Economic benefits of new light rail systems

[iheartthed]

If you think it [[Wodward) is bad now, you should have drove down it 15 years ago. You really need to assess things in terms of where they were and what they are now. If you did you will see things are much better in the M-1 area.

Huh? Woodward looked far better 15 years ago than it does today, except for maybe the mile between Hart Plaza and the Fisher Fwy.

[iheartthed]

To be fair, disestablishing transit in the post-WWII era was hardly unique to Detroit. Almost every city threw away its streetcar system, with a couple of scattered exceptions: Pittsburgh, New Orleans.

If we want to blame ourselves for where we are, I think it's better to look at the 1970s through the 1990s, when Uncle Sugar was ponying up money for transit and city after city was taking advantage of it. Since dtown mentioned the DC metro, this was the era of the design and construction of nearly all of it. We pooh-poohed the Federal money that could have built the DTOGS system, and more, about thirty years ago, ostensibly because our local "leaders" couldn't agree on details of the project, but really because nobody gave a damn; we were still pumping out expressways at a furious pace and that was going to solve all our problems.

All of the top 10 cities that did away with their street cars in the mid-20th century also went into population decline around the time that they did so, with the exception of Los Angeles. Those that either had subways or subsequently built subways have all been able to slow or reverse the decline since then. The single city that didn't is currently the largest city in U.S. history to ever go bankrupt.

Los Angeles was the least densely populated large city in the country during the mid-20th century, which means a removal of a transit option probably did not have the same effect as it did in denser cities back east.

[DetroitPlanner]

Huh? Woodward looked far better 15 years ago than it does today, except for maybe the mile between Hart Plaza and the Fisher Fwy.

Hmm... How about the townhouses at Woodward Place, the area around orchestra hall, the Addison building, the tear off of the clam shell at the boulevard, the new plaza in front of the Historical Museum, the Midtown loop? The MOCAD, the fancy party store that can't keep a tenant [[YOBS, Zaccaros)?

[iheartthed]

Hmm... How about the townhouses at Woodward Place, the area around orchestra hall, the Addison building, the tear off of the clam shell at the boulevard, the new plaza in front of the Historical Museum, the Midtown loop? The MOCAD, the fancy party store that can't keep a tenant [[YOBS, Zaccaros)?

Juxtaposed against all of the empty lots?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Comparing the transit systems of different cities is of decidedly limited utility. While it can provide examples of planning errors or innovative design solutions, cities are all very unique in layout, density, commuting issues, economics and a hundred other ways. Washington is much more densely populated than we were even at our peak [[their neighborhoods have largely much smaller lots, more townhouses, etc). They also have a large and perpetually growing employment base [[the government), capitol-specific destinations attracting millions of tourists who use the transit system, location in the rail-heavy Eastern seaboard transit system, and many sources of funding [[2 states, the federal government, DC, various municipalities, local and regional transit orgs, etc). And the DC area is just wealthier at every level [[even the poor in DC, I would bet, have a higher standard of living than the poor in Detroit). A good, useful and economically sustainable transit system for SE Michigan will not much resemble DC's system. It can be referenced for answering some questions we might have, but it is not a model we should seek to emulate.

[DetroitPlanner]

Juxtaposed against all of the empty lots?

You see empty lots, I see potential economic development from transit orientated design and maybe enough population to keep the fancy party store open [[YOBS, Zaccaros).

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I should hasten to add that I do like DCs system very much [[although we could dedicate a thread to it's myriad problems, including financial and infrastructure maintenance). I have spent many, many days on it's trains and buses. It works in many ways for that city & metro area. We need one that works for us.

[Detroitnerd]

Prediction: The new battery-powered parking trolley and the shinybus system will not advance rapid transit whatsoever.

You will only have effective mass transit on Woodward when 75 percent of the residents and workers along Woodward are ... um ... in a certain demographic.

[iheartthed]

You see empty lots, I see potential economic development from transit orientated design and maybe enough population to keep the fancy party store open [[YOBS, Zaccaros).

Pass that kush when you're done. I want to see that too...

[SDCC]

Question, is this image the extent of the M1 Rail?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The current plan stops in the New Center; immediate plans to go out to the Fairgrounds have been jettisoned. Maybe in the future. http://m-1rail.com/streetcar-line/station-stops/

[animatedmartian]

Question, is this image the extent of the M1 Rail?

Nope. It stops at New Center. That was the original proposal where it was hoped that the private supporters would pay for construction and operate it for a time before handing it over to Detroit. Then a few weeks later, Detroit filed for bankruptcy and considered this plan dead.

