Belle Isle State Park

**Detroitnerd** · February-13-14, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Well, I certainly can't speak for all city residents, but most of us pay all the taxes that are due and have for many years. Goodness knows that me and members of my family have been paying all of our taxes in this city for way over 100 years. ... [snip]

Excellently stated, Al!

**ABetterDetroit** · February-13-14, 03:44 PM

C'mon you people can't be serious that you think this park lease actually had anything to do with parks. The police and fire depts are underfunded and over worked in Detroit. Lansing wanted to help. Unfortunately the other 9 million people in Michigan are all not on board with sending money to the D even if it's a damn good reason like public safety. [[ I know, go figure, maybe they got their own problems in some places and want money too )

So, Lansing figures maybe if we help with parks, we can sell that to the rest of the state because state parks are pretty common everywhere else except in Detroit And the D can use their park money on badly needed public safety. They also figured that while they were at it, making BI a whole lot better would be good for the city.
[[ I know, another go figure )

**Gistok** · February-13-14, 05:49 PM

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but for those of you who think Belle Isle isn't "all that bad"... we're all not old enough to know better....

It was SO MUCH MORE... long before we were all alive...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bell...cards&tbm=isch

And for anyone who has been in the forest on the east end of the island... it is a wretched swamp... suitable as a fiming location for a "Swamp Thing" horror movie remake...

GUSHI · February-13-14, 05:54 PM

Problem solved most Detroit cant afford car/car insurance, so will not have to pay a fee because they will be walking in,. Hey don't charge a fee-let the park be crap, you people do not make sense crying for $11.00. Hey guess what if I wanna drive in Stoney I gotta pay, if I walk I dont have, walking to Belle Isle is a nice diet plan for Detroiters are mostly over weight,

**Gistok** · February-13-14, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I don't really have a problem with the takeover, but there's no doubt the new ownership means a different type of park. This is no longer a city park. It's no longer analagous to the traditional major urban parks in the U.S. [[Fairmont Park in Philly, Forest Park in St. Louis, obviously the major Olmstead Parks in NYC area), it's now a fee-based, statewide amenity.

And common sense would dictate that some of the typical summertime Belle Isle activities [[cruising and picknicking) are now permantly curtailed, for better or worse.

OK... what are you talking about?

According to the state DNR.... "To ensure a smooth and seamless transition to Belle Isle as a state park, the DNR has adopted the current island park rules..."

How did you hear that cruising and picnic'ing would be curtailed?

**Gistok** · February-13-14, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by GUSHI

Problem solved most Detroit cant afford car/car insurance, so will not have to pay a fee because they will be walking in,. Hey don't charge a fee-let the park be crap, you people do not make sense crying for $11.00. Hey guess what if I wanna drive in Stoney I gotta pay, if I walk I dont have, walking to Belle Isle is a nice diet plan for Detroiters are mostly over weight,

Do they have "rednecks" in Albania? Because you sure do fit the bill....

GUSHI · February-13-14, 09:30 PM

Actually yes--We do have mountains and mountain people, we even make moonshine. Do you have rednecks in Germany?

Originally Posted by Gistok

Do they have "rednecks" in Albania? Because you sure do fit the bill....

**noise** · February-13-14, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Sorry Honkeytonk, but not all of us are high rollers like yourself.

I actually watch what I spend, and yeah, to me, $11 and 0 are different things. I won't pay $11 for a donut, and any $11 charge for something that was previously free will impact consumer behavior. The church picnic that previously cost 0 will now cost $500, yet people claim that this will have absolutely no effect on park-going habits.

The fact that people are actually debating this shows how far this thread has fallen off the deep end.

Hopefully consumer behavior will change. Less trash, more respect.

And the doughnut analogy is poor.

**Gistok** · February-13-14, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by GUSHI

Actually yes--We do have mountains and mountain people, we even make moonshine. Do you have rednecks in Germany?

Yes... we call them Austrians...

**Hermod** · February-14-14, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

OK... what are you talking about?

According to the state DNR.... "To ensure a smooth and seamless transition to Belle Isle as a state park, the DNR has adopted the current island park rules..."

How did you hear that cruising and picnic'ing would be curtailed?

Maybe they are afraid that the "current park rules" might be enforced.

**sheryl** · February-14-14, 08:49 AM

Lol. Love it!

GUSHI · February-14-14, 07:22 PM

Rofl sme Austrians may object to it

Originally Posted by Gistok

Yes... we call them Austrians...

