While in Flint, Don't drink their water

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

If you really believe Snyder made a 'conscious decision' here, you're no better than those who call Obama a communist Muslim.

For the umpteenth time, nobody thinks Snyder made a "conscious decision" to poison people. But his political philosophy is what put the entire train wreck in motion.

Earlier you stated that you did not know what Snyder knew and when he knew it. Perhaps because he is not answering those questions in an honest and forthright manner? And he certainly won't have to in front of Congress, will he?

[Gannon]

Yes and if we get the "socialism" utopia that everybody wants and the government owns everything, you won't be able to sue anybody.

You are a programmed drone. If everybody really wanted the economic boogie-man of what you obviously don't understand anyways, we'd already have it.

Geez, a lifetime of popular programming just glares out of your ignorance.

Feel the Bern, dude. What we want is Democratic Socialism...a return to what Capitalism was before the corporations were empowered to turn it into an Oligarchy.


As for the continuation of this crisis coverage, I'd say the fine folks at the MetroTimes have a great response to Snydley's grinning gang.

http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/arch...-a-pr-disaster

[Gannon]

Photo courtesy governor's office...

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Photo courtesy governor's office...

Before I clicked on the link, I said to myself "who are those pasty-faced, mostly chubby white folks?" Then I saw they were GR area GOPers. As a former Grand Rapidian, [[as well as a former Detroiter) I gagged a bit.

[detroitsgwenivere]

What the fuck are they all smiling at??

[Wesley Mouch]

Michigan may not be able to sue Michigan and the federal government may not be abke to sue Michigan,, but the DOJ and the state attorney general can sue individuals who work for Michigan [[see Rod Blagojevich and Illinois as an example).

We'd need an expert to weigh in, but Illinois's dear governor I believe was criminally charged -- it wasn't a civil suit. Big difference.

The idea of sovereign immunity isn't to protect individuals, but is to protect our system. You still have everyone who disagrees with an elected official filing lawsuits. The courts would be doing nothing but handling those cases. Can you imagine how many lawsuits would be filed against Obama.

Here's some reading on Sovereign Immunity: http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...liability.aspx
More centrally, we have a method for handling the non-criminal acts. The ballot box.

Now if it turns out the Snyder did intentionally poison Flint residents and proof is found, the system will be able to remove and/or punish him under existing rules. Rather than Ron B., the example might be Richard N or Kwame K.

[313WX]

We'd need an expert to weigh in, but Illinois's dear governor I believe was criminally charged -- it wasn't a civil suit. Big difference.

The idea of sovereign immunity isn't to protect individuals, but is to protect our system. You still have everyone who disagrees with an elected official filing lawsuits. The courts would be doing nothing but handling those cases. Can you imagine how many lawsuits would be filed against Obama.

Here's some reading on Sovereign Immunity: http://www.ncsl.org/research/transpo...liability.aspx
More centrally, we have a method for handling the non-criminal acts. The ballot box.

Now if it turns out the Snyder did intentionally poison Flint residents and proof is found, the system will be able to remove and/or punish him under existing rules. Rather than Ron B., the example might be Richard N or Kwame K.

Numerous civil lawsuits have been filed against Snyder already, so there's the answer to that part of the question.

As far as the ballot box, I'm quite sure if it's possible, the people of Flint and those who are upset that Snyder's negligance and then potential cover up will cost them billions more of their hard-earned money want him gone much sonner than 2018, by any legal means necessary. If that means having to prove he did something criminal and being charged accordingly [[and two I can think of immediately are criminal negligance and child endangerment) then so be it.

[Jimaz]

Thom has two Michigan stories today, one on the Flint water crisis and the other on the Detroit schools crisis. He points out their common Emergency Manager connection.

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Thom Hartmann on Economic & Labor News: 2/1/16

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

"Government should be run more like a business."

I wonder if Governor Snyder had the wrong take-away when he watched "Erin Brockovich" and thought we ARE supposed to taint the water, following the PG&E business model?

[Jimaz]

"Government should be run more like a business."

I wonder if Governor Snyder had the wrong take-away when he watched "Erin Brockovich" and thought we ARE supposed to taint the water, following the PG&E business model?

I was wondering something similar but in a more Orwellian sense.

The term "Emergency Manager" might be [[mis?)interpreted as one who is appointed with the secret intent that they exacerbate a relatively minor emergency until it becomes a desired and sufficiently disastrous catastrophe.

