Detroit UAW 2 Tier Wage System

[Willi]

The automotive workers in Mexico are getting employment and they are providing for their families.

The UAW would shoot themselves in the face if they pull the strike card in 2015. Auto companies will let the UAW rot with a picket sign in their hand. Production will just crank up over the border.

[Wesley Mouch]

You're a troll. Just face facts. Only your dumb ass can't see how US companies take advantage of Mexicans and give them $1 hour. Now shut up and get on your knees and open your mouth to the old white guys. You're good at doing that.

Your kind post made me wonder what the actual wages is these days. Very hard to find anything on wages in Mexico -- but no shortage of biased criticism.

autonews.com had the only post that seemed to provide decent insight. This is from 2012: "Even after years of Mexico’s cost of living inching up and American wages going down, Mexico’s labor rates are still a fraction of U.S. rates. Mexico’s auto assemblers nowadays pay $4 to $5 an hour. U.S. rates differ all over the map now, from $28 an hour in wages for the Detroit 3, to $14 an hour for new Tier 2 Detroit 3 workers, to hourly wage rates at the transplants that vary from $15 into the high $20s.". $4-5/hr. = about $640-800 per month. The average wage in the entire country is about $650 / month. So it seems that the auto plants are paying a competitive wage.

Worth noting that the supplier plants average around $3/hr [[including benefit), so they are not extremely well paid. But neither are they the USA right now, at around $12.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The jobs are only "wanted" if they pay the $20/hr of yesteryear, with a 60 hour work week, guaranteed by the union for the next 5 years.

Pendulum returned to reality with pay equal to an imbicile putting a brake drum on a hook for 8 hours a day. No skills = no pay today

Boy....You sound like a stand up guy...

[emu steve]

This is really a troll-thread. At best tangently related to Detroit [[but, of course, everything is related to something else, so it can be Metro Detroit employment, demographics, state and local tax receipts, unemployment insurance, foreclosure, broken homes, etc. etc.).

What I prefer is that cars be produced [[or assembled) close to the ultimate destination [[where sold).

Don't Chinese buy cars made in China? Don't Europeans buy cars made in Europe, even if the company is American owned?

I have no problem with Mexicans making and buying cars in that market. I do not think we should export 30K cars to a country with low cost of living and economics.

At least there is a linkage between the cost of the product [[e.g., car) and the income levels of those who buy the product [[e.g., car).

What would be disastrous would be to ask someone making $5 / hour in Mexico to pony up $25K for an American made car.

[emu steve]

UAW wages continue to decline via 2 Tier wage system and 2015 negotiations with Big 3 probably won't change the profit margins.
Car companies prefer to pay the bonuses,
since they are directly linked to sales performance

Unions are on their way out, pendulum has swung the other way, people just want to work without the politics of union presence

Automotive manufacturing in Mexico skirts the entire issue and the Big 3 laugh at the UAW
--- as do the other auto manufacturing corps.

I would like to remind folks with political agendas of the perils of dancing on the graves of any group [[e.g., UAW) as one does not know the next shoe to fall.

Deep in the heart of Texas, Rick Perry has been lambasting other states, trying to poach their companies, etc. while, like the rooster who crows and takes credit for the sunrise.

Is he boasting all the while running with a big wind at his back?

What happens if the big wind is at his face?

Will Texas get hit hard with a big regional recession because of falling oil prices [[see reference to 1986 in this article)?

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/18/news...html?iid=HP_LN

[Warrenite84]

Outside of signing bonuses, performance bonuses, and small profit sharing checks, we received no raises to our hourly rate. With inflation at 2% per year over 9 years, is a loss in income of 18% plus compounding interest.

Several plants have gone to the Alternative Work Schedule and some are forced to work a swing shift, [[Friday & Saturday evening shift, and Monday & Tuesday morning shift).

Others also have a job because we sacrificed our wages and benefits.

[Hermod]

"Citizens of the World", why is it a bad thing to provide jobs to Mexican workers. Do they not deserve dignified work? Are we not being egocentric and/or perhaps even racist by keeping our wealth to ourselves and not helping others? Surely the Mexicans see us all as the 1% here. This populist nationalism doesn't sit well with me.

Back when the Big 3 and the UAW had a total lock on manufacturing in the US, Detroit [[manufacturers and union) treated the rest of the US like an "economic colony". The auto companies were some of the most profitable in the country and the Detroit auto workers made double the mean wages and benefits of other manufacturing workers in the US. Every time Walter Reuther wanted "more", the Big 3 would put up a token resistance and then cave in. The Big 3 would then just raise the price by the added labor cost and pass it on to the rest of the US using their monopoly pricing power. Every one else [[that needed a car) just had to suck it up and keep supporting the lifestyle in Detroit. That is one reason they fled to Japanese cars as fast as they did and Detroit has so little sympathy today.