However, M1 Rail supporters do hope that in time it will be able to extend to 8 Mile and even all the way to Pontiac as well as other possible routes, but of course at this rate, it'll be a few decades if that ever comes to fruition.

[SDCC]

Found this pic

[nain rouge]

If and when they build this, it's going to be so dumb that it stops where it does downtown without connecting to the People Mover track. It needs to use the People Mover infrastructure somehow or else it's going to dumbfound outsiders.

[animatedmartian]

If and when they build this, it's going to be so dumb that it stops where it does downtown without connecting to the People Mover track. It needs to use the People Mover infrastructure somehow or else it's going to dumbfound outsiders.

I think there's many people outside of Detroit who already know that the People Mover and the M1-rail are separate trains. The chances of people getting confused are low. Plus there going to be maps and posters inside the train and at the stations showing that the streetcar and PM are separate. The only ones getting confused will be those who are illiterate which would be a far bigger problem for them than it is for the streetcar to be connected to the PM.

[DetroitPlanner]

Pass that kush when you're done. I want to see that too...

$5 Billion in Economic Development and growth in the Euclid Corridor

• $62 million generated local taxes
• $180 million Cleveland State University master plan
• $500 million University Hospitals expansion
• 7.9 million square feet in commercial development
• 13,000 new jobs
• $350 million Cleveland Museum of Art project
• $506 million Cleveland Clinic Heart Center
• New MOCA landmark building
• 4,000 new residential units

http://www.riderta.com/healthline/about

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

It can't "connect" with the PM system, in a literal sense. M1 rail is at street level, going in both directions. The PM will never "connect" to a different train line of any sort. And M1 rail will stop at Grand Circus Park, if I am not mistaken mere steps to the new David Whitney entrance to the PM. Design of the stops is important, to make for fast and easy transfers, but switching from M1 to the PM does not seem like it will be challenge for anyone over 3 years old. This will confuse no one. The PM is the elevated downtown loop, M1 is the light rail up Woodward. Maps & signs will indicate this, although I scarcely think they would need to.

[SDCC]

The Light Rail is an integral part of the city in San Diego’s infrastructure. The trolleys multi task – the busiest line – Blue – picks people up at the border and brings them into downtown San Diego, to the Green line which stops at the Gaslamp Quarter – defined area downtown consisting of some of the nicest restaurants in San Diego, dotted with a few bars and high end nightclubs, then lightly sprinkled with some fairly non-descript retail shops. While the Green line runs along Harbor Drive, the trolley is separated from the traffic lane by a double wide island of grass, a fence, Amtrak Train track, fence, trolley track, and one more fence.
Anyway, next stop is San Diego’s tundra size [[2.6 million square feet) Convention Center. This same trolley line runs up to Mission Valley, which is hotel row, next stop is Fashion Valley Mall [[San Diego’s Somerset). This Green line continues on to East County and ends in the town of Santee – at this point the trolley runs right in traffic, right in the middle of downtown Santee [[which is a small city). Typically trolleys in San Diego don’t run on city streets, they may cross streets, but trolleys make their own roads.
There are 3 tracks, 3 lines, each track is approximately 17 miles long.
I think this enhances the area its in, and it appears its the beginning of a larger Light Rail system in Detroit.

[finster]

I sure hope this thing works out in a halfway decent way. Still can't believe the number of people just waiting for it to fail as nothing would make them happier. Can't imagine what people in other metros must think of a former major city that is so dysfunctional that private interests must pay for even a smallish version of a transit system just to get anything done around here. It is actually quite mind boggling when you think about it.

[jaytheory]

Pass that kush when you're done. I want to see that too...

Hes right something new is going up everyday.

Midtown Office Building
Lawrence tech building
Midtown Hotel
Apartments behind PNC and soon to be Lawrence tech
BIO research building
New Brew Pub
Lofts above the theatre
Red wings Arena
M1 Rail

Were else in Mich is 2 miles of road getting that much investment?

[jaytheory]

m1 goes from jeff to the blvd

[iheartthed]

Hes right something new is going up everyday.

Midtown Office Building
Lawrence tech building
Midtown Hotel
Apartments behind PNC and soon to be Lawrence tech
BIO research building
New Brew Pub
Lofts above the theatre
Red wings Arena
M1 Rail

Were else in Mich is 2 miles of road getting that much investment?

