Preparatory Work for M-1 Rail Begins

[mwilbert]

3 miles took over 7 years. When phase I costs inevitably go over budget, who's paying? When taxpayers are on the hook for say $80M of this, how eager are the tax payers going to be for phase II? Maybe you'll get phase II by 2025, if you're lucky. Most likely never, because nobody is going to ride phase I.

I don't think s/he's optimistic, s/he sounds like a shill who lacks travel experience and exposure to functioning US cities. I'm hear because I care about Detroit. With all due respect, blind optimism is not the answer to the city's problems.

With all due respect, continual and reflexive pessimism isn't going to solve the city's problems either.

[TennisAndMath]

With all due respect, continual and reflexive pessimism isn't going to solve the city's problems either.

Yes, anybody who dares to discuss the dysfunction and is against asinine ideas is racist and wants Detroit to fail. And everybody against the Iraq war in 2003 was anti-american. Right.

[Mackinaw]

Oh, you're a special kind of troll aren't you?

[mwilbert]

Yes, anybody who dares to discuss the dysfunction and is against asinine ideas is racist and wants Detroit to fail. And everybody against the Iraq war in 2003 was anti-american. Right.

I said nothing of the kind. I merely pointed out that relentless negativity isn't any more useful than excessive optimism. How you get from there to implied racism I'm not really sure. I think a reasonable person might infer from your comments that you want the city to fail, if only to validate your negative viewpoint, but I didn't make that inference.

[Junjie]

3 miles took over 7 years. When phase I costs inevitably go over budget, who's paying? When taxpayers are on the hook for say $80M of this, how eager are the tax payers going to be for phase II?

As long as we're just making things up that haven't happened, it's important to remember that public support increased dramatically once ridership ended up at double the projections.

[ghettopalmetto]

3 miles took over 7 years. When phase I costs inevitably go over budget, who's paying? When taxpayers are on the hook for say $80M of this, how eager are the tax payers going to be for phase II? Maybe you'll get phase II by 2025, if you're lucky. Most likely never, because nobody is going to ride phase I.

M1 Rail could be up-and-running already, IF it hadn't been [[temporarily) merged with the ill-fated DTOGS plan. Squabbling with the City of Detroit, trying to hammer out a design, and the application for [[and repeal of) Federal funds for DTOGS certainly didn't help matters much, did they? It would have also helped if a Woodward rail line had already been, you know, part of a much larger regional transportation plan. But since SEMCOG assumes that everyone is going to drive, and doesn't give half a fart's thought to transit, the regional transit plan outright sucks.

Now, since so many cities across the United States have constructed new light rail and streetcar lines since the 1980s, projecting construction costs has become quite predictable. Given that M1 Rail won't be tunnelling through any mountains [[like Seattle Link), this is a pretty straightforward project as far as rail goes. There is no rational reason to think that there will be a 70% cost overrun, as you baselessly predict. And even if there were, there is no legal authority in Michigan right now to tax anyone to pay for it.

You say "nobody" is going to ride Phase I--even though the Woodward 53 bus is the busiest in the DDOT network. All across the country, new light rail and streetcar lines are exceeding ridership projections--even as driving declines. Just because you don't plan to ride the streetcar doesn't make it a lost cause. So maybe you can dispense with the negative hysteria.

[dtowncitylover]

3 miles took over 7 years. When phase I costs inevitably go over budget, who's paying? When taxpayers are on the hook for say $80M of this, how eager are the tax payers going to be for phase II? Maybe you'll get phase II by 2025, if you're lucky. Most likely never, because nobody is going to ride phase I.

I don't think s/he's optimistic, s/he sounds like a shill who lacks travel experience and exposure to functioning US cities. I'm here because I care about Detroit. With all due respect, blind optimism is not the answer to the city's problems.

First, thank you ghettopalmetto for your post #49. I truly appreciate it.

BUT Ghettopalmetto and T&M I have the same jaded attitude about this place that most of my fellow Detroiters, both city and suburb, have. If I were to get a job in Chicago, Boston, or Philly [[my top cities I would like to live in), I would. But I have a job and life here and don't have many connections there, so I stay. And instead of sitting on my ass and complaining about life's ills, I try to make this place a better place to live with the resources I have.

T&M, this is my travel list: Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, NYC, Seattle, Quebec City, Paris, London, Orleans, Strasbourg, Charlotte, DC, Marrakesh, Fez, Stafford, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Grand Rapids, and Port-au-Prince. Yeah, I guess I lack travel experience.

