Obama Care - Hillary Care II

[ccbatson]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

If unions are involved, some of them are currently on the hook for the health benefits [[ie the UAW), so, the public option for them is a no brainer, take the free public option AND WALK AWAY WITH THE ESCROWED CASH free and clear.

Where in these formulas, does individual choice fall? Little or nowhere. Where, or too whom does quality matter? The employer? The Union? The government? Only indirectly and as a minor consideration is the care a primary concern to these middle people.

Do you see much "choice" left?

[WolverinesA2]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

Even IF what you say is true, and I dispute that it is, how will that force out INDIVIDUAL private insurance? Under the Obama plan, will you be prohibited from buying an individual private health insurance plan? Yes or no? I don't have employer-sponsored health insurance, I pay for my own private health insurance as an individual. Will Obama force me to go on public health care or you preclude you or anyone else from obtaining individual private health insurance?

[rb336]

Here is how the private insurers will be forced out contrary to what Obama says:

Employers will choose what options to offer for most folks in the middle. The choices they have will be; a free [[or nearly free) public option, or the usual array of plans [[HMOs, FFS) costing them varying amounts, and therefore, also costing the employee some amount depending on their dependants and which options they choose. Here is where it really falls apart for the privates; any choice, other than the public option WILL BE TAXED AS INCOME.

If unions are involved, some of them are currently on the hook for the health benefits [[ie the UAW), so, the public option for them is a no brainer, take the free public option AND WALK AWAY WITH THE ESCROWED CASH free and clear.

Where in these formulas, does individual choice fall? Little or nowhere. Where, or too whom does quality matter? The employer? The Union? The government? Only indirectly and as a minor consideration is the care a primary concern to these middle people.

Do you see much "choice" left?

hey, if the insurance companies stop sucking away all our money and coverage so they can give their execs multi-million dollar bonuses, if they stopped spending so much justifying denial of coverage, perhaps they could compete. If they can't, then that great invisible hand of the marketplace will have spoken, and you should be happy with the result. after all, the markets are never wrong

[mjs]

Do you want lower costs or fewer denials? Despite what Democratic leadership has told you for decades, there's no such thing as a free lunch. We all split the bill. If we eat at Andiamo's and try each course, your share of the bill will be more than if we go to McDonald's and all get happy meals. I can afford Andiamo's better than most of those that want Andiamo's, but a large part of that is that I'm frugal so I can be just as happy with the happy meal. Unless you're self employed, the fact you're not under a company health care plan tells me that your going to have a harder time chipping in for Andiamo's and making it to the bar on Friday so lets just all go enjoy that happy meal.

[rb336]

European systems have far lower costs, far fewer denials of coverage and better outcomes.

that, my friend, is a win-win-win situation, paying for butt steak and getting filet mignon, whereas we are paying for filet mignon and getting mystery meat

[mjs]

Prove the fewer denials or higher surgical success rates. Foreigners come here for training and life saving surgeries. We go to other nations for humanitarian reasons and to get cosmetic surgery thats too dangerous to be allowed in the US.

[WolverinesA2]

We go to other nations for humanitarian reasons and to get cosmetic surgery thats too dangerous to be allowed in the US.

That is a flat out lie. In 2008, an estimated 1.5 million Americans went overseas for cheaper medical care. You're telling me that all of them went for plastic surgery? You'd be wrong.

[turkeycall]

Lorax quote: "I say put the f.....s out of business and start a single payer system, which we already have in Medicare. Simply expand it to include all Americans."

You have just described H.R. 676, The United States National Health Care Act [[or The Expanded and Improved Medicare For All Act). It was introduced by Rep. Conyers in 2007 and is co-sponsored by at least 42 other Representitives. It is a Bill To provide for comprehensive health insurance coverage for all United States residents.

A Senate version, S. 703, was introduced in 2009.

[Lorax]

That is a flat out lie. In 2008, an estimated 1.5 million Americans went overseas for cheaper medical care. You're telling me that all of them went for plastic surgery? You'd be wrong.

Right-on. I personally know people who go to Mexico for dental work, which is often not included in private insurance here. A root canal in Mexico costs about 350.00. Cosmetic dentistry such as caps and veneers cost less than half what it does here.

Like I've said before, bring down the costs of all tangible goods, and some services, and we all win.

[mjs]

"paying for butt steak and getting filet mignon"

Which real world restaurant advertises this special?