He said vacant lots along Woodward are potential. [[Please correct me if I misinterpreted you here DP.) I think that's absurd and I think that a large reason for why those lots are vacant is because Woodward Avenue in Detroit was built to be a dense environment served by a high capacity train system. If you remove the train system then you remove a critical element of the system that was allowing it to work.

Now, when you look at what's been developed in Detroit over the past two decades, the vast majority of it has been rehabbed construction projects [[ignoring the stadiums for obvious reasons). Off the top of my head I can't think of more than 5 projects that were complete new construction, and one of those projects was built on a park, not a vacant lot [[Kennedy Square). So again, how do vacant lots, which Detroit has in spades, produce economic potential???

[canuck]

He said vacant lots along Woodward are potential. [[Please correct me if I misinterpreted you here DP.) I think that's absurd and I think that a large reason for why those lots are vacant is because Woodward Avenue in Detroit was built to be a dense environment served by a high capacity train system. If you remove the train system then you remove a critical element of the system that was allowing it to work.

Now, when you look at what's been developed in Detroit over the past two decades, the vast majority of it has been rehabbed construction projects [[ignoring the stadiums for obvious reasons). Off the top of my head I can't think of more than 5 projects that were complete new construction, and one of those projects was built on a park, not a vacant lot [[Kennedy Square). So again, how do vacant lots, which Detroit has in spades, produce economic potential???

If major roadways in Detroit had kept their dual arterial function, the city might be in better shape. That would be conditioned by proper repair and investment in transit infrastructure on par with that of roadway repair I suppose.

Companies choosing to locate in a municipality examine the whole equation regarding transit options for their workforce; this is where Detroit is hurting when it comes to investment. I believe transit in all major cities are like the circulatory system of any living body. Even if in the future, cars became less problematic for the environment due to better energy options, mass transit would still be a powerful sustaining system for any given city. Try to imagine Tokyo without transit. heck, I read yesterday that Shinjuku station in Tokyo had 2.8 million subway users pass through it daily, 1.4 million bus users and half a million unattached pedestrians use it. That is the equivalent of Detroit's entire metro funnelled through one station dowtown. And it woyks doggonit, it woyks.

[masterblaster]

The Light Rail is an integral part of the city in San Diego’s infrastructure. The trolleys multi task – the busiest line – Blue – picks people up at the border and brings them into downtown San Diego, to the Green line which stops at the Gaslamp Quarter – defined area downtown consisting of some of the nicest restaurants in San Diego, dotted with a few bars and high end nightclubs, then lightly sprinkled with some fairly non-descript retail shops. While the Green line runs along Harbor Drive, the trolley is separated from the traffic lane by a double wide island of grass, a fence, Amtrak Train track, fence, trolley track, and one more fence.
Anyway, next stop is San Diego’s tundra size [[2.6 million square feet) Convention Center. This same trolley line runs up to Mission Valley, which is hotel row, next stop is Fashion Valley Mall [[San Diego’s Somerset). This Green line continues on to East County and ends in the town of Santee – at this point the trolley runs right in traffic, right in the middle of downtown Santee [[which is a small city). Typically trolleys in San Diego don’t run on city streets, they may cross streets, but trolleys make their own roads.
There are 3 tracks, 3 lines, each track is approximately 17 miles long.
I think this enhances the area its in, and it appears its the beginning of a larger Light Rail system in Detroit.

The above sounds like a wonderful rapid transit system. I saw that its construction began in the early 1980's, which is the same timeframe of the last major effort to build rapid transit in Detroit. $600 million was pledged by the federal government, but the Detroit mayor wanted a subway down Woodward, while the suburbs wanted light rail. The city and suburbs would not co-operate so we got nothing.



http://metrotimes.com/covers/how-det...1648373?pgno=2

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

All of the top 10 cities that did away with their street cars in the mid-20th century also went into population decline around the time that they did so, with the exception of Los Angeles. Those that either had subways or subsequently built subways have all been able to slow or reverse the decline since then. The single city that didn't is currently the largest city in U.S. history to ever go bankrupt.

Los Angeles was the least densely populated large city in the country during the mid-20th century, which means a removal of a transit option probably did not have the same effect as it did in denser cities back east.

Everything in your post in true, but it should not be read to imply that lack of transit was Detroit's great undoing. Cultural collapse in many communities in the city would not have been fixed by a subway, nice as one would have been to have. Poor policy planning can be seen as well- granted, with hindsight- on nearly every major issue from education to law enforcement to public housing. Detroit has been a half-century lesson in how not to run a city. That does include transportation, of course, but it includes a great many other things too. Nice homes might normally have nice appliances, but I don't think anyone would argue that the appliances make the home.