I'm not blind to Detroit's struggles. But I invest my time in concerns I am passionate for. And that's transit. Some people love education, some people fight crime, some people work with the poor. And that's all good. But for me, I am an advocate for mobility and connection.

[Wings]

Like many people have said, it's a start. Unlike the People Mover, this actually connects the two most populated areas of the city. However, I think a $140-million investment in the bus system would have made more sense at this time. Wait 5 years until downtown/midtown is even more popular and then work on funding an actual rail system [[separate from the street) to the suburbs.

[Mackinaw]

Like many people have said, it's a start. Unlike the People Mover, this actually connects the two most populated areas of the city. However, I think a $140-million investment in the bus system would have made more sense at this time. Wait 5 years until downtown/midtown is even more popular and then work on funding an actual rail system [[separate from the street) to the suburbs.

The DPM comparisons needed to stop, yesterday. Obviously they are not rooted in logic, but they do inform us of the mindset of people who are too good to use transit-- that they think all transit is folly, and it's all the same to them.

The question is what to prioritize, hop-on-hop-off service in the city and first ring suburb, or express rail from suburbs? Probably both. A good benchmark to keep in mind is 30-minutes or less from the suburbs, and no more that 10 minute waits at rush hour. People would have no choice but to prefer that. So for Birmingham, Troy, Royal Oak, that probably means real rail or dedicated lane express BRT. Grosse Pointe could do with a streetcar line that then provides stops at moderate intervals in the city along Jefferson. This would also be a great service for the Jos. Campau warehouse district, Indian/West village, Gold Coast, and Jeff-Chalmers. Put stops there, then run it along the SMART bus route in GP: up into [the much-maligned] downtown GP Park on Kercheval, then to the GP Village and Hill along Kercheval [[going right through the center of residential districts with solid density of 4500-6500/sq. mile and a high percentage of downtown workers), then up Moross to 7-Mack [[major employment hub), and then, if interest, up Mack to 8 or 9 mile.

[Wings]

The DPM comparisons needed to stop, yesterday. Obviously they are not rooted in logic, but they do inform us of the mindset of people who are too good to use transit-- that they think all transit is folly, and it's all the same to them.

The question is what to prioritize, hop-on-hop-off service in the city and first ring suburb, or express rail from suburbs? Probably both. A good benchmark to keep in mind is 30-minutes or less from the suburbs, and no more that 10 minute waits at rush hour. People would have no choice but to prefer that. So for Birmingham, Troy, Royal Oak, that probably means real rail or dedicated lane express BRT. Grosse Pointe could do with a streetcar line that then provides stops at moderate intervals in the city along Jefferson. This would also be a great service for the Jos. Campau warehouse district, Indian/West village, Gold Coast, and Jeff-Chalmers. Put stops there, then run it along the SMART bus route in GP: up into [the much-maligned] downtown GP Park on Kercheval, then to the GP Village and Hill along Kercheval [[going right through the center of residential districts with solid density of 4500-6500/sq. mile and a high percentage of downtown workers), then up Moross to 7-Mack [[major employment hub), and then, if interest, up Mack to 8 or 9 mile.

Is it possible to do both? I guess if we're talking about the Woodward line, you could make the stops less frequent between New Center and Royal Oak. Obviously one at 11 Mile or Lincoln near DTRO, one in Ferndale around 8 mile, you probably need one at 7 mile for Sherwood Forest, then probably just one in Highland Park somewhere. I think if you have just 4 or 5 stops before New Center it wouldn't take longer than 30 minutes to get downtown/CBD from RO. Grosse Pointe certainly wouldn't take longer than 30 minutes, just down Jefferson. The problem would be the west/northwest suburbs, they would probably need a dedicated rail since there's so much area between downtown and Livonia, Farmington, Southfield, etc.

[professorscott]

Is it possible to do both? I guess if we're talking about the Woodward line, you could make the stops less frequent between New Center and Royal Oak. Obviously one at 11 Mile or Lincoln near DTRO, one in Ferndale around 8 mile, you probably need one at 7 mile for Sherwood Forest, then probably just one in Highland Park somewhere. I think if you have just 4 or 5 stops before New Center it wouldn't take longer than 30 minutes to get downtown/CBD from RO. Grosse Pointe certainly wouldn't take longer than 30 minutes, just down Jefferson. The problem would be the west/northwest suburbs, they would probably need a dedicated rail since there's so much area between downtown and Livonia, Farmington, Southfield, etc.