**Schoolcraft** · February-17-14, 12:20 AM

What I don't get is, if this was about the state "helping" the city, then why didn't Kevyn Orr set up a Detroit booth on Belle Isle and let the city charge the fee? They could have charged $5 per Detroit car and $10 per suburban car and easily made up that $6 million. With the money they made they could have paid the state to do whatever maintenance they're doing on the island now. Partnership complete.

So obviously this wasn't about helping the city. This was about grabbing a profitable piece of property for free, using it to raise money for your own park system while Detroit's park system suffers. Detroiters will not ever see this supposed $6 million savings. The park down the street from me won't re-open and its grass won't be cut again because of this savings. It was a land grab. The Det news aided in it with a bogus poll saying that 60% of Detroiters supported the deal when I bet the people hadn't even read the contract. The Freep aided in taking it over by putting an article saying Detroit should give up Belle Isle every week. Bad deals like this are why Detroit is where it is now... we've been getting fleeced on pretty much every deal we make with the state since Coleman Young died.

**Gistok** · February-17-14, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

What I don't get is, if this was about the state "helping" the city, then why didn't Kevyn Orr set up a Detroit booth on Belle Isle and let the city charge the fee? They could have charged $5 per Detroit car and $10 per suburban car and easily made up that $6 million. With the money they made they could have paid the state to do whatever maintenance they're doing on the island now. Partnership complete.

So obviously this wasn't about helping the city. This was about grabbing a profitable piece of property for free, using it to raise money for your own park system while Detroit's park system suffers. Detroiters will not ever see this supposed $6 million savings. The park down the street from me won't re-open and its grass won't be cut again because of this savings. It was a land grab. The Det news aided in it with a bogus poll saying that 60% of Detroiters supported the deal when I bet the people hadn't even read the contract. The Freep aided in taking it over by putting an article saying Detroit should give up Belle Isle every week. Bad deals like this are why Detroit is where it is now... we've been getting fleeced on pretty much every deal we make with the state since Coleman Young died.

JoAnn Watson is that you??

Anyone who has an understanding of basic mathematics can understand the concept that "not spending $6 million on annual maintenance for a park" means being able to spend it elsewhere.... so why can't you?

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · February-17-14, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

What I don't get is, if this was about the state "helping" the city, then why didn't Kevyn Orr set up a Detroit booth on Belle Isle and let the city charge the fee? They could have charged $5 per Detroit car and $10 per suburban car and easily made up that $6 million. With the money they made they could have paid the state to do whatever maintenance they're doing on the island now. Partnership complete.

So obviously this wasn't about helping the city. This was about grabbing a profitable piece of property for free, using it to raise money for your own park system while Detroit's park system suffers. Detroiters will not ever see this supposed $6 million savings. The park down the street from me won't re-open and its grass won't be cut again because of this savings. It was a land grab. The Det news aided in it with a bogus poll saying that 60% of Detroiters supported the deal when I bet the people hadn't even read the contract. The Freep aided in taking it over by putting an article saying Detroit should give up Belle Isle every week. Bad deals like this are why Detroit is where it is now... we've been getting fleeced on pretty much every deal we make with the state since Coleman Young died.

Grabbing a profitable piece of property for free??? Was the city making money? Detroiters won't see the savings? If not that's the city's fault. It doesn't mean the savings aren't there. I guess you'd prefer a bankrupt city that can't maintain the place to stay in charge. It's still city land, under lease to the state which will spend more on it and maintain it better. That's an odd definition of a land grab. And you want some hack in a toll booth checking the location of each car's registration in order to access a fee? Now that sounds efficient

**mwilbert** · February-17-14, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

What I don't get is, if this was about the state "helping" the city, then why didn't Kevyn Orr set up a Detroit booth on Belle Isle and let the city charge the fee? They could have charged $5 per Detroit car and $10 per suburban car and easily made up that $6 million. With the money they made they could have paid the state to do whatever maintenance they're doing on the island now. Partnership complete.

That would have been a possible plan. However, I can see some problems.

As you will probably recall, a city-levied admission charge to Belle Isle was not politically feasible prior to the EM. If the EM had imposed it, people would be complaining about that.

Also, are you talking about a per-visit car charge or a per-year car charge? The city doesn't have any mechanism to impose or collect the latter, but a per-visit charge would seem to be much more of an imposition than what is being done now. On the other hand, the state can piggyback their admission charge on their existing system, which pretty much has to be more efficient than creating a new one.

