core, and apparently it's meaningless.

[dtowncitylover]

So, according to you, vacant lots and empty blocks are better than first-floor retail only? Huh? Only in NYC is multilevel retail the norm in the U.S.

There's basically no viable retail in downtown/midtown. There are a few stores here and there, but no corridors. Back then there were two department stores [[Hudsons and Crowleys) and Woodward was lined with viable retail until the early 1990's. Lunchtime crowds in the 1980's were still pretty thick between Woodward and Washington Blvd. Now that's all gone.

There were hundreds of thousands of more people living in Detroit back then. The idea that a far more populous city is a less vibrant one is truly bizarre. If Detroit ever shows any population gain, even if like +12 people, it will be trumpted on DYes like the Second Coming, but add a half million people to the region's core, and apparently it's meaningless.

No there was one desperate department store downtown store that announced their closing in 1981 for February 1982. Crowley's New Center really catered to the workers in the Fisher and Cadillac Place. Crowleys Downtown closed in 77 I believe and was torn down within the year.

Just because there were hundreds of thousands more residents doesn't mean much for downtown because they were leaving Detroit soon or couldn't afford downtown shops, which is why they were closing.

Lunchtime crowds don't mean much for the day-long stream of crowds major cities see, for what Detroit say pre-1980. There's lunchtime crowds right now, so? How do we get constant crowds? Transit, destinations, and cohesiveness between blocks

[cla1945]

Detroit was a great place to grow up in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's. I was born, raised, worshipped there, was educated there, got a good job with Detroit, married, stayed in the City for over 50 years until retirement. I would have stayed in that little bungalow in the 48205 if it weren't for the thugs who came in and took over the neighborhoods. The intimidation, the break-ins, the drive by shootings, the fights were all too much for me to want to stay there with a family...that's why I left.
I love what Detroit once was....not what it turned out to be. Hooray for Downtown, I'm glad to see it beginning to thrive, but look beyond the newly renovated apartments and condos, look to the eastside...there you can really see what Detroit is. A wasteland. At least I have my memories of family and growing up and raising kids there. I'll always be a Detroiter, no matter where I hang my hat! But live back in the 48205...not a chance in hell.

[Bobl]

It's all been covered in this thread. No single reason for the demise. The final nail in the coffin, in my observation, was the arrival of crack cocaine. The post above describes the result of this scourge, as it affected 48205, and other areas. It was the end.

[p69rrh51]

I'd like to hear more about what you've found. Was that the era of the growing street car suburbs like Royal Oak and Farmington? Was the outflow suspended by the Depression and
WWII?

Exactly, most of the subdivisions we think of as being created after WWII were created in the 1920's. The two intervening acts mentioned above helped to slow the migration.

[p69rrh51]

Some people actually began moving in the early 1900s. Detroit had one of the best electric interurban networks in the country with frequent service to out the lines of Gratiot, Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, and Fort. Out migration slowed to a trickle in the 1930s with the collapse of the interurbans and the general impoverishment of the depression. No one was building houses and car purchases were difficult for people. During WWII, there was a great in migration to Detroit and the war rationing made it difficult to build a house and impossible to buy a car [[plus gas rationing made it difficult to put many miles on the car.

So, postwar, you had Detroit crammed to the gills. Many couples married during the depression had moved in with one or the other set of parents and the war workers had grabbed whatever they could in the way of shelter. There was a huge demand for housing. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, most vacant land was snapped up for building [[even single lots). Returning servicemen had their GI bill while those who had worked in industry during the war had large stashes of cash that they earned from overtime but hadn't been able to spend for rationing. House and cars sold in vast quantities in the area and as land became scarce in Detroit, the inner suburbs blossomed as cars provided mobility.

Another factor was that industrial facilities in Detroit had become outmoded. Many companies found cheaper land outside the city and built new facilities either to expand of to replace their city facilities. This would inspire a building boom for residential near the new facility.

It probably wasn't until the 1960s that the outflow became race based as many felt they were being overwhelmed..

Construction did not "slow to a trickle" during the depression. While it did slow down in the 1930's and almost stopped in 1935 and part of 1936 houses were being built and subdivisions were bring created during the depression. Especially after 1936 when construction started to boom as Detroit started gearing up for war work and continued into 1942.

[erikd]

So, according to you, vacant lots and empty blocks are better than first-floor retail only? Huh? Only in NYC is multilevel retail the norm in the U.S.

