Plans unveiled for $650M Red Wings arena, entertainment district in Detroit

[ABetterDetroit]

Start a good business and they will come. I always eat downtown before any game I attend. The food in the Joe downright sucks, even the pizza is 5 times worse than the franchises. Right now the food and drinks at all the sporting events is a really low bar to beat.

[drjeff]

That would be fine if Illitch wasn't demanding the public pay half the tab.


I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised with something that isn't a closed loop feeding just Olympia, but I'm not expecting anything more than that.

Speaking of time capsules, just go dig up the claims of the "Entertainment district" that was to surround CoPa.

I'd just like to understand how this will be any different in result when you're putting the same group in control again.

I don't know what sort of "entertainment district" was proposed, but there essentially is one near Comerica Park now. There are many venues that didn't exist before the stadium and likely wouldn't have without it.

[Gistok]

In my opinion [[and it's only that)... people are thinking that Ilitch is going to do way more than I expect. The $450 million is going to get spent on an arena, and the other $200 million is going to be spread so thin in other developments to almost be laughable. I mean really... 45 blocks for $200 million?? After the parking decks are built, there'll be hardly anything left over for commercial, retail or residential.

The Ilitch's have been having big pedestrian redevelopment ideas since the 1990s for the Foxtown area... and nothing has happened. There was going to be a big "agora" a pedestrian marketplace along Columbia St., anchored by a Hard Rock Cafe at Woodward/Columbia between the Fox and Filmore... that announcement went nowhere. Then Ilitch was going to fix up the GAR, and had an option on that building... again zippo... then there was the Life Building on Park Ave., that was going to get refurbished for office and commercial... again zippo on that idea.

For anyone who talks about "walkability"... I have to laugh.... Walkability is from Campus Martius, and ends at GCP. Ilitch has seen to that. There's only walkability when a show is going on at one of the theatres, or a sports event at a stadium. Otherwise the area along Woodward from GCP to the Fisher Fwy. is a pedestrian ghost town. Ilitch has a hard time keeping restaurants going in Comerica Park or in the Fox Building, partly because of the sea of parking around Foxtown inhibits pedestrian activity. The only reason that Hockeytown Cafe is still going is because it's a destination in and of itself. If it depended on foot traffic, it would have gone the way of some of the now defunct restaurants in the Fox Building.

In order for the arena district to tie into downtown, Ilitch should have done so by now.... Foxtown isn't pedestrian friendly... and I doubt that the Midtown Arena district is going to be so either... certainly it won't be connected to downtown. And I certainly don't think that the $200 million is going to go very far in doing so...

The Town Pump's Sean Harrington isn't protesting the Arena district for his health... he knows fully well that Ilitch's dreams are short on results, and that businesses like his [[and Chuck Forbes) on Park Ave. have spent money on fixing up the area, only to have Ilitch sitting on his deteriorating and still empty properties [[and promises). Just look at the Fine Arts Building facade and United Artists properties... Just those 2 and the boarded up Blenheim Apts. and Life Building would eat up quite a bit of the $200 million in a heartbeat.

So while some here are rah-rah'ing the promise of the arena district and its' tie-in to downtown... I'm going to just sit back back and take a wait and see attitude, and hope for the best...

[bailey]

In my opinion [[and it's only that)... people are thinking that Ilitch is going to do way more than I expect. The $450 million is going to get spent on an arena, and the other $200 million is going to be spread so thin in other developments to almost be laughable. I mean really... 45 blocks for $200 million?? After the parking decks are built, there'll be hardly anything left over for commercial, retail or residential.

Plus one on the entire post... further, IIRC Pittsburg & NJ are the newest arenas and again IIRC they came in in the 350-400 million range to build.

[downtownguy]

Well said, Mr. G.

The Ilitch hype began with the Fox Theatre, and I drank the Kool-Aid back then. But as the years -- decades -- wore on, I've learned. Overpromise, under-deliver. That's the Ilitch game.

[Khorasaurus]

In my opinion [[and it's only that)... people are thinking that Ilitch is going to do way more than I expect. The $450 million is going to get spent on an arena, and the other $200 million is going to be spread so thin in other developments to almost be laughable. I mean really... 45 blocks for $200 million?? After the parking decks are built, there'll be hardly anything left over for commercial, retail or residential.

So while some here are rah-rah'ing the promise of the arena district and its' tie-in to downtown... I'm going to just sit back back and take a wait and see attitude, and hope for the best...

I agree, which is why I think he will concentrate his efforts along Temple, to connect the family's two properties. That, in itself, could be pretty cool - certainly a huge improvement over what Temple Street looks like now.

But I doubt we'll see much investment on Park Avenue, any development in the Vast Swath of Parking, or any major rehabs [[I suspect the American Hotel will become the Masonic Temple Parking Garage).