Hell, that would still be "managing," right? So it wouldn't be a lie — just a shrewdly concealed truth.

It reminds me of the time someone tried to threaten me with the words "You better do such-and-such or we'll give you the kind of help you don't want."

Of course I took that as a challenge and did exactly the opposite of what they wanted. I did the right thing. They ended up with egg on their face.

Triumphant defiance can be its own reward.

[ABetterDetroit]

I thought this was interesting. Clearly the attorney general has weighed in on whose fault this disaster is.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...kers/79611228/

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » House Republicans Won't Invite Snyder to Flint Water Hearing

Right. Because the guy in charge couldn't possibly supply any information useful to the investigation.

[michmina]

Hmmmm....

[[WXYZ) - 7 Action News has learned Darnell Earley the current Emergency Manager for the Detroit Public Schools and the former Emergency Manager for Flint is refusing to testify at a Congressional Committee hearing on Wednesday morning in Washington, D. C.

Congressional sources are telling 7 Investigator Jim Kiertzner that committee members were informed this evening that Earley has hired an attorney and it is not clear if he will not show up for the hearing.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/darnell-ear...onal-committee

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Sounds like lots of people have things to hide.

[brizee]

Well the FBI is joining the party.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tion/79683610/

And Darnell Early just put in his resignation.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/f...cted-to-resign

Things are about to get entertaining at least.

And Snyder thought he was SOOOO much fucking smarter than everybody else.

[ABetterDetroit]

Well the FBI is joining the party.
http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...tion/79683610/

This is the best of news so far on a disaster subject. Only thing that would be better is if these celebrities pooled some cash and started replacing lead service lines to houses that have children in residence of the homes in Flint. ASAP.

[Gannon]

The following is from my Ypsilanti friend...I couldn't have said it better.

A brief historical start to all of this - via a public referendum, 52% of Michigan voters voted against the Emergency Manager laws as even a reasonable premise. 52%, which must mean a bunch of moderate Republicans voted it in as well. Despite that, the Teapublican legislature, literally in the middle of the night, behind locked doors on a New Year’s Eve in a lame duck session, voted to restore it, strengthen it and attach a "ceremonial" $5 million funding appropriation making it bullet proof from future public referendum repeal. So much for representative democracy.

The city of Flint was under the control of an EM not the local elected government for years [[5 EM’s since 2011). The EM's are handpicked by the governor. The city government NEVER planned, authorized or approved the use of the Flint River as the primary water source - it was to provide a maximum of less than 13% of the replaced water supply, the bulk of which was supposed to come from the new Lake Huron feed negotiated with KWA. The EM decided otherwise regardless of multiple documented water analysis going back almost 30 years. They dropped a 50 year agreement with the Detroit water system and were then declared in default. Detroit gave them a YEAR to negotiate a temporary lease-feed agreement, eventually even at a discount. The EM chose otherwise. Even the GM plant stopped using the water due to its corrosive properties; serious corporate “hint” in my opinion.

Are there others in the chain? Yes. The MDEQ clearly manipulated and hid information and there are others responsible as well, but these are [[mostly) again, appointed positions. We will find out who they are.

Additionally, there are now queries as to how this may tie into two other "schemes"; one involves the parallel time line of the Detroit bankruptcy and its water system, and an attempt to either privatize it or create regional control if it couldn't be sold off [[which happened). The other question involves the pipeline deal with KWA and whether some deemed it as a greater profit center to support the up-and-coming fracking wells nearby [[note the "route"). Hopefully this can verified soon as well, either way.

But the bottom line in this case is "the buck stops here" as -stated- by our governor, even if his personally appointed staff failed him. With that statement, he should have announced his resignation at the same time.
This isn't, nor will be, a unique American story if we don't consider the lack of infrastructure improvement or the effect of our misguided concept that privatization cures all.

Most people don't even understand the root causes of the demise of Flint, Detroit, Gary, and dozens more. It isn't due to "cities run by Democrats" it's due to corporate greed and the offshoring of the manufacturing industries that these towns were built on. Mass unemployment and loss of the primary tax base. And if you believe these virtuous captains of corporate industry were predominately "liberal" or "Democrat", then I have some nice bottled water [[made in Flint) to sell you at a great price...

[Wesley Mouch]

The following is from my Ypsilanti friend...I couldn't have said it better.