There's basically no viable retail in downtown/midtown. There are a few stores here and there, but no corridors. Back then there were two department stores [[Hudsons and Crowleys) and Woodward was lined with viable retail until the early 1990's. Lunchtime crowds in the 1980's were still pretty thick between Woodward and Washington Blvd. Now that's all gone.

There were hundreds of thousands of more people living in Detroit back then. The idea that a far more populous city is a less vibrant one is truly bizarre. If Detroit ever shows any population gain, even if like +12 people, it will be trumpted on DYes like the Second Coming, but add a half million people to the region's core, and apparently it's meaningless.

I think this is mostly a disagreement on perspective, specifically concerning the state of downtown in 1981 vs 2016. I would agree that downtown still had more to offer in 1981, but it was in an obvious state of rapid decline.

While 2016 downtown may have not yet regained the level that was still holding on in 1981 downtown, it is quite obvious that 2016 downtown is in the midst of a growth phase, which is the exact opposite of 1981 downtown, which was in a major decline phase.

It seems pretty clear that downtown is on a significant upswing, and it is very reasonable to expect that 2021 downtown will be more vibrant and active than 1986 downtown.

[erikd]

Detroit was a great place to grow up in the late 40's, 50's and early 60's. I was born, raised, worshipped there, was educated there, got a good job with Detroit, married, stayed in the City for over 50 years until retirement. I would have stayed in that little bungalow in the 48205 if it weren't for the thugs who came in and took over the neighborhoods. The intimidation, the break-ins, the drive by shootings, the fights were all too much for me to want to stay there with a family...that's why I left.
I love what Detroit once was....not what it turned out to be. Hooray for Downtown, I'm glad to see it beginning to thrive, but look beyond the newly renovated apartments and condos, look to the eastside...there you can really see what Detroit is. A wasteland. At least I have my memories of family and growing up and raising kids there. I'll always be a Detroiter, no matter where I hang my hat! But live back in the 48205...not a chance in hell.

This is the common story of American cities in the post-war era. Tens of millions of Americans had the same experience in Chicago, NYC, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, LA, Newark, Philly, Memphis, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, DC, etc.

For those of us who are too young to remember the time when American cities were not wastelands of crime and poverty, there are no fond memories to cherish, and only the hope that we can rebuild and revitalize our formerly great cities.

[timinasia]

This is an interesting discussion. I left Detroit in 1971 to go to Emory Law School in Atlanta & only returned briefly once in 1991 to visit my dying mother. I have been an expatriate for a long time. I attended Redford High School & graduated in 1964 & attended Albion College & graduated in 1968. I am now 69 & have retired to Bangkok, but I have fond memories of Detroit. It was a great place to grow up. I am a Baby Boomer who grew up in the 1960s. Great Music. Good parks. I lived in a beautiful neighborhood [[Rosedale Park--6 Mile & Evergreen). I left not due to Detroit's decline [[I hadn't noticed a population or business decline then), it was the "Doughnut Hole" effect: beautiful suburbs surrounding an inner city that no one cared about, especially compared to Atlanta--a bright, new city that everyone is proud of. The reasons that I haven't returned to Detroit are that I am affluent in Thailand [[I would be poor in the States) & I probably couldn't withstand another winter at my age, too much crime & my wife, who is Thai, would miss her family. Also, the States are much too religious & conservative & too chaotic politically for me.

[cla1945]

This is the common story of American cities in the post-war era. Tens of millions of Americans had the same experience in Chicago, NYC, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, LA, Newark, Philly, Memphis, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, DC, etc.

For those of us who are too young to remember the time when American cities were not wastelands of crime and poverty, there are no fond memories to cherish, and only the hope that we can rebuild and revitalize our formerly great cities.

I am fortunate to have those good memories of Detroit and am not confronted with the legacy that will be left to the younger generation to remember. It's certainly your loss, sorry to say.

[eastland]

IF you truly believe this, you couldn't be more ignorant about Detroit's past.

35 years ago downtown/midtown had department stores and retail corridors, far more pedestrian activity, and far more residents and workers. Woodward was much more active 35 years ago.

Bham -- I started working downtown in the Michigan Mutual building in Grand Circus Park in 1981. Woodward was a ghost-town, despite Hudsons. Downtown is far more vibrant today than back then.

[beachboy]

I think this is mostly a disagreement on perspective, specifically concerning the state of downtown in 1981 vs 2016.

