Public bike sharing coming to Detroit

[Towne Cluber]

And any day now Meijer and Whole Foods will close up shop.

Or so I was told when they opened.

One can support bike sharing, Meijer, Whole Foods, etc. but also still be honest and realistic about the challenges they face in Detroit.

[Honky Tonk]

And any day now Meijer and Whole Foods will close up shop.

Or so I was told when they opened.

People think they're going to be stealing these bicycles to ride or sell. Same logic applies to stealing manhole covers because they're starting their own infrastructure system.

[noise]

One can support bike sharing, Meijer, Whole Foods, etc. but also still be honest and realistic about the challenges they face in Detroit.

It has nothing to do with support. It has to do with a false belief that it will effect any of them negatively enough to close or terminate service.

[corktownyuppie]

Last week there was a report of a person who showed up with a stolen bike and tried to sell it at the Hub in Midtown. Hub cross-referenced the serial numbers with a database of stolen bikes. WSU Public Safety was there within 3 minutes to arrest the guy.

I'm not saying there won't be problems with stolen bikes. But you can design solutions to that problem without too much effort.

10 years ago, would you have believed that WSU PD has response time under 90s for 911 calls? This bike thing is totally viable. It'll just take some creativity to deal with the crime problem.

[Towne Cluber]

It has nothing to do with support. It has to do with a false belief that it will effect any of them negatively enough to close or terminate service.

It has everything to do with support and the false belief that Whole Foods, Meijer, etc. would have been possible without extraordinary efforts that aren't necessary in places such as NYC [[or any other major city).

Again, we should support such efforts in our city without turning a blind eye towards real and significant problems, revisionist thinking, or viewing the world through rose-colored glasses.

[MSUguy]

It has everything to do with support and the false belief that Whole Foods, Meijer, etc. would have been possible without extraordinary efforts that aren't necessary in places such as NYC [[or any other major city).

Again, we should support such efforts in our city without turning a blind eye towards real and significant problems, revisionist thinking, or viewing the world through rose-colored glasses.

It has nothing to do with rose colored glasses, but not letting some overly, pessimistic anti-Detroit mindset override the fact that stealing bikes from bike share kiosks is extremely hard to do. If someone wants to steal a bike in this town they'd be much better off to stick with cutting the average lock off, than taking the time and effort to steal one these bikes.

[Towne Cluber]

It has nothing to do with rose colored glasses, but not letting some overly, pessimistic anti-Detroit mindset override the fact that stealing bikes from bike share kiosks is extremely hard to do. If someone wants to steal a bike in this town they'd be much better off to stick with cutting the average lock off, than taking the time and effort to steal one these bikes.

The tripe of labeling any type of discussion that doesn't follow a certain script as "anti-Detroit" doesn't help either and frankly, is played out.

Criminals are breaking through walls and roofs as well as driving vehicles through storefronts for relatively little gain, yet somehow bicycles in Detroit will be magically nearly immune from theft.

I think bike sharing is a good thing for Detroit, but there is no reason to believe that the program won't suffer from a higher than average [[NYC) theft rate.

[bust]

Towne Cluber, Honky Tonk, or anyone else with an answer: Where would someone who stole a bike share bike sell it, and how much would they get? This is a sincere question. It doesn't seem likely a bike share bike could be sold for more than it's worth in scrap, which isn't much, and it would be clear to any scrapyard that it's stolen. It can't be sold for parts because the parts are virtually all custom. But maybe I'm missing something.

Something else that discourages stealing bike share bikes: the program will serve an area limited to "the greater downtown", and if it works like others, will allow a bike to be used for a very short time before it must be checked in at a station. In New York you're allowed only 30 minutes, or 45 minutes if you've purchased an annual membership. This places a practical limit where it's reasonable to find someone riding one. Anyone with one far from a station reasonably looks suspicious and risks getting stopped by the police. In New York that risk is significant. I realize the policing situation is different in Detroit, but it can't be a good idea to give cops a reason to question you there either.

Also, let me dispel any illusions about the risk of bike theft in New York. It's a huge problem. It's well known that violent crime is now much lower in New York than in other big U.S. cities, but property crimes are still very common. Especially easy targets like bikes. The best I found to back that up is this:

http://unbreakable-bonds.blogspot.co...according.html

It's not a scientific study, but it supports what experiences have taught me all the years I've lived here.

The only bikes rarely stolen in New York are citi bikes. And anecdotally it seems when a citi bike is stolen it's a crime of opportunity because a tourist didn't return it to the bike dock properly or left it unlocked on the sidewalk while they stepped inside somewhere like they're used to doing in whatever idyllic part of the world they're from. I don't have to tell you there are many fewer tourists in Detroit, and fewer yet who have illusions crime in Detroit is not a problem.