[ghettopalmetto]

The Town Pump's Sean Harrington isn't protesting the Arena district for his health... he knows fully well that Ilitch's dreams are short on results, and that businesses like his [[and Chuck Forbes) on Park Ave. have spent money on fixing up the area, only to have Ilitch sitting on his deteriorating and still empty properties [[and promises). Just look at the Fine Arts Building facade and United Artists properties... Just those 2 and the boarded up Blenheim Apts. and Life Building would eat up quite a bit of the $200 million in a heartbeat.

And that is a big reason I personally oppose subsidizing the Ilitch Arena/Parking/Mallplex. There are scads of hard-working entrepreneurs who have made a go of it in Detroit against-all-odds. All they get from the City are headaches [[at best) and undermining of their businesses [[at worst).

On the other hand, you have one of the most derelict property owners in the City receiving truckloads of cash to bring parking lots and--if you're lucky--tacky chain restaurants to downtown. Not only that, but the City backs away from enforcing any kind of zoning or providing requirements for the building types they want to see [[lest Ilitch create more suburban-like voids as he did along Woodward). Fantastic.

But hey...maybe Ilitch can franchise a Guy's American Kitchen and Bar. Because the shit sandwich that's being served can't be any worse with donkey sauce on it.

[jaytheory]

In my opinion [[and it's only that)... people are thinking that Ilitch is going to do way more than I expect. The $450 million is going to get spent on an arena, and the other $200 million is going to be spread so thin in other developments to almost be laughable. I mean really... 45 blocks for $200 million?? After the parking decks are built, there'll be hardly anything left over for commercial, retail or residential.

The Ilitch's have been having big pedestrian redevelopment ideas since the 1990s for the Foxtown area... and nothing has happened. There was going to be a big "agora" a pedestrian marketplace along Columbia St., anchored by a Hard Rock Cafe at Woodward/Columbia between the Fox and Filmore... that announcement went nowhere. Then Ilitch was going to fix up the GAR, and had an option on that building... again zippo... then there was the Life Building on Park Ave., that was going to get refurbished for office and commercial... again zippo on that idea.

For anyone who talks about "walkability"... I have to laugh.... Walkability is from Campus Martius, and ends at GCP. Ilitch has seen to that. There's only walkability when a show is going on at one of the theatres, or a sports event at a stadium. Otherwise the area along Woodward from GCP to the Fisher Fwy. is a pedestrian ghost town. Ilitch has a hard time keeping restaurants going in Comerica Park or in the Fox Building, partly because of the sea of parking around Foxtown inhibits pedestrian activity. The only reason that Hockeytown Cafe is still going is because it's a destination in and of itself. If it depended on foot traffic, it would have gone the way of some of the now defunct restaurants in the Fox Building.

In order for the arena district to tie into downtown, Ilitch should have done so by now.... Foxtown isn't pedestrian friendly... and I doubt that the Midtown Arena district is going to be so either... certainly it won't be connected to downtown. And I certainly don't think that the $200 million is going to go very far in doing so...

The Town Pump's Sean Harrington isn't protesting the Arena district for his health... he knows fully well that Ilitch's dreams are short on results, and that businesses like his [[and Chuck Forbes) on Park Ave. have spent money on fixing up the area, only to have Ilitch sitting on his deteriorating and still empty properties [[and promises). Just look at the Fine Arts Building facade and United Artists properties... Just those 2 and the boarded up Blenheim Apts. and Life Building would eat up quite a bit of the $200 million in a heartbeat.

So while some here are rah-rah'ing the promise of the arena district and its' tie-in to downtown... I'm going to just sit back back and take a wait and see attitude, and hope for the best...

your right but, there is a wild card here. m1 rail and the upcomming development in BP. residential in BP makes for income density and m1 makes for local destination. it just may work. hopefull it has little set back

[ghettopalmetto]

your right but, there is a wild card here. m1 rail and the upcomming development in BP. residential in BP makes for income density and m1 makes for local destination. it just may work. hopefull it has little set back

Well, there's the problem, jaytheory. Normally, these types of things [[setbacks) are enshrined in zoning regulations, to prevent the kind of debacle that took place on Woodward in front of Comerica Park. The City has no interest in creating any kind of requirements for Mr. Ilitch, based on an irrational fear that he will just up and walk away. DEGC exists strictly to funnel public cash to its preferred developers and contractors. Both have already bargained from a position of weakness, and I doubt that either one will do anything more than give Ilitch a free pass.

And given that Ilitch has no interest in seeing his customer base escape the Macedonian Sector, do we really expect him to voluntarily integrate his fab new development within the existing fabric of the city?