[Willi]

I am just passing along the news stories that anyone can find in numerous locations on the web regarding Detroit UAW president rhetoric

People post links from the newspapers daily

Then people post opinions and the discussion starts-- don't like the topic or discussion move on down the road to another thread

The news exists regardless

[Wesley Mouch]

Outside of signing bonuses, performance bonuses, and small profit sharing checks, we received no raises to our hourly rate. With inflation at 2% per year over 9 years, is a loss in income of 18% plus compounding interest.

Several plants have gone to the Alternative Work Schedule and some are forced to work a swing shift, [[Friday & Saturday evening shift, and Monday & Tuesday morning shift).

Others also have a job because we sacrificed our wages and benefits.

I'm no longer well-informed, as I don't have a UAW member in my inner circle any longer, but UAW's website brags that non-wage payments at Fords for 4 years about $16.7k before those small 'profit sharing' checks. They were estimating about $5-6k for 2011 for Ford. Historically that might be small, but its not. The total of about $10k a year in these non-wage payments increases hourly pay by about $5/hr. About what a Mexican auto worker gets in total. Don't know if this is what was agreed to.

Best to you for doing well. I have friends who would be quite pleased to take those unpleasant swing shifts, if you wish.

Merry Christmas to you.

[Willi]

Easier to give out some year end checks based on Sales Performance, versus hard wiring a higher wage in a union contract

People can and do opt out of the union

[Det_ard]

Outside of signing bonuses, performance bonuses, and small profit sharing checks, we received no raises to our hourly rate. With inflation at 2% per year over 9 years, is a loss in income of 18% plus compounding interest.

Several plants have gone to the Alternative Work Schedule and some are forced to work a swing shift, [[Friday & Saturday evening shift, and Monday & Tuesday morning shift).

Others also have a job because we sacrificed our wages and benefits.

If I were you I'd quit tomorrow. Tell them to pound sand. I'm sure you can get a better paying job working under better conditions in no time at all. There's a huge demand for your specialized skills.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I am just passing along the news stories that anyone can find in numerous locations on the web regarding Detroit UAW president rhetoric

People post links from the newspapers daily

Then people post opinions and the discussion starts-- don't like the topic or discussion move on down the road to another thread

The news exists regardless

Ok fine... but drop the condescending tone of your posts.....

[Willi]

I'll write as I please,
when I please,
if it pleases you or not.

It is my opinion, an I'll express it openly.
I have no love of unions in this century.
I also have zero love of taxpayers propping up loosing businesses that got spanked by the competition and then whine inccessantly.

[Warrenite84]

I am ok with Mexicans doing some auto work if it builds their middle class.

Although I am not personally affected by the alternative work schedule, it is unfair to treat any workers that way to get out of paying overtime for Saturdays. Treatment of workers, customers, and stockholders should be equal IMHO.

I am ok with second tier workers eventually getting prevailing wages, just not wholly on senior employees backs. Shared sacrifice, AND shared reward.

[Willi]

Forbes Magazine quote

"Specifically, the union’s fear is that, as the number of second-tier UAW workers spreads in Michigan — which still employs far more autoworkers than any other state – more union members might question the value of paying their union dues at all, if the UAW can’t even get them equal pay for equal work.

And if there’s the potential for workers to forgo union membership and still be able to work in a Michigan auto plant, maybe a lot of colleagues would agree that it’s not worth being represented by the United Auto Workers anymore."

Right to Work - opt of UAW

[hortonz]

Walter Reuther predicted the future when he said that organized labor can't thrive in a political vacuum. The union movement once had a powerful ally in the Democrat party. Organized labor delivered the votes and the Democrats gave organized labor the right to collective bargaining, workplace health and safety laws with teeth and a Supreme Court that looked out for the interests of ordinary people. Unfortunately the Republican landslides of the 1980s convinced a lot of Democrats, led by those master manipulators Bill and Hillary Clinton, that the best way to govern was to ignore the unions when it interfered with the interests of Wall Street while pretending to be the labor movement's best friend at election time.

[Willi]

UAW just boosted its rates 25%
-- had to, in order to build that strike bank up
because they are shitting their pants in Michigan

UAW can not deliver...
Opt Out, stop paying extortion fees for nothing

Strike, and you'll really hurt your chances.
Auto companies will give nothing.
They will let the ordinary working people rot
Shareholders come first, always have, always will

[nain rouge]

I am ok with Mexicans doing some auto work if it builds their middle class.

I totally get that, but at the same time, we can't ignore that the Big 3 are using international labor markets to wage bust. No matter what way you cut it, I can't see how that's good for the American middle class. The end result will be a slightly improved Mexican economy and severely debilitated American economy. Surely, there's a better way.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Back in 1992, Perot predicted the great leveling with Mexico would be six dollars an hour. Normalize that number for inflation and, today, he looks better than the other two guys on stage in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ7kn2-GEmM

[Det_ard]

I totally get that, but at the same time, we can't ignore that the Big 3 are using international labor markets to wage bust. No matter what way you cut it, I can't see how that's good for the American middle class. The end result will be a slightly improved Mexican economy and severely debilitated American economy. Surely, there's a better way.