More likely it'll be something like this: Manchester, McNichols, 7 Mile, fairgrounds TC, 9 Mile, 10 Mile, Zoo, DTRO. Remember passengers wouldn't be paying fare on board so the dwell times are reduced, plus if there is transit signal prioritization there's little waiting at signals.

To me the East Jeff corridor makes sense as an extension of M1, perhaps going first through eastern market then down to Jefferson to serve Belle Isle and all the various residential areas along the corridor. It'd probably have to turn around at the century old Wayburn streetcar loop; for some reason methinks Grosse Pointe Park would put up military-style barricades to keep it out of their pristine community.

[Junjie]

More likely it'll be something like this: Manchester, McNichols, 7 Mile, fairgrounds TC, 9 Mile, 10 Mile, Zoo, DTRO. Remember passengers wouldn't be paying fare on board so the dwell times are reduced, plus if there is transit signal prioritization there's little waiting at signals.

To me the East Jeff corridor makes sense as an extension of M1, perhaps going first through eastern market then down to Jefferson to serve Belle Isle and all the various residential areas along the corridor. It'd probably have to turn around at the century old Wayburn streetcar loop; for some reason methinks Grosse Pointe Park would put up military-style barricades to keep it out of their pristine community.

Does the fact that M1 switches to center-running at the north end of the line indicate that the designers/backers anticipate a "phase 2" e.g. faster running in [[dedicated?) center lanes with further spaced stops like those you mentioned? Or just a happy accident of the road layout?

Would new vehicles be needed or are the vehicles being purchased for "phase 1" also able to operate in such a mode? [[Presumably some additional vehicles would be needed for frequency on a longer line, of course.)

No surprise coming from me but +1 for swinging it out toward Jefferson and Belle Isle. But since it already goes to Congress, wouldn't it be sort of awkward to send it back up to Eastern Market and then down again to Jefferson? I'd expect a RenCen stop instead.

[emu steve]

More likely it'll be something like this: Manchester, McNichols, 7 Mile, fairgrounds TC, 9 Mile, 10 Mile, Zoo, DTRO. Remember passengers wouldn't be paying fare on board so the dwell times are reduced, plus if there is transit signal prioritization there's little waiting at signals.

To me the East Jeff corridor makes sense as an extension of M1, perhaps going first through eastern market then down to Jefferson to serve Belle Isle and all the various residential areas along the corridor. It'd probably have to turn around at the century old Wayburn streetcar loop; for some reason methinks Grosse Pointe Park would put up military-style barricades to keep it out of their pristine community.

" for some reason methinks Grosse Pointe Park would put up military-style barricades to keep it out of their pristine community"

I remember a [[former) co-worker discussing this when the D.C.'s green line was to be built.

Folks in College Park weren't none too pleased to have 'less desirables' visiting their community.

As we have discussed, a REAL transit system means for the price of the fare, anyone from any stop and go to any other stop.

[professorscott]

Does the fact that M1 switches to center-running at the north end of the line indicate that the designers/backers anticipate a "phase 2" e.g. faster running in [[dedicated?) center lanes with further spaced stops like those you mentioned?

Yes. This was part of the discussion back in 2006-07.

Would new vehicles be needed or are the vehicles being purchased for "phase 1" also able to operate in such a mode? [[Presumably some additional vehicles would be needed for frequency on a longer line, of course.)

The vehicles being purchased could handle the more regional-style operation north of New Center, and you are correct that more of them would be needed.

No surprise coming from me but +1 for swinging it out toward Jefferson and Belle Isle. But since it already goes to Congress, wouldn't it be sort of awkward to send it back up to Eastern Market and then down again to Jefferson? I'd expect a RenCen stop instead.

It could go either way. The big opportunity is if/when something is done with 375. There is an operational issue at Woodward and Jefferson which is why the current system stops a few yards shy of Jefferson; that's why Eastern Market is an option. It avoids that situation. Jefferson, right there, is an oddball connection between two interstate highways, so operating along that part of Jefferson is tricky. East of 375 it's no problem at all.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments!

[Junjie]

Yes. This was part of the discussion back in 2006-07.

The vehicles being purchased could handle the more regional-style operation north of New Center, and you are correct that more of them would be needed.

It could go either way. The big opportunity is if/when something is done with 375. There is an operational issue at Woodward and Jefferson which is why the current system stops a few yards shy of Jefferson; that's why Eastern Market is an option. It avoids that situation. Jefferson, right there, is an oddball connection between two interstate highways, so operating along that part of Jefferson is tricky. East of 375 it's no problem at all.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments!