Ilitch isn't dumb. He knows that all he has to do is name the entrance to his compound Checkpoint Chelios, and the unwashed masses will flock there in droves. Maybe the boundary between Ilitchland and Detroit will be known as the Yzerman Line or the Russian Five Line. That'll *really* get people excited to drop their cash.

[Honky Tonk]

Mike Illitch? That bastion of public awareness, civic pride, and community spirit? What could posibbly go wrong here?

[ghettopalmetto]

Mike Illitch? That bastion of public awareness, civic pride, and community spirit? What could posibbly go wrong here?

He renovated the Fox Theatre!

[Honky Tonk]

He renovated the Fox Theatre!

Well shut my mouth..... recently?

[Hypestyles]

There should have been a formal Community Benefits Agreement, with ways to hold Olympia Entertainment legally accountable for hiring Detroit residents in temporary construction and post-construction ongoing jobs.
What was the breakdown on the yea/nay votes?

[Bucket]

There should have been a formal Community Benefits Agreement, with ways to hold Olympia Entertainment legally accountable for hiring Detroit residents in temporary construction and post-construction ongoing jobs.
What was the breakdown on the yea/nay votes?

Nay: Jones, Tate and Castaneda-Lopez.
Yea: The rest of council.

Castaneda-Lopez was quoted in the Freep saying her no vote was because the deal lacked a Community Benefits Agreement.

[jt1]

He renovated the Fox Theatre!

I didn't realize that we are talking about Chuck Forbes. Of course, the Elwood was mentioned earlier. That was only saved because of Chuck Forbes. Mikey wanted to knock it down.

[Gistok]

I didn't realize that we are talking about Chuck Forbes. Of course, the Elwood was mentioned earlier. That was only saved because of Chuck Forbes. Mikey wanted to knock it down.

... and lest we forget... the Adams was a working theatre when he bought it circa 1991... and he let it decay to a point where the wooden structural frame of the office portion collapsed, and the auditorium had 3 inches of mold on all surfaces...

[YounginDetroit]

I think one thing we're seriously undermining are the architects and they're qualifications. NBBJ from Boston are great architects known for taking on projects this size and are EXPERTS in urban planning and design. HKS who designed the cowboys stadium in Texas are obviously experts in how the stadium is designed. I agree the stadium will take up about 400 million, which is more than enough to build a stadium. The rest is 200 million which is going towards infrastructure[[and probably some surface lots). And adding towards this argument of Illitch owned property sitting vacant. From a business point of view it would have been stupid to develope anything on those sites especially with the economy tanking, remember Illitch is a business man.

[Spartan]

I think one thing we're seriously undermining are the architects and they're qualifications. NBBJ from Boston are great architects known for taking on projects this size and are EXPERTS in urban planning and design. HKS who designed the cowboys stadium in Texas are obviously experts in how the stadium is designed. I agree the stadium will take up about 400 million, which is more than enough to build a stadium. The rest is 200 million which is going towards infrastructure[[and probably some surface lots). And adding towards this argument of Illitch owned property sitting vacant. From a business point of view it would have been stupid to develope anything on those sites especially with the economy tanking, remember Illitch is a business man.

I'm not worried about what happens on the arena site nearly as much as I worry about what will happen around it.

[Novine]

"Is there a way to "time capsule" this thread and have it automatically pop back up in 2 or 3 years? The only evidence of the future will be supplied by time. We'll know then if it's all parking lots and habitrails, or if the Illitches seized the commercial bull by the horns and developed more than just an arena and parking lots."

You have 30 years of Ilitch ownership in the city to tell you how this will go.

[downtownguy]

He renovated the Fox Theatre!

With dollars he got from the public teet.

[Novine]

All you have to do is read Gistok's post. That's reality, not the BS posted by Ilitch apologists and kool-aid drinkers.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think one thing we're seriously undermining are the architects and they're qualifications. NBBJ from Boston are great architects known for taking on projects this size and are EXPERTS in urban planning and design.

Any work by an Architect, no matter how skilled or qualified, is subject to the whims of the Owner--in this case, Olympia Entertainment. If NBBJ produces a design that Ilitch doesn't like, it doesn't get built. Real simple.

I, for one, do not mistake the Ilitch family for an optimistic group of urbanists.

[CrashDummy]

So while some here are rah-rah'ing the promise of the arena district and its' tie-in to downtown... I'm going to just sit back back and take a wait and see attitude, and hope for the best...

