Union Teachers ditch to attend anti-RTW rally

[noise]

Following that reasoning, employees have the choice of not working in dangerous conditions, or for minimum wage [[or below), or for Wal-Mart, or for an employer that blatantly discriminates on the basis of race, age, religion, ethnicity, etc...

Does this line of reasoning thus invalidate all those other liberal causes célèbre?

You followed that reasoning to a fork in the road and turned where it said, "do not enter".

That said, I agree with the idea that employees should be aware of the environments and conditions of their employment.

[noise]

Glad you made this statement. Obvious contradiction in liberal thought.

I also think we need to deflate the thinking bubble that you can already opt-out of joining a Union -- if say you want to work for the government. The logic presented is that you can choose not go join -- and only pay an equivalent assessment for your 'administrative' cost to the Union. HA! How do you think the Unions compute their 'political activity' cost? Does it include a proportional share of their administrative costs? When Bob King goes on Craig Fahle to tear Synder apart, is that time, travel, phone, and his support staff get counted as 'political activity'? I'll bet not.

Does anyone know what percentage of money the UAW spends on political activities? Is this the same as the difference between Union dues and 'non-member assessment'?

I do accept that the Union has 100% right to speak for itself and its members. As long as members can opt out of membership and not be compelled to fund ANY costs related to anything political.

btw, is anyone else offended that the City of Detroit pays DWSD employees to do Union work? Do you suppose they're prohibited from any advocacy / political activity?

There is absolutely no contradiction, aside from the conservative nanny-state ideas that have been floating around lately. Take some personal responsibility. If you want a union job, you need to join the union. You can't have it both ways. If you don't want to join the union, don't apply for the job. We don't need Republicans taking away personal accountability.

[noise]

I am 100% in favor of free speech. Its a very simple concept. I think the reality is that limiting speech is very dangerous. You don't have to read much history to see what happens when the media is restricted. Democracy is messy, and we sometimes get things wrong. But when Maroun's money gets slapped down, we see that truth can win over highly-funded deception. Let the money and speech flow!

But back to the thread... teachers and all Union workers should read the following article about who wins and loses with RTW. The biggest power shift will be within the rank and file. http://www.mlive.com/business/mid-mi...k_law_wil.html

Brilliant. We should all agree with an anti-union attorney about the benefits of RTW. Clearly, an unbiased and accurate source!

[mikefmich]

I strolled thru a few pages of this steaming pile...usual posts are....well usual posts.

Watching the "union debate" for decades has left me with one certain conclusion.
Those who harangue unions the worst, usually have a few cases of sour grapes lying about, or the green eyed monster, if you will.

And that's all I got to say about that! [[in my best Gump imitation)

[Baselinepunk]

If this is a workers "freedom bill" why do Republicans hate Police and Fire so much?

Police and Fire are people, too. If this is such a good thing, shouldn't they share in the "wealth", too?

[Wesley Mouch]

If this is a workers "freedom bill" why do Republicans hate Police and Fire so much?

Police and Fire are people, too. If this is such a good thing, shouldn't they share in the "wealth", too?

Although this looks like a money grab to the left, the truth is that most Republicans believe in freedom -- and that freedome will be better for all -- including the Unions.

But they also realize that the Democrats would pounce all over fire and police. I can hear the screaming about how we'll all be overrun by thieves as our house burns to the ground because the firefighters are in the soup kitchen instead of the firehouse.

One can believe in something, but give in to political reality. Look at Obama. I think he believes in single-payer healthcare. But he got in bed with the insurance companies to get a deal done.

If the Dems said they'd accept RTW and get to work reforming Unions for everyone -- not just seniority members -- I'm sure the Repubs would have no trouble adding police and fire.

[noise]

Although this looks like a money grab to the left, the truth is that most Republicans believe in freedom -- and that freedome will be better for all -- including the Unions.

But they also realize that the Democrats would pounce all over fire and police. I can hear the screaming about how we'll all be overrun by thieves as our house burns to the ground because the firefighters are in the soup kitchen instead of the firehouse.

One can believe in something, but give in to political reality. Look at Obama. I think he believes in single-payer healthcare. But he got in bed with the insurance companies to get a deal done.

If the Dems said they'd accept RTW and get to work reforming Unions for everyone -- not just seniority members -- I'm sure the Repubs would have no trouble adding police and fire.

Freedom to make decisions about your body? Freedom to marry whom you love?