Most cultural discussions are disagreements on perspective ... my family was from the Thumb, but we visited Detroit frequently and stayed with relatives there [[1950s). So we had a different view than "city folks" - we treasured our visits to the D - didn't have to struggle for a living there. Nice, until the late 1960s when "things seemed to fall apart". Also, I was a kid from the stix, so most everything in any city would've seemed BIG and WOW!. Then one crashes into teenagerhood and the magic loses its shine and becomes passe' ... Paradise Lost.

For some DYers, Dtown was magical and wonderful. The country seemed to be more orderly "back then" [[in the 50s and early 60s, before JFK was murdered). Maybe that's how some of us still remember it ... Hudson's at Xmas [[how many threads on DY?) ... shopping downtown ... old churches with their creaks and fragrances ... a favorite place to eat - or work ... nice parks and schools ... and school daze with friends...? How much nostalgia?

But there really was no Detroit Paradise ... just a big dirty, smoggy pile of people sweating out a living, with our parents trying to make a better life for us than they had ... and helping us to see it in a happier way ... It's different when Mom and Dad are protecting us ... and when Dad comes back from The War and wants to build a world of goodness and peace. Then we had fun at school, got our first job, and the one after ... then find out what "real life" is and Toyland incrementally turns to sh*t ... with a bit of an afterglow. Not too funny how [[for some of us) that happened as Detroit was doing the same thing...

Just a few rambling Jack Daniels Thoughts on a warm, humid Sunday nite. My apologies for babbling...

[Junjie]

This is the common story of American cities in the post-war era. Tens of millions of Americans had the same experience in Chicago, NYC, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, LA, Newark, Philly, Memphis, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, DC, etc.

For those of us who are too young to remember the time when American cities were not wastelands of crime and poverty, there are no fond memories to cherish, and only the hope that we can rebuild and revitalize our formerly great cities.

Seems a bit broad brush, don't you think? I'd hardly call DC, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, LA, Philly "wastelands of crime and poverty." Plenty of fond memories being created every day, right here in urban America.

[Detroit Stylin]

Seems a bit broad brush, don't you think? I'd hardly call DC, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, LA, Philly "wastelands of crime and poverty." Plenty of fond memories being created every day, right here in urban America.

In the 70s and 80s they all were

[mwilbert]

Bham -- I started working downtown in the Michigan Mutual building in Grand Circus Park in 1981. Woodward was a ghost-town, despite Hudsons. Downtown is far more vibrant today than back then.

It really depends what you think "vibrancy" is. There was still more retail on Woodward in 1981 than there is now, and you probably saw more people on the streets at lunchtime. On the other hand, by 5:30 or 6 it was pretty much completely empty, as for all practical purposes no one lived downtown, nor was there much of anything in terms of evening dining or entertainment. From that standpoint it seems much livelier now.

[Hermod]

Seems a bit broad brush, don't you think? I'd hardly call DC, Chicago, NYC, San Francisco, LA, Philly "wastelands of crime and poverty." Plenty of fond memories being created every day, right here in urban America.

If the government had moved out of Washington DC like the factories moved out of Detroit or closed up shop, Washington would be like Detroit-on-the Potomac. The cities that you named [[except possibly Philly) had some kind of an "anchor" for their downtown. Detroit had no anchor and the downtown almost ceased to exist until the current "Potemkin Village" began to be built. Detroit's strength was in their factories and their strong neighborhoods with their own stand-alone retail. Unfortunately, that has been destroyed.

[Junjie]

If the government had moved out of Washington DC like the factories moved out of Detroit or closed up shop, Washington would be like Detroit-on-the Potomac. The cities that you named [[except possibly Philly) had some kind of an "anchor" for their downtown. Detroit had no anchor and the downtown almost ceased to exist until the current "Potemkin Village" began to be built. Detroit's strength was in their factories and their strong neighborhoods with their own stand-alone retail. Unfortunately, that has been destroyed.

Well, yeah. There's a reason I didn't list Detroit.

The person was lamenting being "too young to remember the time when American cities were not wastelands of crime and poverty". I was pointing out that there are plenty of American cities - the vast majority even - that are not such.

[[And now I'll probably get it from others for implicitly calling Detroit a "wasteland"... apologies to those folks in advance and it's not a word I would have chosen. But I'm not going to deny the condition of the city in comparison to those I listed.)