Dan Gilberts Retail Renaissance to include 70-90 retailers, including Target & Apple

**davewindsor** · October-10-13, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

So does marketing dollars establish the company or the quality?

Marketing dollars establishes the company. Pay attention.

**jt1** · October-10-13, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Marketing dollars establishes the company. Pay attention.

I was paying attention when you stated that he could not be on par with the other companies until he spent millions on marketing and establishing a brand. Establishing the company has nothing to do with quality. You are mixing the two.

You have mentioned that he has to spend millions to establish a brand to be on par with Gucci but have also insisted that they will be lesser quality. An established brand is not synonymous with quality.

If, on the other hand, you conceded that the quality may be just as good but the brand recognition would not be on par then I would agree with you.

So are you arguing about brand, quality or assuming the two are the same.
back to discussing beer, the best beers I have had come from companies with no brand recognition and no marketing

**davewindsor** · October-10-13, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

I was paying attention when you stated that he could not be on par with the other companies until he spent millions on marketing and establishing a brand. Establishing the company has nothing to do with quality. You are mixing the two. You have mentioned that he has to spend millions to establish a brand to be on par with Gucci but have also insisted that they will be lesser quality. An established brand is not synonymous with quality. If, on the other hand, you conceded that the quality may be just as good but the brand recognition would not be on par then I would agree with you. So are you arguing about brand, quality or assuming the two are the same. back to discussing beer, the best beers I have had come from companies with also no brand recognition and no marketing

I never said their product was of lesser quality. As I stated earlier, they are copying Gucci's "process". Process, for example, using the same high quality Italian fabrics as Gucci, which is the same thing a counterfeiter that makes replica Gucci handbags. Copies are not necessarily lower quality; they can also be of the same quality. There are replica Gucci handbags out there that are of the same quality as the original, just like there are replica Rolex's of varying quality that makes it hard to detect an original from a replica. Maybe you should reread my example of the Van Gogh. Is a forgery of a Van Gogh worth as much as the original? Is it worth half as much or is it just worth a nominal amount like the replica Rolex that is of the same quality? Think of Gucci as high end artwork. You can't make a copy and start saying your copy is on par with Gucci so it's worth so much more.

**bailey** · October-10-13, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I never said their product was of lesser quality. As I stated earlier, they are copying Gucci's "process". Process, for example, using the same high quality Italian fabrics as Gucci, which is the same thing a counterfeiter that makes replica Gucci handbags. Copies are not necessarily lower quality; they can also be of the same quality. There are replica Gucci handbags out there that are of the same quality as the original, just like there are replica Rolex's of varying quality that makes it hard to detect an original from a replica. Maybe you should reread my example of the Van Gogh. Is a forgery of a Van Gogh worth as much as the original? Is it worth half as much or is it just worth a nominal amount like the replica Rolex that is of the same quality? Think of Gucci as high end artwork. You can't make a copy and start saying your copy is on par with Gucci so it's worth so much more.

I know you think you're making sense... but you're not. Just saying.

**davewindsor** · October-10-13, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I know you think you're making sense... but you're not. Just saying.

I wouldn't expect YOU to understand. Just saying.

**Spartan** · October-10-13, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I never said their product was of lesser quality. As I stated earlier, they are copying Gucci's "process". Process, for example, using the same high quality Italian fabrics as Gucci, which is the same thing a counterfeiter that makes replica Gucci handbags. Copies are not necessarily lower quality; they can also be of the same quality. There are replica Gucci handbags out there that are of the same quality as the original, just like there are replica Rolex's of varying quality that makes it hard to detect an original from a replica. Maybe you should reread my example of the Van Gogh. Is a forgery of a Van Gogh worth as much as the original? Is it worth half as much or is it just worth a nominal amount like the replica Rolex that is of the same quality? Think of Gucci as high end artwork. You can't make a copy and start saying your copy is on par with Gucci so it's worth so much more.