[noise]

Here's the problem with Republicans pushing this stuff through...

They're idiotic enough to believe this is an issue:

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/12/mean...law/singleton/

[JVB]

Freedom to make decisions about your body? Freedom to marry whom you love?

Yeah I would disagree with that in regards to the Republican Party overall, although the Libertarian wing [[ie the Ron Paul supporters) definitely supports those things.

[JBMcB]

Those who harangue unions the worst, usually have a few cases of sour grapes lying about, or the green eyed monster, if you will.

I really don't care about unions one way or the other. The two issues I've had are work rules keeping me from doing my job - no, you can't carry that piece of equipment into the building, that's a loader's job, and the loader is at lunch, so you'll have to wait. That seriously pisses me off.

The second is, the one time I worked at a union workplace, engineers with seniority who could barely operate a paperclip were getting paid twice as much as the newer hires, some of whom were near geniuses [[not me This led to a high attrition rate from the new hires. Basically the senior engineers would make the freshmen do all the work until they burned out and quit. Keep in mind the senior engineers weren't managers, they were *supposed* to do their own work - they just became adept at pawning it off on others. The junior engineers would complain to the union, and the union would do nothing - the senior engineers get preferential treatment. This is my experience with unions "protecting the worker." I know it isn't a universal experience, but that's what I've seen.

[Wesley Mouch]

Freedom to make decisions about your body? Freedom to marry whom you love?

Who said Republicans are always right! I agree with liberty and freedom on marriage. I agree on woman's right to choose.

[Islandman]

I really don't care about unions one way or the other. The two issues I've had are work rules keeping me from doing my job - no, you can't carry that piece of equipment into the building, that's a loader's job, and the loader is at lunch, so you'll have to wait. That seriously pisses me off.

The second is, the one time I worked at a union workplace, engineers with seniority who could barely operate a paperclip were getting paid twice as much as the newer hires, some of whom were near geniuses [[not me This led to a high attrition rate from the new hires. Basically the senior engineers would make the freshmen do all the work until they burned out and quit. Keep in mind the senior engineers weren't managers, they were *supposed* to do their own work - they just became adept at pawning it off on others. The junior engineers would complain to the union, and the union would do nothing - the senior engineers get preferential treatment. This is my experience with unions "protecting the worker." I know it isn't a universal experience, but that's what I've seen.

This pretty much nails it for me as well. I could give two shits about union or non-union as well. I've never had a union and hopefully never will.

When I worked at EDS we would get in trouble if anyone in the union saw us carrying anything that required more than two hands. Instead of changing this idiotic rule, we would have to come in after hours [[after working all day) to move servers, etc.

One can go on all day about the benefits that unions have given all workers, that part is great, but don't try denying that unions also protect a lot of lazy people. It's not a myth, that is a fact.

[Meddle]

Yeah, I remember a HiLo driver who was drunk most of the time. Ran into stuff, caused damage, almost hurt people. Union wouldn't let the company fire the guy even though he was putting other union guys at risk of injury.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yeah, I remember a HiLo driver who was drunk most of the time. Ran into stuff, caused damage, almost hurt people. Union wouldn't let the company fire the guy even though he was putting other union guys at risk of injury.

The Union cannot stop the company from taking action. If the driver was dangerous, and this was documented fact -- not just opinion -- they should have immediately removed him from ability to endanger others. The Union has no power to compel anything. It can get really difficult. But if there's real risk of injury, the Company can prevail. But its a very tough road. I know. I've been there. Union pressure is no excuse to endanger workers.

[noise]

Who said Republicans are always right! I agree with liberty and freedom on marriage. I agree on woman's right to choose.

Certainly not I. I'm only slightly less disgusted with Democrats, so take this for what it's worth: I've never seen anything that indicates Republicans "believe in freedom".

[noise]

Yeah, I remember a HiLo driver who was drunk most of the time. Ran into stuff, caused damage, almost hurt people. Union wouldn't let the company fire the guy even though he was putting other union guys at risk of injury.

This misinformation about unions and what they can or cannot do is widespread. This ignorance, unfortunately, dictates a lot of public opinion.

[leapfrog]

I am selfish and I do not give a crap about others! Its not my job and if they got of their fat asses you would not have to worry about them either.

Sadly it is this attitude that has put our region in the condition its in. Its so easy to dismiss others with a flippant remark, isn't it?