Thanks for the answers, great to know. It sounds like everything is set up as well as possible for the future. I noticed Mayor Duggan's comments at the groundbreaking Monday and how explicitly he talked about getting the rail extended further out - interesting given the parallel SEMCOG BRT / Woodward alternatives analysis stuff already going on.

I have nothing against BRT if it were implemented in a really high-quality way [[indeed it seems particularly suited to Detroit given the wide, often relatively low-traffic arterial roads), but it's hard to imagine the two coexisting on Woodward unless M-1 remained a local streetcar. Any thoughts on how that's likely to play out?

[stasu1213]

Yes. This was part of the discussion back in 2006-07.



The vehicles being purchased could handle the more regional-style operation north of New Center, and you are correct that more of them would be needed.



It could go either way. The big opportunity is if/when something is done with 375. There is an operational issue at Woodward and Jefferson which is why the current system stops a few yards shy of Jefferson; that's why Eastern Market is an option. It avoids that situation. Jefferson, right there, is an oddball connection between two interstate highways, so operating along that part of Jefferson is tricky. East of 375 it's no problem at all.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments!

Another thought is that the reason why the project stop shy of Woodward and Jefferson is for it will be too close to the GM headquarters. It will be an oxymoron to see a photo promoting the future Detroit with passengers smiling while getting on a light rail system while GM Headquarters looms in the background. It will make Detroit look hypercritical selling cars to the world while its own residents would rather ride mass transit. I my opinion this is why Detroit had a hard time getting any form of light rail while having a rag tag bus transportation system

[professorscott]

I have nothing against BRT if it were implemented in a really high-quality way [[indeed it seems particularly suited to Detroit given the wide, often relatively low-traffic arterial roads), but it's hard to imagine the two coexisting on Woodward unless M-1 remained a local streetcar. Any thoughts on how that's likely to play out?

Of course the Woodward BRT study is still in the early stages, so there aren't a lot of details, but one possibility is that the BRT will veer off Woodward somewhere past the north end of the M1 system, so people who need the M1 stops can transfer. Also, BRT will make very few stops in the central city, perhaps as few as three or four.

Another thing is that the BRT is almost certain to serve RPTC which M1 does not directly serve.

Regarding your comment "if it were implemented in a really high-quality way", that is something to keep a close eye on. One of the bummers of BRT implementation, particularly in the US, is that the value engineering comes in early and heavily. At the very minimum, you want to see a dedicated lane for at least most of the route - some places, you just don't have the real estate - as well as signal prioritization and off-board fare payment. Lacking that, all you have is a spiffily-decorated express bus.

[Spartan]

Another thought is that the reason why the project stop shy of Woodward and Jefferson is for it will be too close to the GM headquarters. It will be an oxymoron to see a photo promoting the future Detroit with passengers smiling while getting on a light rail system while GM Headquarters looms in the background. It will make Detroit look hypercritical selling cars to the world while its own residents would rather ride mass transit. I my opinion this is why Detroit had a hard time getting any form of light rail while having a rag tag bus transportation system

That's a ridiculous theory. The people mover [[which is much more obvious in photos) already runs right in front of the Renaissance Center, and even has a stop.

[dtowncitylover]

It will be an oxymoron to see a photo promoting the future Detroit with passengers smiling while getting on a light rail system while GM Headquarters looms in the background. It will make Detroit look hypercritical selling cars to the world while its own residents would rather ride mass transit.

This is an interesting point, but I'm not too concerned because the amount of people from elswehere, especially from abroad, are surprised to learn we don't have a mass transit system to compliment our road/highway system.

It's funny to learn Toyota, Japan where Toyota is HQed, was not served by any trains or transit for the longest time. Today it is with regional rail and a maglev People Mover-esque train that was built for a world's fair that's still in use.

[iheartthed]

This is an interesting point, but I'm not too concerned because the amount of people from elswehere, especially from abroad, are surprised to learn we don't have a mass transit system to compliment our road/highway system.

Detroit is by far the odd ball for a city of its size in a rich country. It's as odd to everyone else that Detroit doesn't have a train as having a train seems like a novelty to Metro Detroiters.

[ghettopalmetto]

Regarding your comment "if it were implemented in a really high-quality way", that is something to keep a close eye on. One of the bummers of BRT implementation, particularly in the US, is that the value engineering comes in early and heavily. At the very minimum, you want to see a dedicated lane for at least most of the route - some places, you just don't have the real estate - as well as signal prioritization and off-board fare payment. Lacking that, all you have is a spiffily-decorated express bus.