And don't forget: stolen citi bikes are typically taken on a joy ride, abandoned, eventually found, and ultimately returned back into the system. Vandalism is a bigger issue. This was reported in the Gothamist article I linked to earlier.

I'm fully aware Detroit is very different from New York. But I'm still trying to figure out why a bike share program couldn't work there. Those who say it's too crime ridden are not providing a specific explanation.

There are clearly higher priorities for the city and State than a bike share program. But the money so far raised comes from private sources. And the grant just awarded comes from a federal "transportation alternatives" earmark [[if there's any valid concern about a misallocation of resources it's there). If corporate sponsorship and user fees can pay for the rest, why shouldn't we support it? It won't save the city, but it would be a nice thing for those who use it, and it doesn't seem like it will cause any problems.

[Dbest]

Indianapolis has a bike share program, probably would be the closest comparison. These things are for the benefit of Downtown Residents and Employees. I went to go rent one while visiting Indy a few months back, $2 an hour sounded super reasonable, too bad you have to first pay a $14 yearly membership fee. No thanks. They look kind of cool though.

[Shai_Hulud]

I think bike sharing is a good thing for Detroit, but there is no reason to believe that the program won't suffer from a higher than average [[NYC) theft rate.

We've had a bike sharing program for two years. There has been no mention of excess difficulty due to stolen bikes.

Towne Cluber, Honky Tonk, or anyone else with an answer: Where would someone who stole a bike share bike sell it, and how much would they get? This is a sincere question. It doesn't seem likely a bike share bike could be sold for more than it's worth in scrap, which isn't much, and it would be clear to any scrapyard that it's stolen. It can't be sold for parts because the parts are virtually all custom. But maybe I'm missing something.

They could sell them in the neighborhood for maybe $50 or scrap them.

DPD probably wouldn't stop you if you were riding one of these bikes somewhere you shouldn't be. But I don't imagine these are going to be ridden far outside of safe zones anyway.

[iheartthed]

Indianapolis has a bike share program, probably would be the closest comparison. These things are for the benefit of Downtown Residents and Employees. I went to go rent one while visiting Indy a few months back, $2 an hour sounded super reasonable, too bad you have to first pay a $14 yearly membership fee. No thanks. They look kind of cool though.

All of the newer bike share equipment look similar to that. The Citibike equipment in NYC looks almost exactly the same but with different colors. The cities which have older bike share programs -- mainly in Europe, but I think San Francisco's is relatively old -- are the ones where the equipment looks noticeably different.

[iheartthed]

It has nothing to do with rose colored glasses, but not letting some overly, pessimistic anti-Detroit mindset override the fact that stealing bikes from bike share kiosks is extremely hard to do. If someone wants to steal a bike in this town they'd be much better off to stick with cutting the average lock off, than taking the time and effort to steal one these bikes.

It's a waste of keystrokes to continue to respond to that.

[noise]

It has everything to do with support and the false belief that Whole Foods, Meijer, etc. would have been possible without extraordinary efforts that aren't necessary in places such as NYC [[or any other major city).

Again, we should support such efforts in our city without turning a blind eye towards real and significant problems, revisionist thinking, or viewing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Are you having trouble sticking to a point or do you simply not have one?

I wonder if all of the posts in the 10,000 other threads specifically about crime [[or hijacked by folks like you) fit into your "blind eye," "revisionist," or "rose-colored" narrative?

[Towne Cluber]

Are you having trouble sticking to a point or do you simply not have one?

I wonder if all of the posts in the 10,000 other threads specifically about crime [[or hijacked by folks like you) fit into your "blind eye," "revisionist," or "rose-colored" narrative?

I could ask you the exact same question. Also, do you always attack people that don't agree with you?

[bust]

They could sell them in the neighborhood for maybe $50 or scrap them.

That doesn't make sense to me. Any other nice bike might sell for that, but not a ride share bike. They're heavy, ugly, feature-limited, and risk unwanted attention from the police.

If stolen bike share bikes had this kind of value they'd be much more often stolen in New York, and wouldn't be found abandoned like usually happens. Why would they be worth more in Detroit? Is there a shortage of stolen bikes? If anyone ever pays so much the thief wouldn't be the stupid one.

Schwinns and Huffys are for sale for less on craigslist:
http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/bik/5192919238.html
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/bik/5189921867.html
http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/bik/5146181485.html

What do you think is their scrap value, and how easy or hard would it be to find a scrap yard that will take them? I read they're trying to address the illegal scrapping problem in Detroit by going after the scrap yards: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/16/us/crackdown-in-a-detroit-stripped-of-metal-parts.html?_r=0

By the way, that Times article is an interesting one. Targeting illegal scrapping by enforcing good behavior at the scrap yards seems like a good approach. I wonder how it's going, but since that's moving off topic I started a new thread:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...ing-in-Detroit

[Shai_Hulud]

That doesn't make sense to me. Any other nice bike might sell for that, but not a ride share bike. They're heavy, ugly, feature-limited, and risk unwanted attention from the police.

