Proposed Amtrak improvements - Pontiac/Detroit to Chicago

**Honky Tonk** · October-31-14, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by XDetroitr

I completely agree... but the political realities will not let this happen. Republicans generally hate mass transit since most of the people who use it are either poor or liberal Urbanites. Not their voting base.

That explains the wonderful mass transit system we have in Detroit being under Democratic rule.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-31-14, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by maverick1

Considering the similar economis I would think some type of rail b/w upstate/western NY and Chicago would make sense. Detroit's economic tentacles reaches all through the Great Lakes so something similar to the Boston-NYC-Washington rail lines would be good. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Cleveland-Detroit-Chicago region second in density to Boston-NYC-Washington?

It would make almost too much sense. :-)

There are a few stumbling blocks that need to be overcome:

1. Indiana. While rail is [[and should be) a non-partisan issue, more conservative states tend to see any non-highway spending as "a waste". Any comprehensive Great Lakes rail plan would require significant investment by Indiana.

2. Columbus. The same kind of folks in Indiana are the people who have a majority--and the governor's chair--in Ohio. Remember, John Kasich won the governorship in 2010 by running against the [[federally-approved-and-funded) 3C Rail Line as "a waste of money that goes too slow and doesn't create jobs and we can't afford it anyway".

3. Norfolk Southern. The federal government is investigating NS to determine why trains from Chicago-to-Cleveland are perpetually late.

There is some hope, though. A coalition of lakeshore counties are banding together to improve intercity rail transportation. Greater Cleveland's MPO has recognized that the region needs less investment in highways and sprawl, and more investment in transit and rail in the urban core, in order to preserve the viability of the region. Columbus is showing interest in starting brand-new rail service to Chicago via Indianapolis. And state courts have now determined that excess Ohio Turnpike revenues can be used for infrastructure projects. Even ODOT has been holding meetings around the state to determine the level of need of improved transit service.

**Wesley Mouch** · October-31-14, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

It would make almost too much sense. :-)

There are a few stumbling blocks that need to be overcome:

1. Indiana. While rail is [[and should be) a non-partisan issue, more conservative states tend to see any non-highway spending as "a waste". Any comprehensive Great Lakes rail plan would require significant investment by Indiana.

2. Columbus. The same kind of folks in Indiana are the people who have a majority--and the governor's chair--in Ohio. Remember, John Kasich won the governorship in 2010 by running against the [[federally-approved-and-funded) 3C Rail Line as "a waste of money that goes too slow and doesn't create jobs and we can't afford it anyway".

3. Norfolk Southern. The federal government is investigating NS to determine why trains from Chicago-to-Cleveland are perpetually late.

There is some hope, though. A coalition of lakeshore counties are banding together to improve intercity rail transportation. Greater Cleveland's MPO has recognized that the region needs less investment in highways and sprawl, and more investment in transit and rail in the urban core, in order to preserve the viability of the region. Columbus is showing interest in starting brand-new rail service to Chicago via Indianapolis. And state courts have now determined that excess Ohio Turnpike revenues can be used for infrastructure projects. Even ODOT has been holding meetings around the state to determine the level of need of improved transit service.

Thanks for the info on the 'hope'. I think with time you will see changes in attitude -- although falling gas prices and improved fuel economy may slow it in the near term.

As to the resistance to transit money, I think the problem isn't the transit, but rather the often-correct perception that urban money isn't well spent. Changing this will involve better urban financial management more than anything else. Many have fought urban reorganization, and they continue to push for the 'old way' of doing things rather than a re-thinking of government. If you want out-state buy-in -- work for in-city improvements in non-transit areas.

**lpg** · October-31-14, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Referring to anything specific? Or just repeating a catchy soundbite you heard?

I'm skeptical of people who make shit up to suit their ideology. The government, I'm okay with.

Would the Wayne County Jail project qualify in your opinion? My ideology is just getting the most for my tax money. If you will pay my taxes, I will not say a word on how the money is spent. I don't pay any attention to sound bites, I can make up my own mind.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-31-14, 02:43 PM

Has anyone used the new Troy/Bham station? Anyone excited about how the Dearborn Station will link into the Henry Ford as well as U of M?

**Don K** · October-31-14, 05:15 PM

Seems to me that getting the trip time under 4 hours is what makes this sing as an alternative to driving or flying to Chicago and, assuming the train times are convenient, makes it possible to do a one-day business trip by train. In my working days, I would fly, and would allow at least 4 hours to get to an office in the Loop, after the drive from my house to Metro, finding parking, walking to the gate [[after who knows how long at security), then taking the subway from OHare into the Loop and walking to my destination. To top it off, seating on a train is way more comfortable than in coach on a plane, allowing work, reading, a nap, or just stretching out and relaxing. With the Troy station about 10-15 minutes from my house [[versus 45 to Metro), I'd so be there if I was still working and travelling to Chicago.

**bibs** · November-02-14, 11:20 PM

After reading several articles as well as the Great Lakes Rail presentation, it appears that most of the billions will be spent setting up a dedicated route for passenger rail from Porter, IN along the south shore of Lake Michigan and into Chicago. The purchase of additional training cars and engines is also in the mix. It recently read that most of Amtrak's engines and passenger cars were purchased in the 60's. Yeah, baby! Austin Powers

http://greatlakesrail.org/~grtlakes/..._SGP_Oct14.pdf

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/l...b140f1388.html

**Downriviera** · November-03-14, 07:49 AM

How about a second Detroit to Chicago route. A non stop using NS tracks to Butler, Indiana where it ties into the NY-Chicago water level route. Better and straighter track for higher speeds. The only issue would be getting the NS freights out of the way.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-03-14, 07:51 AM

Amtrak to add 18 trains!
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/11/...hanksgiving-2/

Okay maybe it is just for the seasonal rush, but it shows that people use it!