It may not be good for the Big 3's unionized workers, but it's insignificant to the American middle class. This is not 1970.

Per the UAW "More than 100,000 UAW members work in production and skilled trades at U.S. auto assembly, stamping, engine and powertrain plants." That might sound like a lot, but there are 141,301,000 non-farm workers in the US. The Big 3 UAW workers amount to 0.07% of all workers. There's no way that their wage rates make any difference to the other 99.93% of workers in 2014.

[emu steve]

I'll write as I please,
when I please,
if it pleases you or not.

It is my opinion, an I'll express it openly.
I have no love of unions in this century.
I also have zero love of taxpayers propping up loosing businesses that got spanked by the competition and then whine inccessantly.

And folks here will disagree with you when they want, if it pleases you or not.

This is a game all can play.

Do remember you are on a moderated forum for which the moderator, not you or I, makes the rules. We play by his rules not your rules or my rules.

Usually, moderators get these kind of discussions moved to spin or smack forums so the rest of the folks can ignore them.

[Hermod]

Walter Reuther predicted the future when he said that organized labor can't thrive in a political vacuum. The union movement once had a powerful ally in the Democrat party. Organized labor delivered the votes and the Democrats gave organized labor the right to collective bargaining, workplace health and safety laws with teeth and a Supreme Court that looked out for the interests of ordinary people. Unfortunately the Republican landslides of the 1980s convinced a lot of Democrats, led by those master manipulators Bill and Hillary Clinton, that the best way to govern was to ignore the unions when it interfered with the interests of Wall Street while pretending to be the labor movement's best friend at election time.

Not just the conservative shift in the 1980s, there was also the shift in priorities in the Democratic Party away from labor issues and towards LGBT, Pro-Choice, immigration, affirmative action, anti-war, and other progressive interests.

[emu steve]

Not just the conservative shift in the 1980s, there was also the shift in priorities in the Democratic Party away from labor issues and towards LGBT, Pro-Choice, immigration, affirmative action, anti-war, and other progressive interests.

Interesting comment.

I was pretty far from labor issues in the 1980s. I have no idea if the fall in power of organized labor was because of political neglect [[i.e., Democrats) or simply the natural consequence of diminished labor jobs as jobs moved to the South and later went elsewhere [[e.g., south of the border, etc.).

I have trouble understanding the chicken and egg situation here.

I have seen a quote from Steve Rattner, that the U.S. lost 5M manufacturing jobs I believe in the first decade of this century.

That's one way to defeat organized labor - move of all the jobs which are unionized south of the border, overseas, etc. A high school student could think up that strategy.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

And folks here will disagree with you when they want, if it pleases you or not.

This is a game all can play.

Do remember you are on a moderated forum for which the moderator, not you or I, makes the rules. We play by his rules not your rules or my rules.

Usually, moderators get these kind of discussions moved to spin or smack forums so the rest of the folks can ignore them.

Thank you.

[Wesley Mouch]

I totally get that, but at the same time, we can't ignore that the Big 3 are using international labor markets to wage bust. No matter what way you cut it, I can't see how that's good for the American middle class. The end result will be a slightly improved Mexican economy and severely debilitated American economy. Surely, there's a better way.

I don't think the Big 3 care about 'wage busting', whatever that means. They simply look at costs and marketing.

They are no more focused on cutting labor costs than they are cutting regulatory costs or taxes. They seek low costs. Don't we all. Most of want to shop at Nordstrom every day, but we head to target for the best mix of cost and quality.

The Big 3 embraced Canada during the financial crisis. High wage, high tax country with an unfavorable US exchange rate [[at that time). Why? Because they provided them cash [[capital). Ontario and Canada kicked in money. The wages mattered less than access to capital, highly skilled workers, and the ability to ship to the US without import taxes [[NAFTA).

We should also remember that car manufacturing is now an entirely international business, with most opportunity outside the US. Our wages need to make economic sense globally, not just locally. That sucks if you're an unskilled auto-worked, but the skilled trades and automation experts are cleaning up -- because they have access to the entire world to sell their skills. An acquaintance of mind is taking jobs installing American automation in plants around the world, and making about $200,000 a year. He brings that money from work in India and Brazil right back to the USA.

I thus dispute your idea that the Big 3 are 'wage busting'. Wages are only one small part of a much bigger puzzle, and the Big 3 will just as happily pay higher wages elsewhere if the overall climate is better. They just don't care about wages as much as they do quality and flexibility.

On that last point, this is a big deal to car companies. They want their labor to be flexible. And the UAW [[and all labor) isn't. Tell a line worker that tomorrow he needs to cut the grass at the factory, and see how that goes over. It ain't all about wages.