I think its important to decide if this is a political football, or is this an urban policy crisis.

To me, blame needs to be assessed. Absolutely. But politics should be kept away. It has polluted the air was much as the water in Flint was polluted.

I respect your opinion on EM and Democratic blame for our cities. I strongly disagree on the blame. And I oppose EMs not because its viewed as 'non-democratic', but because I believe they sustain avoidance of the moral hazards in governance.

We differ in opinion, but I don't think we differ much in results. I am in favor of a strong social safety net. I favor cash payments to the poor [[rather than complex, bureaucratic entitlements).

In this case, its possible that the EM and Republican administration of our State screwed up. But I don't see that as confirmation that the ideas of conservative urban reform and wrong. Same thing in reverse. Democratic urban policies sometimes fail. That doesn't mean their idea is wrong. Maybe the nanny state is the right approach. I don't think so -- but I don't take one single example of failure and assume that the left is oh so wrong.

The attack on Snyder may be well-deserved, or not. But I'm pretty sure its well orchestrated and politically motivated. I don't want to see a future where the left continues to fail our cities. Snyder and Co., IMO, was trying to do good. That they failed doesn't mean that they're wrong about how to address urban issues. And it doesn't mean you're right either.

Let's keep discussing the issues -- and let's not kick people while they're down just because they don't share our politics.

[bust]

I think its important to decide if this is a political football, or is this an urban policy crisis....

Wesley, surely you agree it is crucial for government to be transparent to its citizens, particularly at a time like this. This is not political football. This is citizenry demanding answers for the harm they suffered from the officials elected to serve them, and worse: from the unelected emergency managers who were undemocratically put in place.

This is not just a crisis of urban policy, this is a crisis of democracy.

The law passed to authorize the emergency managers, the manner in which it was passed, and the way it was crafted to prevent repeal by public referendum as had already proven to be the public desire -- that is indefensible. Even if you attribute the water crisis to a series of honest mistakes -- which seems incredibly far fetched to me -- it is not worthy of our democracy to set up such a veritable autocracy, nor for government to obstruct transparency. Wrongs were committed and answers are clearly due.

We should expect full cooperation. And from every official of any party from every level of government and agency involved. We should not accept anything less.

[oladub]

Six other cities in Michigan have lead levels even higher than Flint's. Somehow the national media didn't pick up on that.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...els-lead-flint

[jerrytimes]

One of the worst things about this whole crisis in Flint other than the obvious [[the polluted water) is that people seem more concerned with getting someone removed from office, or jailed than actually getting this problem resolved. Get the damn water clean, worry about the congressional hearings later! Typical government and medial bullsh!t.

[bust]

One of the worst things about this whole crisis in Flint other than the obvious [[the polluted water) is that people seem more concerned with getting someone removed from office, or jailed than actually getting this problem resolved. Get the damn water clean, worry about the congressional hearings later! Typical government and medial bullsh!t.

Good point.

Why are there lead pipes in the first place?
Where else do lead pipes exist?
What is this, Roman times?

[313WX]

Per Elijah Cummings on The Rachel Maddow Show, he and the other Democrats are now really pressuring that political hack, Jason Chaffetz, to summon Snyder and the other EMs for testimony under oath.

And apparently, also per Elijah Cummings, Chaffetz is now working on doing just that.

[Hermod]

Good point.

Why are there lead pipes in the first place?
Where else do lead pipes exist?
What is this, Roman times?

The word "plumber" comes from "plumbum" which is Latin for "lead". If you remember from high school chemistry class, the symbol for lead on the periodic table was Pb.

[Gistok]

One of the worst things about this whole crisis in Flint other than the obvious [[the polluted water) is that people seem more concerned with getting someone removed from office, or jailed than actually getting this problem resolved. Get the damn water clean, worry about the congressional hearings later! Typical government and medial bullsh!t.

You didn't read a single post on this thread, did you? And I take it you didn't read any of the links either?

Because IF YOU HAD... you would have noticed that the water connection is back onto the Detroit system... so they are getting clean water again.... but the damage of corrosion to the pipes has been done... and doesn't suddenly correct itself with a purer water source. The damage on the interior of the pipes won't go away unless all of the pipes in Flint get replaced. Got a spare $1.5 Billion to spare to do that? Someone's going to have to pay for this... how about all of us taxpayers chip in our fair share.... that'll go over real well....