Would I buy a painting that is of similar styling and quality to Van Gogh, cost 1/4 as much and I thought it looked good? Hell yes. Would I buy a suit that is of similar styling and quality to Gucci, costs 1/4 as much and I thought it looked good? Hell yes. You don't have to believe the guy when he says their suits are on the same level as Gucci, but there's no reason he can't say it. A new craft brewer will tell you his beer is similar to Founders. A new Detroit-style pizza restaurateur will tell you his pizza is similar to Buddy's. It's simply a positioning tactic. He's not claiming it IS a Gucci.

**wolverine** · October-10-13, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

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Oh, come on, Chicago is a completely different animal. Once the city rid itself of the Cabrini Green projects, gentrification there was obvious. Cabrini Green is right next to downtown neighborhoods that just got out of a major high rise residential building spree - I'm talking high rises so tall they'd be a major part of the skyline in Detroit. And the north side of Chicago has always been nice. The projects were an anomaly, not a rule, and now the projects are largely gone.

Meanwhile, we're still tearing down our tall buildings here. Our crime rates are significantly higher. We have maybe one or two employers that can compare with the companies in downtown Chicago. We have almost no significant retail, while Chicago still has the Miracle Mile and other areas.

Only a Detroiter would compare Detroit to Chicago. I'm not saying an Apple Store is out of the question maybe 5 or 10 years from now, but you're crazy if you think it's gonna happen anytime soon.

It's all political or the right business leaders talking. It could happen. And I don't think the comparison is that far off. Sure it's gentrified to the north and west. But isn't the same thing happening in downtown Detroit? Sure you still have the fringe areas or the people that might come downtown just to cause trouble. The case could still happen in Chicago...there's still fragments of Cabrini and there's a red line station right downstairs from the store.

I think an Apple store in Detroit would work. Why not start revitalizing with a higher end multi-national retailer? If it fails? Oh well. You can't complain before you try.

**jw101** · October-10-13, 08:32 PM

If you think about it, maybe the plan is coming alive in front of our very eyes. Gilbert owns entire buildings, and is even planning a major retail plaza in place of the soon-to-be-demolished [[hopefully) metropolitan building. I'm not exactly saying that I'm for getting rid of it, but my sister recently moved down there, and she simply says that it's "unsaveable." we all even heard that Bedrock just gave up on redevelopment, so what's the point? At least we won't get another parking lot out of it.

**gumby** · October-10-13, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by jw101

I'm not exactly saying that I'm for getting rid of it, but my sister recently moved down there, and she simply says that it's "unsaveable."

Oh, well now that your sister says it is unsavable I am completely convinced. Tear that sucker down.

**jw101** · October-10-13, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

Oh, well now that your sister says it is unsavable I am completely convinced. Tear that sucker down.

Haha, she actually works for Bedrock. You'd be surprised at how much crap it's been through.

**rjlj** · October-11-13, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by jw101

If you think about it, maybe the plan is coming alive in front of our very eyes. Gilbert owns entire buildings, and is even planning a major retail plaza in place of the soon-to-be-demolished [[hopefully) metropolitan building. I'm not exactly saying that I'm for getting rid of it, but my sister recently moved down there, and she simply says that it's "unsaveable." we all even heard that Bedrock just gave up on redevelopment, so what's the point? At least we won't get another parking lot out of it.

Your sister doesn't know shit.
Is your sister an engineer or an architech? If not, you and her should really be quiet.

**davewindsor** · October-11-13, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

Would I buy a painting that is of similar styling and quality to Van Gogh, cost 1/4 as much and I thought it looked good? Hell yes. Would I buy a suit that is of similar styling and quality to Gucci, costs 1/4 as much and I thought it looked good? Hell yes. You don't have to believe the guy when he says their suits are on the same level as Gucci, but there's no reason he can't say it. A new craft brewer will tell you his beer is similar to Founders. A new Detroit-style pizza restaurateur will tell you his pizza is similar to Buddy's. It's simply a positioning tactic. He's not claiming it IS a Gucci.