And there's the kicker. No one ever defines "high quality" or "rapid transit" in specific terms. Therefore, it's pretty darn easy to start value engineering from the get-go.

What transit planners fail to understand, however, is that even using *every single* BRT bell and whistle, it is still physically impossible for a bus to operate as fast as rail. That's not my opinion--that's just physics.

I would much rather ride a streetcar than the Most Rapidest Bus Rapid Transit Ever line.

[dtowncitylover]

Detroit is by far the odd ball for a city of its size in a rich country. It's as odd to everyone else that Detroit doesn't have a train as having a train seems like a novelty to Metro Detroiters.

Yup. It's either, "You guys don't have transit? You're idiots, you need it!" or "We're going to get transit? They're stupid, we don't need it!"

[Junjie]

And there's the kicker. No one ever defines "high quality" or "rapid transit" in specific terms. Therefore, it's pretty darn easy to start value engineering from the get-go.

What transit planners fail to understand, however, is that even using *every single* BRT bell and whistle, it is still physically impossible for a bus to operate as fast as rail. That's not my opinion--that's just physics.

I would much rather ride a streetcar than the Most Rapidest Bus Rapid Transit Ever line.

I don't think it's too hard to get specific. The key to "rapid transit" is dedicated right of way + good vehicle frequency. Fully grade separated is an A. At-grade, in combination with signal prioritization is a B. It needs to come every 10-12 minutes or better. Anything less is just bus service, and any other feature is basically a bell or whistle.

Agreed on the preference for rail generally speaking. But buses in dedicated lanes will kill a mixed-traffic streetcar in terms of speed to destination and on-time arrival.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think it's too hard to get specific. The key to "rapid transit" is dedicated right of way + good vehicle frequency. Fully grade separated is an A. At-grade, in combination with signal prioritization is a B. It needs to come every 10-12 minutes or better. Anything less is just bus service, and any other feature is basically a bell or whistle.

Agreed on the preference for rail generally speaking. But buses in dedicated lanes will kill a mixed-traffic streetcar in terms of speed to destination and on-time arrival.

Cleveland's BRT--often cited as the shining example of BRT in the United States--has dedicated right-of-way. It has high frequency. It has complete lateral separation from vehicle traffic. It has pre-paid fares. It has multi-door boarding...

...it takes over 35 minutes for that bus to travel 7 miles. That's about 15 minutes slower than the parallel Red Line Rapid, which was built in the 1950s. Rapid transit at 12 mph--yeehaw. I can ride my bike faster than that.

Any bus--no matter how "rapid" you market it, no matter what color you paint it...is going to be restricted by the speed limit of the road, and by the mechanical limitations of its engine. To me, this is common sense. But then again, I'm an engineer, and not a politician trying to sell you a false bill of goods.

[professorscott]

I don't think it's too hard to get specific. The key to "rapid transit" is dedicated right of way + good vehicle frequency. Fully grade separated is an A. At-grade, in combination with signal prioritization is a B. It needs to come every 10-12 minutes or better. Anything less is just bus service, and any other feature is basically a bell or whistle.

Agreed on the preference for rail generally speaking. But buses in dedicated lanes will kill a mixed-traffic streetcar in terms of speed to destination and on-time arrival.

Spot on. Essentially as you move up from basic bus service, you have four choices at a macro level, each one faster but more expensive than the next.

1. Express bus: just a regular bus, but with fewer stops. Can be improved with signal prioritization.

2. Streetcar: depending on how you do it, can be faster or slower than an express bus. The Portland streetcar is by far the slowest transit vehicle I've been on in my entire life, but wildly popular. If you have partial dedicated lanes or queue jumping [[transit-only signal phase) or signal prioritization, it gets faster.

3. Bus Rapid Transit or road corridor light rail. Either of these is exactly as fast as the other and either can be made faster or slower by such things as how signals are handled. It's not common for road corridor light rail to have unrestricted right of way at intersections [[what freight trains have). In fact I've never seen it done that way. This is the fastest you can hope for on Woodward.

4. Completely separated ROW for either BRT or light rail. Each of these is exactly as fast as the other. You can't do this along a roadway [[or, to be precise, I've never seen it done); this is done when a completely separate infrastructure pathway is created, as for instance by using abandoned freight ROW.

Buses and trains are equally fast. The one advantage of electric-motor vehicles [[more common in trains) is that the third derivative, "jerk" [[rate of change of acceleration when starting to move) is very close to zero. What matters is how you arrange the environment on which the vehicles operate.