In addition, the $6 million/year is savings that the city is expected to see is relative to the inadequate level of maintenance that existed at the park. The notion of the lease agreement is that the park will be maintained at a higher and more costly level under the state's management, so presumably you would need additional money to accomplish that. Also, it doesn't seem safe to assume that the state would be willing to perform contract maintenance of a city park.

So I don't see this as the obviously bad deal that you see. It seems like a net plus for the city, even if, hypothetically, some other arrangement might have pleased you better.

**corktownyuppie** · February-17-14, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

What I don't get is, if this was about the state "helping" the city, then why didn't Kevyn Orr set up a Detroit booth on Belle Isle and let the city charge the fee? They could have charged $5 per Detroit car and $10 per suburban car and easily made up that $6 million. With the money they made they could have paid the state to do whatever maintenance they're doing on the island now. Partnership complete.

So obviously this wasn't about helping the city. This was about grabbing a profitable piece of property for free, using it to raise money for your own park system while Detroit's park system suffers. Detroiters will not ever see this supposed $6 million savings. The park down the street from me won't re-open and its grass won't be cut again because of this savings. It was a land grab. The Det news aided in it with a bogus poll saying that 60% of Detroiters supported the deal when I bet the people hadn't even read the contract. The Freep aided in taking it over by putting an article saying Detroit should give up Belle Isle every week. Bad deals like this are why Detroit is where it is now... we've been getting fleeced on pretty much every deal we make with the state since Coleman Young died.

That's a lot of fancy words that don't make a whole lot of sense.

[[1) Do you really think the city could collect $6,000,000 in fees by charging at the door? That would be 800,000 individual cars at the average price of $7.50 per car. Best estimate is that we would barely get a quarter that number of visitors.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ative-blessing

Kahn said he does not believe that the 200,000 annual visitors to Belle Isle will turn into 200,000 people purchasing an $11 recreational passport.

[[2) Do you even know what a land grab is? Or are you just reciting someone else's bullet points? Detroit still owns the land and it's still in Detroit. A land grab would have to involve the transfer of property to someone who would generate a profit from it. Please state for the record your position that Belle Isle will be turning a profit so that 50 other people can smack that argument down with the cold, hard hammer of truth.

Belle Isle doesn't generate a profit. If you want to make the argument that Detroiters are going to be spending $10 million on annual passes and that Belle Isle will get less than $10 million in benefits/improvements/maintenance costs, go ahead....I dare anyone to put that in writing.

There's a lot to be disappointed about in the Belle Isle deal, and I wish that the State would have committed to the $10-$20MM in capital improvements in writing. But beggars can't be choosy. I still think the state will come through, but even if they don't, they are still saving the city millions per year in operating expenses.

Land grab, land grab, land grab, land grab, land grab. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people throw those words around without knowing what it even means.

Land Grab: An aggressive taking of land, especially by military force, in order to expand territorial holdings or broaden power:"

Land Grab: "Land grabbing is the contentious issue of large-scale land acquisitions: the buying or leasing of large pieces of land in developing countries, by domestic and transnational companies, governments, and individuals. While used broadly throughout history, land grabbing as used today primarily refers to large-scale land acquisitions following the 2007-2008 world food price crisis.^[1] Obtaining water resources is usually critical to the land acquisitions, so it has also led to an associated trend of water grabbing. By prompting food security fears within the developed world and newfound economic opportunities for agricultural investors, the food price crisis caused a dramatic spike in large-scale agricultural investments, primarily foreign, in the Global South for the purposes of food and biofuels production."

I think the problem here is that you are confusing assets [[things which have value) with liabilities [[things which cost money).

First, Detroit still owns Belle Isle. Second, we've owned it for 100 years. It doesn't generate profit. It costs us money.

Those acres of farmland that countries are giving away? Those are assets...they generate profit. Your 3 golden retrievers? Those are liabilities...they cost money.

If there's any seed of truth to the poster above, it's the notion that "what was ours is being taken away". Yes, if you are of the belief that Detroit is a Black City for Black People and that Belle Isle was the Onyx of the Nile River, a Jewel for Black People to have of their own...

Then yes, your jewel is going to change. As is your city. Detroit can no longer afford to be a city whose primary aim and loyalty is toward the Black population exclusively. Of course, I argue that that was never its aim and never should have been its aim. But that's another story.