Hell yes? I highly doubt you'd mortgage the house and spend half a million for something similar to a Van Gogh. That's an empty claim. If you're willing to pay 1/4 as much for something similar to a Van Gogh, leave your number. I know a bunch of unestablished artists who can paint something similar to a Van Gogh for a couple grand and I'll flip it to you for half a million.

You call what they are doing a positioning tactic? I call it a complete lack of business ethics. They are acting like shady used car salesmen trying to sell something for a lot more than it's worth by making claims they shouldn't be making.

**stasu1213** · October-11-13, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by wolverine

It's all political or the right business leaders talking. It could happen. And I don't think the comparison is that far off. Sure it's gentrified to the north and west. But isn't the same thing happening in downtown Detroit? Sure you still have the fringe areas or the people that might come downtown just to cause trouble. The case could still happen in Chicago...there's still fragments of Cabrini and there's a red line station right downstairs from the store.

I think an Apple store in Detroit would work. Why not start revitalizing with a higher end multi-national retailer? If it fails? Oh well. You can't complain before you try.

Cities across America have thriving downtown/midtown districts and slumming areas outside of the downtown or main attraction district. Detroit is not unique.

**stasu1213** · October-11-13, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

Oh, you have a vision, alright. Your ideas remind me of the "secured" shopping centers in Phillip K. Dick's dystopian novel A Scanner Darkly, a place Robobcop would be perfectly at home shopping at. The whole city within a city concept is bunk - look at the smashing success of the Renaissance Center. Why Apple would have any interest in an idea like that is beyond me. And, by the way, beyond Apple.

Apple will do good business downtown despite of the so called "apple pickers" the work the downtown/midtown area. A good few undercover cops and decoys could stop that phenomenon. What good computer store is downtown? Computer Express is small and closes after business hours. Staples is too further east. The RenCen was a mistake but it is there and misses it's opportunity to have high ends stores inside the Winter Gardens such as Nordstrom, Lord and Taylor, and Neiman Marcus. I am excited for the new suit store. What the city need is more shops for women to shop for they do more shopping than men. More shops such as Urban Outfitters, American Eagle, Structure, The Gap, Anne Taylors Loft, Coldwater Creek are needed along the Woodward Corridor. I love the "local designer concept" but they only design and sell clothing for the trendy, hip hop, and artsy. What about the plan average consumer

**Spartan** · October-11-13, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Hell yes? I highly doubt you'd mortgage the house and spend half a million for something similar to a Van Gogh. That's an empty claim. If you're willing to pay 1/4 as much for something similar to a Van Gogh, leave your number. I know a bunch of unestablished artists who can paint something similar to a Van Gogh for a couple grand and I'll flip it to you for half a million.

You call what they are doing a positioning tactic? I call it a complete lack of business ethics. They are acting like shady used car salesmen trying to sell something for a lot more than it's worth by making claims they shouldn't be making.

You got me there, I was exaggerating when I said 1/4 the cost of Van Gogh. It really is a silly comparison anyway. We're comparing artwork to clothing. When people regularly start collecting suits, we can start making that kind of comparison. We're talking about clothing that you wear. Quality, durability and style are what is important here. If someone can sell me clothes with similar quality, durability and style for a fraction of the price, sign me up. Food would be a better comparison. If you like Outback for $20 better than the fancy steak place in your town that charges $80, why would you go to the fancy place? Just because it's fancy? That's just stupidity, really. Again, you're free to choose not to believe them that their suits are on a level similar to Gucci [[which you obviously do not), but there is absolutely nothing "shady" about them saying it. I don't know if they are on that level, but I hope they are so I can still get a nice suit and save some major coin.

**davewindsor** · October-11-13, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

You got me there, I was exaggerating when I said 1/4 the cost of Van Gogh. It really is a silly comparison anyway. We're comparing artwork to clothing. When people regularly start collecting suits, we can start making that kind of comparison. We're talking about clothing that you wear. Quality, durability and style are what is important here. If someone can sell me clothes with similar quality, durability and style for a fraction of the price, sign me up. Food would be a better comparison. If you like Outback for $20 better than the fancy steak place in your town that charges $80, why would you go to the fancy place? Just because it's fancy? That's just stupidity, really. Again, you're free to choose not to believe them that their suits are on a level similar to Gucci [[which you obviously do not), but there is absolutely nothing "shady" about them saying it. I don't know if they are on that level, but I hope they are so I can still get a nice suit and save some major coin.