I wouldn't really say there's a whole lot of "rah-rah'ing" being done. More like relief and anxiousness about something FINALLY getting started after like ten years of rumor and poorly kept secrets. Finally we know where this thing is going to be and maybe the rest of these properties can begin to have some kind of future. That's a little bit exciting, right?
And the whole sea of parking and giant parking deck thing is blown a little out of proportion. Comerica Park has exactly one rather modest size parking deck to the north of the stadium, which is mostly used by suite holders and administrative types. There is a lot next to that which is a decent size. There are the two aforementioned lots on Woodward, but they are not really that big - probably just over 250 cars between them. I don't think there would be any hesitation developing those two blocks given the chance. But I don't think it would be a parking garage, simply because the traffic patterns on game day are not conducive to it. There's the wedge-shaped lot next to the former Barden building, which interestingly enough was included within the entertainment district boundaries. And of course the former Madison-Lenox. All those parking lots behind the Fox were merely placeholders until the arena could be built there. They are now expendable since the arena won't be there, and there really aren't a huge number of people parking out there anyway.

[Khorasaurus]

Well, there's the problem, jaytheory. Normally, these types of things [[setbacks) are enshrined in zoning regulations, to prevent the kind of debacle that took place on Woodward in front of Comerica Park.

Technically, Comerica Park has 0 setback on all four sides. It comes right up to the street on Montcalm, John R, Adams, and Witherell. The problem wasn't zoning enforcement, it's that everything between Witherell and Woodward was demolished except for the churches and the Cheli's Chili building - creating the illusion of a setback.

[Gistok]

Technically, Comerica Park has 0 setback on all four sides. It comes right up to the street on Montcalm, John R, Adams, and Witherell. The problem wasn't zoning enforcement, it's that everything between Witherell and Woodward was demolished except for the churches and the Cheli's Chili building - creating the illusion of a setback.

Exactly... and I have a feeling that with the arena perimeter [[which is much larger than just the yet-to-be-determined arena footprint) that everything in that perimeter will again be demolished.

There is no reason that the arena cannot be built south of the existing Eddystone and Harbor Lights National Register historic hotels. But my feeling [[and likely most on this forum) is that Ilitch doesn't want them. What is going to happen is there will be a long drawn out battle between preservationists and the city over the removal of these 2 Louis Kamper gems, and Ilitch won't care, because the Federal Governments monetary penalties that are handed down for destroying historic properties on the National Register, they won't be borne by Ilitch... those penalties [[and lack of tax credits) will be paid for by public dollars.

As for the claim that Ilitch is a businessman, and didn't want to reclaim properties so as to not raise land prices. I can totally understand that... and it makes sense.

But Mr. Ilitch seems to have an aversion to reclaiming any historic properties, especially when one looks at the long list of buildings that have been demolished once he's assumed ownership! Ilitch has bought up a large number of buildings in the west Foxtown area, only to demolish them immediately... rather than mothball them in case the arena was built elsewhere. Now there is a barren wasteland of gravel in the west Foxtown area... where there at least used to be some buildings.

The one that was the most galling was one nice 3 story old commercial building on Grand River which had undergone renovation in the last 10 years. Ilitch paid top dollar for that spot [[I believe 3WC stated it was the most expensive land parcel for that part of town ever). Well he razed a perfectly OK restored historic 3 story building... and for what? So that his land bank remains as just land? Nothing that will ever be built there will match the craftmanship and appeal of what was torn down. But that doesn't seem to matter to him.

He's made a no-mans land of the area between Woodward and Comerica park.... he's made a no-mans land of the area of west Foxtown all the way to Grand River. We probably have Blair McGowan to thank that he sold the Royal Order of Moose gem on Cass Ave. to Ilitch with the stipulation that it not be torn down. Mr. Ilitch agreed, but unfortunately the empty but not derelict Chin Tiki Restaurant next door was not spared a similar fate, and was demolished immediately.

And now there's likely going to be a clean sweep of the arena environs footprint in south Midtown, which will contunue what was started earlier in east and west Foxtown. [[One should concede that besides the 13 story Eddystone and Harbor Lights towers, most of the buildings there are of little salvage value.)

When the stealth demo of the Madison-Lenox took place in May 2005 with the duplicity of the Kilpatrick Administration, Mike Ilitch got a 700K interest free loan for the demo, with the promise that it would be repaid if nothing were built within 7 years. Don't remember reading about either a project on the site, nor a repayment.

And how long do we have to wait to hear about anything done with the Fine Arts [[Adams Theatre) facade. The longer that sits there with our winter thaw-freeze cycle, the weaker the facade will become.

I hope no one is thinking that I dislike Mr. Ilitch, quite the contrary... as a man I like him very much, I even met him and got to shake his hand. But it's what his policy is towards Detroit's historic building stock that I don't like. For all the grief we give to Michael Higgins and Dennis Kefallinos for not doing enough with their properties... at least they kept their buildings intact.

When Mike Ilitch restored the Fox back in 1988, he was hailed as a businessman-preservationist. Well that hyphen was removed a long time ago....