Don't get me wrong...Detroit will probably always be a majority Black city. But if you want to pay for the city to run and provide services, you need to grow the tent a little and make some room for others.

Good news is that Belle Isle didn't turn into Oakland Hill Country Club. For merely $.90/mo, you too can enjoy that privilege and opulence of this jewel on the river.

**Schoolcraft** · February-17-14, 07:36 AM

This is not about saving money for Detroit folks... $6 million of a $1 billion city budget?? Hell we waste $10 million a year on the People Mover. Why isn't that being shut down if that's what this is about?

My suggestion is a per car charge, every time that someone drives on the island. You set up a booth, a car drives in, they pay $5 if they're a Detroiter, $10 if they're a suburbanite. If a person wanted unlimited access to the island they could pay for an increased Belle Isle conservancy fee of $25 at a or more at varying levels of membership. All the money would go back to Detroit. Instead, now the State can collect money for its own park system which has some of its own maintenance issues.

The State only budgeted $2.5 million for Belle Isle this year, so I don't know where the rest of the $6 million is coming from, but it ain't from the State. So they're actually spending less money on Belle Isle and charging Detroiters, many of whom who did not have State park passports before all of this to make up the rest. They're also keeping $2 million of money for water runoff on Detroit's tab. Thanks for the "help."

**NickCharles** · February-17-14, 07:39 AM

"Land grab, land grab, land grab, land grab, land grab. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people throw those words around without knowing what it even means."

Oh, yea verily. I could not agree more. And we could add quite a large handful of other words & terms to go with that one.

**Schoolcraft** · February-17-14, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Land Grab:An aggressive taking of land, especially by military force, in order to expand territorial holdings or broaden power:"

Land Grab: "Land grabbing is the contentious issue of large-scale land acquisitions: the buying or leasing of large pieces of land in developing countries, by domestic and transnational companies, governments, and individuals.

Isn't Belle Isle a large piece of land? Isn't it being leased to a government for free? Isn't the issue contentious? Doesn't it expand the state park territory? Are you going to tell me that I've misunderstood the definition of "land" and "government" next?

You must be crazy if you think Gov. Synder is going to take on something he thinks is going to lose him money.... He's a venture capitalist. He takes on entities that lose monies for others, reorganizes them and then makes them money creators for himself.

The city estimates the island gets 2 million cars a year, so yes, I think if the city charged they could make up the $6 million. I don't know where Kahn's 200k number comes from.

Belle Isle costs us money because we haven't charged for it like the State is doing. Don't tell me I own something that somebody else is using without paying for it. Would you let somebody live in your house for 30 years without paying rent in exchange for painting your basement?

And where did you get that I don't want other people living in Detroit besides black people? Of course Detroit's aim was never to be all black, white folks hightailed it out of here and separated themselves from Detroit, now you're claiming that black folk don't want to be around white people... are you serious?? There's clearly enough room in Detroit for everybody, but I'm tired of only this city getting screwed over by terrible deals and then being told "It's for your own good." When Kevyn Orr creates shitty deals that other people reject [[The water dept authority, the banks settlements) nobody says a word. But when he creates a shitty deal for Detroit the narrative is always "Take it you ungrateful bastards." You dummies fall for it every time.

**bailey** · February-17-14, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

My suggestion is a per car charge, every time that someone drives on the island. You set up a booth, a car drives in, they pay $5 if they're a Detroiter, $10 if they're a suburbanite. ."

So, instead of 90 cents a month for unlimited access to parks all around the state, you want to charge the poor hot families $5.00 PER ENTRY to one city park one that used to be FREE for them to use!?!.

You are clearly a cruel [[probably racist) plutocrat that lives each day to shit on the poors and especially those of the poors that are detroiters [[because we all know what you mean by "detroiter" is "black people"). How do you sleep at night? FOR SHAME!

**Honky Tonk** · February-17-14, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

Isn't Belle Isle a large piece of land? Isn't it being leased to a government for free? [[1.) Isn't the issue contentious? Doesn't it expand the state park territory? Are you going to tell me that I've misunderstood the definition of "land" and "government" next?

You must be crazy if you think Gov. Synder is going to take on something he thinks is going to lose him money.... He's a venture capitalist. He takes on entities that lose monies for others, reorganizes them and then makes them money creators for himself.