Okay, so maybe $20.

I'm not arguing that they are likely targets. However, there is always someone who will take the opportunity to steal something, and there is always someone who will buy stolen merchandise for a "deal."

Efforts to reign in the scrapyards have been lukewarm, but the scrap value of the bike is probably single digits.

For these and other reasons, I don't think theft is a major concern.

[wolverine]

Still don't think the bikes will make it to the scrapyard. The scrappers would have to render the bikes completely unrecognizable so that they aren't identified at the disposal facility. They'd also have to remove the GPS tracking information. The staff that monitors these bikes is not local, they monitor locations of bikes at all times and detect when a bike has been away from docking stations or leaves the regular service area. If a bike is left in a terminal position, they'll self investigate. When they identify the location, they'll contact the police.

I still think Michigan should institute a scrap metal ban to the public. As would some states that require contractors and homeowners to become registered to do certain types of construction work, so could the same principle be applied to recycling for $$. Limiting scrap metal exchange to licensed professionals and contractors wouldn't have a negative affect on most people. But it would be a costly and time intensive process of being insured, bonded and properly registered, leaving the business to well organized professionals that are easier to track and monitor

Scrapping can happen where I live, but if you are caught driving down a street with building supplies and metals in the back of your vehicle without proper plates, you better have a good explanation for the police officer pulling you over. Plus such a policy would finally get rid of the ridiculous and antiquated can deposit progam and replace it with a universal recycling ordinance.

[bust]

Okay, so maybe $20.

That sounds more like it. $20 might be the max some fool might pay for one. The thief is going to have to hustle to find him. He works a lot harder for his money than I do. Imagine if he put that kind of effort behind a real job.

[noise]

I could ask you the exact same question. Also, do you always attack people that don't agree with you?

You could ask, yes, which would answer my question of you.

Do we not agree? You haven't made a point yet. If you feel attacked by a simple, relevant question, I'd suggest you have other issues.

[Wesley Mouch]

I could ask you the exact same question. Also, do you always attack people that don't agree with you?

This forum, TC, is a microcosm of life. If you hold opinions different than the mainstream, you are likely to receive personal attacks. Funny, isn't it. Those who espouse diversity like to criticize when disagreed with. [[Not referring to you, Noise -- just social commentary.)

On topic, I really hope bike sharing works in Detroit. I believe it really can help locals and tourists see the city in a different way.

[noise]

This forum, TC, is a microcosm of life. If you hold opinions different than the mainstream, you are likely to receive personal attacks. Funny, isn't it. Those who espouse diversity like to criticize when disagreed with. [[Not referring to you, Noise -- just social commentary.)

On topic, I really hope bike sharing works in Detroit. I believe it really can help locals and tourists see the city in a different way.

Certainly. I'm not even sure we disagree. I'm just uncertain the point of the posts. As I made reference, similar comments took place in regards to Meijer and Whole Foods opening here and have done little to close either store. We all know crime is an issue. That said, it may not be a show-stopping issue with this endeavor, as it wasn't with Meijer or Whole Foods.

[Towne Cluber]

You could ask, yes, which would answer my question of you.

Do we not agree? You haven't made a point yet. If you feel attacked by a simple, relevant question, I'd suggest you have other issues.

Noise is an appropriate, yet unfortunate, name in regards to the discussion of this matter.

[Wesley Mouch]

Certainly. I'm not even sure we disagree. I'm just uncertain the point of the posts. As I made reference, similar comments took place in regards to Meijer and Whole Foods opening here and have done little to close either store. We all know crime is an issue. That said, it may not be a show-stopping issue with this endeavor, as it wasn't with Meijer or Whole Foods.

I don't think its a show-stopper anymore, but probably a go-slow state.

Retail likes to get ahead of their competition. As Detroit is showing signs that its opening up to outsiders and addressing its problems, WF & Meijer want to get in first.

With WF, I believe they have a national growth strategy of smaller '365' stores and a desire to branch into newer, smaller markets. Detroit was probably a good test bed. It turned out well, but I would guess that WF would have been willing to operate at a small loss if necessary to gain the experience. They believe they can more than double their store count. [[I think 400ish to about 1,100ish before they think they'd be saturated.)

[noise]

Noise is an appropriate, yet unfortunate, name in regards to the discussion of this matter.

How witty and original!

And you still haven't made a point.

[Wesley Mouch]

How witty and original!

And you still haven't made a point.

Would I make a point by changing my moniker to 'signal'?