Lafayette Building next on DEGC hit list?

[Gistok]

Last time I checked there was a recession going on.... apparently some folks aren't aware of it.... and its' impact on developments in Detroit and elsewhere...

Ghettopalmetto, Fnemecek, Detourdetroit, et al... you might as well give up... there's a new batch of armchair experts that comes on this forum each year.... who know what's best with their "tear it down" mentality that is the malaise that has permeated America for decades [[if not centuries).

I'd suggest picking up a book and reading up about historical preservation... but their minds are already made up, so why bother confusing them with the facts...

In the 10 years I've been on this forum, we go thru this same silly argument every year [[the DYES archives are littered with them), and the success stories [[B-C, Shelby, Fox, State, Opera House, Orchestra Hall, Old Main, Merchants Row, etc...) and the lessons that they teach us continually fall on deaf ears... I guess the decade old "girder farm" on the Hudson block, or the 2 decade old emptiness on the Monroe block, and the 5 year old prairie on the Statler block don't really really mean anything to some folks once buildings have been torn down.

And then the ones who swear that nothing will never happen with places like the Book-Cadillac [[such as our old nemesis Brian, who raged on for years that nothing will ever happen to that dinosaur)... they then just disappear from the forum... because they don't want to hear "I told you so"....

Why waste your time arguing with a lack of openmindedness... just get these people a subscription to The National Trust, and be done with it....

It's not worth continually beating your head up against a wall of the uninformed year after year...

[ghettopalmetto]

If you knew your history, especially recent history, you would realize that there is a common denominator to the more succesful preservation projects. They were designed to make money. Non-profit stuff isn't going to get as much play. It may get some play, but not a lot.

Additionally, if you plan on doing preservation work, again, learn your history and identify preservation projects that worked and how they worked. Once any of you do that, you will realize that the OTSC, for all its good intentions and talented people, were out of their element and didn't have a clue as to what they were doing.

Who said anything about non-profit? Of *course* the idea is to make money. Remind me who makes money on empty lots again? Oh, that's right--NOBODY.

For what it's worth, though, in a down economy like this, it's the "non-profit", i.e. government and institutional projects, that keep the design and construction industry going. There are entire firms that do almost nothing BUT renovation and historic preservation. But feel free to continue guessing away, since you know so much more than all of us combined.

How much historical preservation have YOU done? How many renovation projects have YOU worked on?

Thanks for talking down to everyone again. It's been a pleasure.

[Fnemecek]

Amen, Gistok. Amen.

[bailey]

they then just disappear from the forum...

By choice one wonders? Been an awful lot of purges of those that don't tow the party line now havent there?

[kraig]

Who said anything about non-profit? Of *course* the idea is to make money. Remind me who makes money on empty lots again? Oh, that's right--NOBODY.

For what it's worth, though, in a down economy like this, it's the "non-profit", i.e. government and institutional projects, that keep the design and construction industry going. There are entire firms that do almost nothing BUT renovation and historic preservation. But feel free to continue guessing away, since you know so much more than all of us combined.

How much historical preservation have YOU done? How many renovation projects have YOU worked on?

Thanks for talking down to everyone again. It's been a pleasure.

The OTSC wasn't a non-profit? That's news to me. So a large font, bold and underlined lettering was all it took for you to get your undies in a bunch? You may want to look into developing a thicker skin.

Empty lots don't make money- Agreed.

But government and institutional entities aren't what you would fit into the category of non-profit. They have a different set of responsibilities altogether.

There are entire firms that do almost nothing but renovation and historic preservation. Agreed 100%. That goes to the learn your history aspect of my comments. Practically every succesful renovation project you find in this City is going to have someone with a bona fide background in historic preservation attached to it as a partner or consultant. The OTSC didn't have enough expertise in historic preservation. No real capital of their own and no historic preservation expertise attached to a Multi-Million dollar project. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone, but, you don't have to be psychic to see how that's going to end.

I've worked on enough projects, be it rehab, renovation, preservation or commercial to know that you have to possess knowledge of who you're dealing with. That's another aspect of knowing your history.

Who is the DEGC? Who are their Board Members? Who do they listen to? Why do they listen to them? What are the dynamics of projects that were approved? Who can I get to talk to the DEGC, the Mayor, City Council, Detroit Renaissance? How do I explain the benefits to them in a way that they want and need to hear it, as opposed to what makes perfect sense to me? What's more important to me, winning the argument or winning approval for my project? That's just a small sample of the kinds of things you need to go over if you're going to do business, period. Not only did the OTSC not have the expertise they needed, but they pushed the people with the practical business expertise to the background and didn't listen to the man that was working the hardest on the project. Not a recipe for success.

Even when I've mentioned the need to get proactive on this thread, all I've gotten back is the defeatist attitude that it won't do any good because the DEGC owns everything. Since the DEGC is not going anywhere, wouldn't it make sense to learn how to deal with them?

[heedus]

Like many presenting the counter-arguments [[that many of you just continue to dodge), I never portended to be "armchair expert."

I am unbashedly a huge supporter of the D. I talk up Detroit to anyone who will listen. But because all of my friends and family know that I am huge supporter of Detroit, my friends and family focus any of their negative sentiments towards downtown on me, especially when I wrest them from the suburbs and get them to spend their money here. While I don't agree with it, I can understand their feelings towards these buildings and how they'd rather stay in the burbs and spend their money where the buildings are lit and where they feel safe.

I don't think any of us presenting counter-arguments want the DEGC to go on a demolition rampage. We value preservation and redevelopment. I just think we are being a little bit more realistic about the current situation and prospects for the future. We can also see how having ALL of these vacant buildings downtown [[see partial list from previous post) hampers further redevelopments efforts. I mean, heck, even Ferchill, who is the saving grace behind the Book-Cadillac wants the Lafayette torn down.