Why is the comparison of a high end clothing line like Gucci to high end artwork silly? In a sense, they are very similar. When you buy a Gucci, you are paying for the name just like when you buy a Van Gogh. There's a value added component to an established name like Gucci.

You can make a knock off Van Gogh using the same quality materials and it's worth less than 1% of what a real Van Gogh is worth and no sane person would pay anywhere near what a similar Van Gogh would go for for a knockoff. The value is in the established name Van Gogh. Can you collect Gucci like Van Goghs? Yes. There's a huge Gucci aftermarket.

People collect Gucci like artwork. Here's a vintage 1947-1953 used Gucci handbag with a worn strap selling on ebay for $5,000 http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-Gucci-Bamb...item461384456e

Christie's Auction House provides free auction estimates for vintage Gucci items that they will sell for you here: https://www.christies.com/services/g.../overview.aspx

I have no idea how your comparison with food comes into play. If I pay a couple grand a year to be a member of say, the Windsor Club, which is basically an expensive restaurant, I didn't join to be fancy. I joined to network with other successful business owners to sell them products and services from my own business. If I have to wear high end brand threads like Gucci or Ralph Lauren to fit in, then that's just the cost of doing business.

**Spartan** · October-11-13, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Why is the comparison of a high end clothing line like Gucci to high end artwork silly? In a sense, they are very similar. When you buy a Gucci, you are paying for the name just like when you buy a Van Gogh. There's a value added component to an established name like Gucci.

You can make a knock off Van Gogh using the same quality materials and it's worth less than 1% of what a real Van Gogh is worth and no sane person would pay anywhere near what a similar Van Gogh would go for for a knockoff. The value is in the established name Van Gogh. Can you collect Gucci like Van Goghs? Yes. There's a huge Gucci aftermarket.

People collect Gucci like artwork. Here's a vintage 1947-1953 used Gucci handbag with a worn strap selling on ebay for $5,000 http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-Gucci-Bamb...item461384456e

Christie's Auction House provides free auction estimates for vintage Gucci items that they will sell for you here: https://www.christies.com/services/g.../overview.aspx

You're talking about vintage Gucci items, not a suit you wear to your office, wedding or funeral. Wearable clothing is not something that is widely collected. You're throwing out things that have additional value for non-product-related reasons. When it comes to products that you use, these things are not as important.

I have no idea how your comparison with food comes into play. If I pay a couple grand a year to be a member of say, the Windsor Club, which is basically an expensive restaurant, I didn't join to be fancy. I joined to network with other successful business owners to sell them products and services from my own business. If I have to wear high end brand threads like Gucci or Ralph Lauren to fit in, then that's just the cost of doing business.

I understand the point you're trying to make here and it is certainly a valid one, but it only applies to a segment of the population. I don't feel like I need to wear certain clothing to fit in, I just want to buy a nice suit that looks good on me. I think this applies to quite a few people out there.

I agree that sometimes you have to pay extra for things like social acceptance, at times. The food goes the same way. Yes, if you're taking clients out to dinner or meeting with VIPs, sometimes you have to overpay for the product to make an impression. If we're just talking about wanting a delicious meal though, perception is not an issue.

This company is not saying that you'll fit in with those types of superficial crowds. They're saying if you want to look good and have a high-quality suit, you can do that at a lower cost than other brands. They're not trying to say their suits are on the same prestige level as Gucci, etc, they're saying they're on the same quality level.

**davewindsor** · October-11-13, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Spartan

This company is not saying that you'll fit in with those types of superficial crowds. They're saying if you want to look good and have a high-quality suit, you can do that at a lower cost than other brands. They're not trying to say their suits are on the same prestige level as Gucci, etc, they're saying they're on the same quality level.