[mjs]

I know that "Evil is such a judgemental and potentially strident term that it automatically conjures critique." My post was commenting on the foaming at the mouth judgemental critique style of some people's posts about insurance companies. A short summary of even a half page of posts: insurance is pure evil so we need to put it in the loving arms of big brother. Not my opinion, but their's. I'm also asking "Why use a sledgehammer to pound in a tack?"

So, just like right now, the only bureaucrats who will be deciding what care you receive, how much the doctor gets paid, and how services will be rationed to you will be those bureaucrats working for your insurance company. Ever hear of pre-certification? Utilization reviews? Yeah, I'm sure your for-profit insurance company cares more about your well-being than the government does.

Do you want someone whose $20 million annual compensation depends on screwing you out of coverage for an essential procedure? that is what we have now.

that one line shows just how credulous you are, falling for the entire republican/big insurance lie hook, line and sinker

And I'll tell you something else. Insurnace companies DO NOT CARE about your health. Studies have shown that most people will stay with a health insurance company for an average of 10 years. So really, insurance companies are only interested in keeping you health for the short-term future. They don't care what happens once you're not on the roster anymore. . . And on top of that, once you hit age 65, you become eligible for Medicare and thus you and all your medical problems can be dumped on the federal government.

Quote: "Anyone who thinks the system we have is fine is just whistling past the graveyard."

Or they haven't lost theirs yet.

People that think all is ok, are not paying their own insurance. I pay my own and can attest these insurance companies need to regulated hard. They can do whatever the F they want. You have two choices, like it or not.

hey, if the insurance companies stop sucking away all our money and coverage so they can give their execs multi-million dollar bonuses, if they stopped spending so much justifying denial of coverage, perhaps they could compete. If they can't, then that great invisible hand of the marketplace will have spoken, and you should be happy with the result. after all, the markets are never wrong.

I very rarely see groups or situations as good or evil. People are good or evil. I don't get angry over any problems with the status quo because I always figure they can either be fixed with scarifice and trade-offs or they are the best choice in an imperfect world.

[vetalalumni]

I'm also asking "Why use a sledgehammer to pound in a tack?"

Very clever of you counselor Admittedly, you and others usually cite "facts" and figures better than I.

My post was commenting on the foaming at the mouth judgemental critique style of some people's posts about insurance companies. A short summary of even a half page of posts: insurance is pure evil so we need to put it in the loving arms of big brother.

WolverinesA2, rb336, and Sstashmoo may [[should?) take issue with how you've shaped their positions. Their duty.

I very rarely see groups or situations as good or evil. People are good or evil.

Excellent point.

While I may and often do disagree with your posts, they tend to be thoughtful. Same can be said for the posts of few others, such as oladub and the infamous omaha.

[rb336]

Originally Posted by mjs
My post was commenting on the foaming at the mouth judgemental critique style of some people's posts about insurance companies. A short summary of even a half page of posts: insurance is pure evil so we need to put it in the loving arms of big brother.

WolverinesA2, rb336, and Sstashmoo may [[should?) take issue with how you've shaped their positions. Their duty.

Insurance companies are about anything but health care -- they are about making enough profit to give their CEOs billion-dollar bonuses [["dollar" Bill McGuire/United Health). to do that, they deny coverage, and when such denial results in a death, they are murderers. If you don't think such denials happen, and fairly regularly, you have your head buried very far [[in the sand, up something, you chose)

[mjs]

Rb336, which insurance or HMO CEOs got billion dollar bonuses? Please cite. Of course companies seek to make a profit and of course they reward those that help them get there; thats not evil within itself. When they don't seek to make a profit, we call them non-profit charities.

Vetalalumni, are you beginning to understand my point that some are basing their decision on demonizing insurance companies? Insurance executives are murderers? It speaks to whether people are looking for solutions for a better future or looking for revenge for perceived past wrongs.

I'm not mocking or being sarcastic when I say I greatly respect Obama for saying, "Each side will continue to make its case to the public with passion and conviction, but surely we can do so without reducing those with differing views to caricature."

[vetalalumni]

Vetalalumni, are you beginning to understand my point that some are basing their decision on demonizing insurance companies?

The "evilness" of an insurance company is not an argument that I'm making. I have not set out to defend or protect the position as that would be the defensive or protective duty of those asserting the position. The forewarning in your position has been heard. My position is less conclusive and seeks additional insight into the general discussion as a whole. You and I are on two different tracks.