The city estimates the island gets 2 million cars a year, so yes, I think if the city charged they could make up the $6 million. [[2.) I don't know where Kahn's 200k number comes from.

Belle Isle costs us money because we haven't charged for it like the State is doing. Don't tell me I own something that somebody else is using without paying for it. Would you let somebody live in your house for 30 years without paying rent in exchange for painting your basement?

And where did you get that I don't want other people living in Detroit besides black people? Of course Detroit's aim was never to be all black, white folks hightailed it out of here and separated themselves from Detroit, [[3.) now you're claiming that black folk don't want to be around white people... are you serious?? There's clearly enough room in Detroit for everybody, but I'm tired of only this city getting screwed over by terrible deals and then being told "It's for your own good." When Kevyn Orr creates shitty deals that other people reject [[The water dept authority, the banks settlements) nobody says a word. But when he creates a shitty deal for Detroit the narrative is always "Take it you ungrateful bastards." You dummies fall for it every time.

[[1.) No, it is being leased to the State in return for the State sinking money into and revamping Belle Isle.

[[2.) Shoulda, coulda, woulda, yet they did nothing. Their only half-baked plan was to turn it over to a failed amusement park authority, and and receive, MAYBE, $1 mil a year. Which is more? 1$ mil a year, or $6 mil a year? Oh, I forgot, Plan B, wait for president Obama to hand over bacon.

[[3.) Affluent White, and affluent Black, people "high-tailed it out of here" because the City became unsafe and run down through mismanagement and incompetence, hence the Emergency Manager.

**GPCharles** · February-17-14, 09:21 AM

My suggestion is a per car charge, every time that someone drives on the island. You set up a booth, a car drives in, they pay $5 if they're a Detroiter, $10 if they're a suburbanite. If a person wanted unlimited access to the island they could pay for an increased Belle Isle conservancy fee of $25 at a or more at varying levels of membership. All the money would go back to Detroit.

Ideas along these lines were suggested for years and consistently shot down by Council.

**Schoolcraft** · February-17-14, 09:37 AM

You guys have some strange JoAnn Waston fixation that you've got me confused with. You've not seen me make the argument that Detroiters are "too poor" to pay to get on Belle Isle. The poorest of the poor Detroiters can pay for cable, iPhones etc. so they can pay to get on Belle Isle. The unfair part is that Detroiters now have to pay the same amount of money to get on the island as everybody else does. But we "own" it so it's cool.

You don't get to take something from somebody that they own because you don't like how they're using it. I know you guys think that's OK in the case of Detroit though, so that's fine. The State taking the land away from a city that did NOT belong to them under the BS premise of "You have a 19 billion dollar shortfall, but we absolutely have to save this $6 million or the world will end," is wrong period. But go ahead and tell me that we "own" it again so I can be happy even though we don't make the final decisions on it or get any money back for the lease. That obstructionist mayor we have in office now even said the deal was terrible. I don't know how we'll get anything done here with an obstructionist like that in office.

I know, I know. Kwame and Coleman sunk the city because they stole hundreds of millions of dollars and Krugerrands that are hidden away in a safe overseas. Coleman told the white people get of Detroit and never come back we don't want you when he became mayor. I get it.

**Honky Tonk** · February-17-14, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Schoolcraft

You guys have some strange JoAnn Waston fixation that you've got me confused with. You've not seen me make the argument that Detroiters are "too poor" to pay to get on Belle Isle. The poorest of the poor Detroiters can pay for cable, iPhones etc. so they can pay to get on Belle Isle. The unfair part is that Detroiters now have to pay the same amount of money to get on the island as everybody else does. But we "own" it so it's cool.

You don't get to take something from somebody that they own because you don't like how they're using it. I know you guys think that's OK in the case of Detroit though, so that's fine. The State taking the land away from a city that did NOT belong to them under the BS premise of "You have a 19 billion dollar shortfall, but we absolutely have to save this $6 million or the world will end," is wrong period. But go ahead and tell me that we "own" it again so I can be happy even though we don't make the final decisions on it or get any money back for the lease. That obstructionist mayor we have in office now even said the deal was terrible. I don't know how we'll get anything done here with an obstructionist like that in office.

I know, I know. Kwame and Coleman sunk the city because they stole hundreds of millions of dollars and Krugerrands that are hidden away in a safe overseas. Coleman told the white people get of Detroit and never come back we don't want you when he became mayor. I get it.

No, I don't think you do.