Yes they are. By saying they consider their product to be on par with Gucci, they are, in effect, saying their suits are on the same prestige level, but at a much cheaper price than Gucci. If they were only saying "if you want to look good and have a high-quality suit, you can do that at a lower cost than other brands" they wouldn't need to specifically associate their products as being on par with Gucci. By associating it with Gucci, they are associating it to Gucci's level of prestige instead of selling their suits on their own merits.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-11-13, 02:52 PM

Lets stop putting the cart before the horse. How about we worry about getting some stores that meet the basic needs of residents and workers downtown before we worry about Apple, Gucci or Ralph?

Even a Family Dollar in the CBD would be welcome as they do have basic brand name house goods and cleaning supplies.

**bailey** · October-11-13, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Lets stop putting the cart before the horse. How about we worry about getting some stores that meet the basic needs of residents and workers downtown before we worry about Apple, Gucci or Ralph?

Even a Family Dollar in the CBD would be welcome as they do have basic brand name house goods and cleaning supplies.

Well, do you really put a dollar store in what is supposed to be the marquee area of town?

**Spartan** · October-11-13, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Yes they are. By saying they consider their product to be on par with Gucci, they are, in effect, saying their suits are on the same prestige level, but at a much cheaper price than Gucci. If they were only saying "if you want to look good and have a high-quality suit, you can do that at a lower cost than other brands" they wouldn't need to specifically associate their products as being on par with Gucci. By associating it with Gucci, they are associating it to Gucci's level of prestige instead of selling their suits on their own merits.

I GUESS® we'll just have to disagree on this one

**401don** · October-11-13, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well, do you really put a dollar store in what is supposed to be the marquee area of town?

When the entire main street has been empty for 20+ yrs. absolutely you do. This is not the Miracle Mile. You try to keep the liquor and bail bonds places out but if Yonge Street in Toronto can have dollar stores so can Detroit. It's extremely difficult to have successful street level retail in today's environment and there will never be enough mid to high end stores to fill all of Woodward, let alone the secondary streets.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-11-13, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well, do you really put a dollar store in what is supposed to be the marquee area of town?

The only Marquee parts of town are Somerset Mall, 12 Oaks, and to a lesser extent Fairlane in terms of retail.

A family dollar is not a dollar store. It is a variety store much like what Woolworths or Kresge once were. For example you can't buy Sheets, Brooms or gallons of milk at a dollar store, but you can at a Family Dollar. Ten percent of what they sell costs more than $10. Most residents or office workers would appreciate a place to pick up something that they need in a pinch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Dollar
http://www.familydollar.com/pages/ho...+dollar+online

Bottom line is that it will generate pedestrian traffic, offer goods that are needed, and that in turn can be used to draw other retailers.

**motz** · October-11-13, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

A family dollar is not a dollar store. It is a variety store much like what Woolworths or Kresge once were. For example you can't buy Sheets, Brooms or gallons of milk at a dollar store, but you can at a Family Dollar. Ten percent of what they sell costs more than $10. Most residents or office workers would appreciate a place to pick up something that they need in a pinch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Dollar
http://www.familydollar.com/pages/ho...+dollar+online

Bottom line is that it will generate pedestrian traffic, offer goods that are needed, and that in turn can be used to draw other retailers.

Yeah, like that CVS on Woodward

**marshamusic** · October-11-13, 07:17 PM

I was chagrined when I read a story this week about the Bespoke guys, and they were quoted as saying that they are doing something different than has ever been done here [[ I paraphrase). The Beatty, an elegant men's' s store on Jefferson and Cheney, has been doing the same bespoke tailoring for years now, even the current "skinny" suits. Not to mention the stores back in the day that did custom tailoring - Scholnicks, and other, smaller shops.

Also, the article said that they believe a Detroit Style is "sprouting". I've been seeing stylish Detroit men all of my life; Detroit set the standards of sharp at one time. I found their quoted statements insulting.