Odd that this "much needed legislation" didn't need to be extended to Police and Firefighters Unions

[leapfrog]

Yeah, I remember a HiLo driver who was drunk most of the time. Ran into stuff, caused damage, almost hurt people. Union wouldn't let the company fire the guy even though he was putting other union guys at risk of injury.

I call BS on this one. This is just like the "welfare mom" canard. Everyone claims to "know someone" or "worked with someone" or "heard about someone".......As others have noted here, this worker would be handled by the company, regardless of what the Union has to say.

[leapfrog]

This pretty much nails it for me as well. I could give two shits about union or non-union as well. I've never had a union and hopefully never will.

When I worked at EDS we would get in trouble if anyone in the union saw us carrying anything that required more than two hands. Instead of changing this idiotic rule, we would have to come in after hours [[after working all day) to move servers, etc.

One can go on all day about the benefits that unions have given all workers, that part is great, but don't try denying that unions also protect a lot of lazy people. It's not a myth, that is a fact.

Facts can be documented, so please cite your source for your claim.
Otherwise its just another "urban legend" about Unions.

[prokopowicz]

Although this looks like a money grab to the left, the truth is that most Republicans believe in freedom -- and that freedome will be better for all -- including the Unions.

But they also realize that the Democrats would pounce all over fire and police. I can hear the screaming about how we'll all be overrun by thieves as our house burns to the ground because the firefighters are in the soup kitchen instead of the firehouse.

One can believe in something, but give in to political reality. Look at Obama. I think he believes in single-payer healthcare. But he got in bed with the insurance companies to get a deal done.

If the Dems said they'd accept RTW and get to work reforming Unions for everyone -- not just seniority members -- I'm sure the Repubs would have no trouble adding police and fire.

The libertarian view on RTW is that it is an infringement on the freedom of the company to create whatever kind of contract it wants to, or sees fit to. Closed shop contracts only happen with the company's consent. The company should be free to choose this route if it "wants" to.

But the libertarian view goes much farther and would not grant unions any legal status at all. They would just be a free association of people who want to speak as one with the employer. The employer is not obligated to listen to them, but will if they think it is necessary to hire the workers they want. Unfortunately, U. S. law has gone way beyond this in granting unions special status and forcing employers to deal with them, collect their dues, etc. Now some governments like Michigan think the balance has gone too far, so they add another layer of regulation like RTW. But balancing earlier restrictions on freedom with new ones is not the way to enhance freedom and choice. A better way is to reduce the role of government in employer-employee contracts. But this is too much to ask of our two parties.

[9mile&seneca]

I call BS on this one. This is just like the "welfare mom" canard. Everyone claims to "know someone" or "worked with someone" or "heard about someone".......As others have noted here, this worker would be handled by the company, regardless of what the Union has to say.

Wefare moms are a canard? So they are imaginary? Section 8 housing all a republican ploy? Boy I sure learn a lot on this site. Glad I saw this. Those housing projects sure look real though...

[noise]

Wefare moms are a canard? So they are imaginary? Section 8 housing all a republican ploy? Boy I sure learn a lot on this site. Glad I saw this. Those housing projects sure look real though...

I think you misunderstood him.

[Islandman]

Facts can be documented, so please cite your source for your claim.
Otherwise its just another "urban legend" about Unions.

My source was watching these lazy assholes sitting in their maintenance office screwing around all day, never fixing our AC, never helping fix lights, etc. in out area.

One day I'm moving a PC from one cubible to another, and I havd to go talk to two of my supervisors because these same assholes wrote up a grievance to the union. Apparently they had time to do that.

This was at EDS in the basement of the old GM building in 1999, not that I need to cite anything.

Another example was when I worked a summer job at the Marathon plant cutting grass and the pipefitters, making a shitload more than I did, would hide in the grass dykes surrounding the large tanks sleeping all day. And yes, I saw them because I was cutting the damn grass. This was in the summer of 1989.

I have had a long work history, but hopefully that should suffice.

Again, I'm not saying that EVERY union worker is lazy, but if you belive that it's an urban myth that some of them are, and are protected by unions from being fired on the spot, you need to put the crack pipe down.

Edit.: And if you don't believe me, I'm not going to cry about it. It happened, I saw it. I have no reason to make shit up.

[noise]

The anecdotal "I know somebody..." or "I saw somebody..." doesn't hold much water.

[Islandman]

Yep, it never happens. You guys are fucking hilarious. Really.

All good.