Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

**bailey** · October-17-13, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

And what happens when your team isn't doing so great? If the Tigers weren't playing in October then what would the revenue at BW3 look like?
Not only does it offset the subsidies, but is the gimmick of using sports teams to attract people downtown an effective replacement for an actual central business district? Is BW3's bottom line better off having the stadium there or would it be better if there was a centralized business district downtown?

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

**iheartthed** · October-17-13, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

**bailey** · October-17-13, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

And if Troy and Southfield were in Detroit? Yeah, BW3 would still be there...

However, Troy and Southfield exist and we can't fix that unless there is a draw. Ford field and Copa exist now and that has had a huge effect on what people see and think about Detroit. . Detroit needs to be the "center" of stuff. Rightly or wrongly, today, the "center" focuses more on sports and bars and nightlife because very few of the bean counter or those with controlling interest at XYZ Industries, Inc gives a tinker's damn about anything other than which city/county is going to give it the best deal.

It is not a public private partnership. It is called extortion. If it was a true partnership then the City would be getting a direct benefit. Do you know how many additional waiters paying city taxes you would need to employ to make up $500 million amortized over 30 years?

I agree the formula is way, way out of wack.

I disagree that there isn't a significant economic multiplier effect that goes beyond just the waiters.

I mean, look around the immediate neighborhood... compare the DAC of the late 90s to the DAC of today. Compare the Gem or the tons of other venues that are getting a second wind around downtown like the Colony Club or places like Cliff Bells. Would the Broderick be renovated? etc.

**iheartthed** · October-17-13, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

However, Troy and Southfield exist and we can't fix that unless there is a draw. Ford field and Copa exist now and that has had a huge effect on what people see and think about Detroit. . Detroit needs to be the "center" of stuff. Rightly or wrongly, today, the "center" focuses more on sports and bars and nightlife because very few of the bean counter or those with controlling interest at XYZ Industries, Inc gives a tinker's damn about anything other than which city/county is going to give it the best deal.

Well, the Red Wings have played downtown for over 30 years with consistent playoff appearances and that never contributed much spin off. So is the renewed interest in downtown spurred by the presence of the sports teams or is it because of the investment in a previously discarded area of the city? Could that interest in the city's core still been sparked by attracting investment for other uses of the space?

**rb336** · October-17-13, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Well, the Red Wings have played downtown for over 30 years with consistent playoff appearances and that never contributed much spin off. So is the renewed interest in downtown spurred by the presence of the sports teams or is it because of the investment in a previously discarded area of the city? Could that interest in the city's core still been sparked by attracting investment for other uses of the space?

The Joe is as isolated in its way as the Palace. What do you see when you leave? tubes to take you to your car. The whole thing is designed with the opposite intent of what the new arena, Ford Field and Comerica have. It was designed to funnel people from freeway to arena and back again

**Wesley Mouch** · October-18-13, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by rb336

The Joe is as isolated in its way as the Palace. What do you see when you leave? tubes to take you to your car. The whole thing is designed with the opposite intent of what the new arena, Ford Field and Comerica have. It was designed to funnel people from freeway to arena and back again

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

**bailey** · October-18-13, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

this. and when the Wings or Tigers are on strike or don't go deep in the playoffs, there are daily stories in the news about how it's impacting businesses that depend on fans coming in.

Is it a net gain for the taxpayer? I think there are reams of studies to show it's not. Should that be corrected? sure. But pretending there is ZERO benefit is a bit silly.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-18-13, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

In spite of this, those I know in this business tell me they DO see spinoff from the Joe.

So everytime one wants to open a bar or restaurant, all you have to do is spend several hundred million dollars on a sports arena.

This economic development stuff is a piece of cake, yes?

**motz** · October-17-13, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

Little 'chicken vs egg' in those questions.... would there be a BW3 there if the Tigers played in Novi and the lions were still in Pontiac? Clearly BWs wouldn't be there if the Tigers were still in Corktown...because they weren't there before.

Red Wings and many other sporting events my friends. Midtown's sports option are alright [[Lefty's, Circa, 3rd St, Starters) but downtown is where to truly GOOD sports bars are, whether it be BW3, Bookie's, any number of places. Corktown has McShane's, which is good. But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

**downtownguy** · October-17-13, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by motz

But BW3 would be buzzing regardless of if the Tiger's were in the playoffs. It is a quality sports bar.

Nemo's is a good sports bar. The Lindell AC was a great sports bar. BW3 is a franchise restaurant.

**Spartan** · October-17-13, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by downtownguy

Nemo's is a good sports bar. The Lindell AC was a great sports bar. BW3 is a franchise restaurant.

...which is a great sports bar.

**motz** · October-17-13, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

...which is a great sports bar.

Bingo, just because it is a franchise doesn't mean it can't possibly be a good sports bar. They have reasonably priced beer, decent food to snack on, and there are 200 million 65" 1080p TVs everywhere. That is part of the reason why people watch a game at BW3.

Edit: And I hate to say it, but suburbanites REALLY like places like BW3. If you want to attract people from the suburbs to live or play down in Detroit, you're going to need to cater to some of their tastes. That includes BW3. Hopefully we will get a Cheesecake Factory too, but that is just the dreamer in me.