[vetalalumni]

Insurance companies are about anything but health care -- they are about making enough profit to give their CEOs billion-dollar bonuses [["dollar" Bill McGuire/United Health). to do that, they deny coverage, and when such denial results in a death, they are murderers. If you don't think such denials happen, and fairly regularly, you have your head buried very far [[in the sand, up something, you chose)

Vilification of Heath Care Insurance is not my point. It is easy to be misunderstood in the DYes environment.

[WolverinesA2]

WolverinesA2, rb336, and Sstashmoo may [[should?) take issue with how you've shaped their positions. Their duty.

Never once have I suggested that we should abolish private health care coverage OR put it in the arms of "Big Brother." It is a fact of life that insurance companies DO NOT take clients who have pre-existing diagnoses of cancer. They don't. If you have a chronic pre-existing condition, you are essentially uninsurable if seeking private health insurnace. This is wrong. And because insurnace companies can cherry pick the young and healthy and rich, the poor and the elderly and the sick are left to the government to take care of. Or, if people like ccbatson had their way, there would be no Medicaid and Medicare, no government care, and the sick, poor and elderly would simply be left to die as they are unfit to live in a conservative social Darwinist society.

Back to UHC, here's what the Insitutes of Medicine have to say on the subject. The IOM is a non-partisan committee of top experts, part of the National Academies of Science, whose job it is to offer expert advice and reports to Congress and the White House. Here's a report from 2003:

Hidden Costs, Value Lost: Uninsurance in America
http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3809/4660/12313.aspx

Hidden Costs, Value Lost: Uninsurance in America, the fifth of a series of six reports on the consequences of uninsurance in the United States, illustrates some of the economic and social losses to the country of maintaining so many people without health insurance. The report explores the potential economic and societal benefits that could be realized if everyone had health insurance on a continuous basis, as people over age 65 currently do with Medicare.



In the report, the Committee concludes that the estimated benefits across society in health years of life gained by providing the uninsured with the kind and amount of health services that the insured use are likely greater than the additional social costs of doing so. The potential economic value to be gained in better health outcomes from uninterrupted coverage for all Americans is estimated to be between $65 and $130 billion each year.

The long-term financial benefits of UHC far outweight the costs of covering every man, woman and child in America.

From a fiscal POV, UHC will save us money. The costs of providing health coverage to everyone regardless of ability to pay will be offset by the multidue of benefits in other areas.

[4real]

UHC - it absolutely will not save money.
Saving money = Rationed Health coverage.
They determine what, when and how you will get it.
Look at the socialist countries, they all have shit care, look at a British persons teeth.
Canadians come to the US beacuse their system is a joke.

An another thing, [[that fat ugly pig whose husband cheats on her because she is so disgusting) Debbie Stabenow, wants this government controlled health system to go through. This social worker has never had a real job in her life.

I am urging all of you to vote this ugly bitch out of office, as well as that other piece of garbage penishead Senator Levin. He has been in office way too long and Michigan can't afford to have him ruin this satate anymore, like his dumbass brother too.

[rb336]

UHC - it absolutely will not save money.
Saving money = Rationed Health coverage.
They determine what, when and how you will get it.
Look at the socialist countries, they all have shit care, look at a British persons teeth.
Canadians come to the US beacuse their system is a joke.

An another thing, [[that fat ugly pig whose husband cheats on her because she is so disgusting) Debbie Stabenow, wants this government controlled health system to go through. This social worker has never had a real job in her life.

I am urging all of you to vote this ugly bitch out of office, as well as that other piece of garbage penishead Senator Levin. He has been in office way too long and Michigan can't afford to have him ruin this satate anymore, like his dumbass brother too.

i'm urging YOU to break out of that spoon-fed republicrap that you've been devouring. virtually every comment you have made is a flat-out falsehood [[ok, just so you can understand, that means a lie) straight out of the wingnut book, and not one claim can be backed up by anything resembling a fact. your comments about Senator Stabenow expose you as a vile, mindless cretin

[Lorax]

UHC - it absolutely will not save money.
Saving money = Rationed Health coverage.
They determine what, when and how you will get it.
Look at the socialist countries, they all have shit care, look at a British persons teeth.
Canadians come to the US beacuse their system is a joke.

An another thing, [[that fat ugly pig whose husband cheats on her because she is so disgusting) Debbie Stabenow, wants this government controlled health system to go through. This social worker has never had a real job in her life.

I am urging all of you to vote this ugly bitch out of office, as well as that other piece of garbage penishead Senator Levin. He has been in office way too long and Michigan can't afford to have him ruin this satate anymore, like his dumbass brother too.

Still waiting for you to write something intelligent.

LOL!!!!