**DetroitPlanner** · November-03-14, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

How about a second Detroit to Chicago route. A non stop using NS tracks to Butler, Indiana where it ties into the NY-Chicago water level route. Better and straighter track for higher speeds. The only issue would be getting the NS freights out of the way.

That and it bypasses a lot of population centers. There are quite a few people who take the trains to get from smaller city to smaller city along the way [[example Jackson to Kalamazoo) and never make it to stations in either metro Detroit or Chicago.

**DTWflyer** · November-03-14, 11:20 AM

If you get the trip time down to about 4 hours and actually run on-schedule then demand would significantly increase.

I've used the train but every time is is painfully delayed. 7 hour train trips are a no-go for me. I hate driving to Chicago but I hate 7 hours on a often-delayed and unpredictable train.

For work I always fly. I would definetely take the train though, if it was predictable.

The current-state of this line is a joke.

**Downriviera** · November-08-14, 06:44 PM

I was wondering if using Amtrak from Toledo to Chicago and back would be a viable way for me to get around the Detroit/Chicago delays. I'm about a 35 minute drive to Toledo's Amtrak station. The November issue of Trains magazine just answered my question. The Lake Shore Limited from Cleveland to Chicago [[which stops at Toledo) had a best arrival time of 54 minutes late during the month of August. The worst was 529 minutes late [[about 9 hours). The average for the month was about 4 hours late!!

On another rail fan note, I finally saw one of Norfolk Southern's Heritage units at a crossing in Taylor last week. The Nickel Plate version was the lead of 2 units pulling a road railer to Melvindale yard.

**Gpwrangler** · November-08-14, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Downriviera

On another rail fan note, I finally saw one of Norfolk Southern's Heritage units at a crossing in Taylor last week. The Nickel Plate version was the lead of 2 units pulling a road railer to Melvindale yard.

lol nobody on here is going to know what that is.

**canuck** · November-08-14, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gpwrangler

lol nobody on here is going to know what that is.

Ahhh! Don't laff eh? I know what he's talking about. My dad invented the nucular locomodiv.

**maverick1** · November-08-14, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

It would make almost too much sense. :-)

There are a few stumbling blocks that need to be overcome:

1. Indiana. While rail is [[and should be) a non-partisan issue, more conservative states tend to see any non-highway spending as "a waste". Any comprehensive Great Lakes rail plan would require significant investment by Indiana.

2. Columbus. The same kind of folks in Indiana are the people who have a majority--and the governor's chair--in Ohio. Remember, John Kasich won the governorship in 2010 by running against the [[federally-approved-and-funded) 3C Rail Line as "a waste of money that goes too slow and doesn't create jobs and we can't afford it anyway".

3. Norfolk Southern. The federal government is investigating NS to determine why trains from Chicago-to-Cleveland are perpetually late.

There is some hope, though. A coalition of lakeshore counties are banding together to improve intercity rail transportation. Greater Cleveland's MPO has recognized that the region needs less investment in highways and sprawl, and more investment in transit and rail in the urban core, in order to preserve the viability of the region. Columbus is showing interest in starting brand-new rail service to Chicago via Indianapolis. And state courts have now determined that excess Ohio Turnpike revenues can be used for infrastructure projects. Even ODOT has been holding meetings around the state to determine the level of need of improved transit service.

You're right. Indiana and Ohio would be huge obstacles to this. Frankly, the Great Lakes region SUCK at building on their advantages. I think the reason behind that is more political than anything else.

**Gpwrangler** · November-08-14, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Ahhh! Don't laff eh? I know what he's talking about. My dad invented the nucular locomodiv.

I got to drive one once. Pretty weird not being able to steer.

**Downriviera** · November-08-14, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gpwrangler

lol nobody on here is going to know what that is.

Most won't, but there are some railfans on here. And boat nerds.

**Gpwrangler** · November-08-14, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by maverick1

You're right. Indiana and Ohio would be huge obstacles to this. Frankly, the Great Lakes region SUCK at building on their advantages. I think the reason behind that is more political than anything else.

Parts of indiana [[near the Michigan border) seem to be behind rail projects.

**Don K** · November-08-14, 11:05 PM

A lot of the planning/money for this one is for routing through northern Indiana away from active freight lines to eliminate the present delays. The line from Porter to Kalamazoo already is owned by Amtrak, and the line from Kalamazoo to Dearborn is owned by MDOT, so the passenger trains ought to get priority over freights.

At 3:45 time CHI-DET and 0:40 DET-PNT [[so, say, 0:30 DET-TRM), a 5:30 am train from New Center would arrive Chicago at 8:15, and leave Troy around 5:00. Returning, leaving Chicago at 5:30 pm would have you into Detroit at 10:15, and Troy at 10:45. These schedules would allow a full day of business in Chicago, and in terms of total travel time would about duplicate what can be achieved by plane. This is why I say implementation of this plan could lure a lot of DET-CHI business travel from the plane to the train. Why not, when you get a more comfortable seat, and have more time to get work done on the train?