So, I just ask that for all of you that have these strong feelings, please try to consider our position and not spin our arguments to something other than what they really are. I think it's great to keep the dialogue going even if it has been hashed out on here a thousand times before. If we're so uninformed, by all means, inform us.

[ScienceFair]

[quote=kraig;34685]OTSC didn't have enough expertise in historic preservation. No real capital of their own and no historic preservation expertise attached to a Multi-Million dollar project.quote]

Really? Not enough expertise in HP? I don't want to name names, but one of the brightest minds in HP that I have worked with was a board member of the OTSC.

Please Kraig, get your facts straight before you blow more virtual hot air into this forum.

[bailey]

your facts straight before you blow more virtual hot air into this forum.

when did having "facts" become a requirement to posting? If that was true, there would about 3 posts a day. Heck, this whole thread is based on a rumor.

[kraig]

[quote=ScienceFair;34691]

OTSC didn't have enough expertise in historic preservation. No real capital of their own and no historic preservation expertise attached to a Multi-Million dollar project.quote]

Really? Not enough expertise in HP? I don't want to name names, but one of the brightest minds in HP that I have worked with was a board member of the OTSC.

Please Kraig, get your facts straight before you blow more virtual hot air into this forum.

Mike is from the architectural end, not the conceptual development or presentation ends. The OTSC would have been better off with Tammy. Besides, Mike wasn't around that much.

I notice you didn't run your mouth about the money fact.

[ghettopalmetto]

[quote=kraig;34704]

Mike is from the architectural end, not the conceptual development or presentation ends. The OTSC would have been better off with Tammy. Besides, Mike wasn't around that much.

I notice you didn't run your mouth about the money fact.

I don't think the OTSC ever proposed to either own or design the damned project themselves in their free time. That's why you hire an architect and engineering team, and engage a property manager to run the damn thing. But you obviously know so much more about historic preservation than any of us posting here, so I digress.

You don't know a whole lot about the construction industry, do ya Kraig?

[kraig]

[quote=ghettopalmetto;34707]

I don't think the OTSC ever proposed to either own or design the damned project themselves in their free time. That's why you hire an architect and engineering team, and engage a property manager to run the damn thing. But you obviously know so much more about historic preservation than any of us posting here, so I digress.

You don't know a whole lot about the construction industry, do ya Kraig?

You did see the post that I was responding to didn't you? I was referring to Sciencefairs specific statement.

You can't do any of that if you can't afford to pay them. Which is why the OTSC didn't have anyone working on the project day to day, which is what they needed. You don't know a lot about business and finances, do you GP?

Have you taken your Meds yet? Or is it time for one of your famous daily meltdowns that we've grown used to?

Countdown, 4,3,2,1................

[detourdetroit]

i concur, thanks and you're right gistok. why oh why?

sometimes i think it would be worthwhile to designate some of these demo funds for travel to other cities for our lords of development [[and we could include more than a few who express themselves here). send them for a month or two to another city that actually understands how to leverage urban assets, and build and renovate real city buildings. it would be a great investment imho.

check your egos and your excuses at the gate.

[Gistok]

i concur, thanks and you're right gistok. why oh why?

sometimes i think it would be worthwhile to designate some of these demo funds for travel to other cities for our lords of development [[and we could include more than a few who express themselves here). send them for a month or two to another city that actually understands how to leverage urban assets, and build and renovate real city buildings. it would be a great investment imho.

check your egos and your excuses at the gate.

Thank Detourdetroit... your comments reminded me of something I just heard this week on a travel program... a quote from Samuel Clemens [[IIRC)...

"Travel is the nemesis of prejudice, bigotry and narrowmindedness".

[kraig]

[quote=detourdetroit;34748]i concur, thanks and you're right gistok. why oh why?

sometimes i think it would be worthwhile to designate some of these demo funds for travel to other cities for our lords of development



Great idea, that's actually worked out well so far.







Detroit pension trustees take flight on funds' tab

The Free Press sued to get the records. Little is offered; some were destroyed. Are the assets of city workers safe?

BY JENNIFER DIXON
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERThe trustees who oversee Detroit's two public pensions, their lawyers and staff spent $380,000 over the past year circling the globe to attend conferences -- often traveling in packs, with virtually no limitation on where they went or how often they traveled.
Trustee Ronald Gracia spent the most time on the road -- billing the General Retirement System for $105,000 in travel, including three trips to Singapore and $18,600 on travel to Hong Kong, according to records provided by the pension funds.
The two public pensions, with 21 trustees, have guarded their travel records from scrutiny. The Free Press sued to get the records -- which are actually only summaries from the past year.
The funds have yet to turn over actual receipts that would show, for instance, where trustees and staffers stayed and how they spent some of the money. Other documents have been destroyed.
However limited, these summaries provide a fuller snapshot than previously reported examples of the pensions' freewheeling travel practices.
The records also raise questions about how the travel squares with the trustees' legal duty to protect city workers' and retirees' assets, pension fund experts say.
Gracia declined to be interviewed. But in an e-mail, he said in today's world of global economics, trustees have an obligation to stay educated. He also said that the pension funds are in good financial shape.

Trustees' lavish travel draws scrutiny

In early November, bankers and energy executives gathered in Singapore for three days of talks about Asian oil and gas investment. And Gracia was among them.

After his 10-day, $20,000 trip, Gracia traveled back to Singapore in February for more than two weeks to attend back-to-back conferences -- on exchange-traded funds and the Pan-Asian real-estate business -- at a cost of nearly $16,000. He returned again in late March for his fourth Singapore conference, this one costing nearly $19,000.

Of the 21 trustees who oversee the city's two pension funds -- one for police and firefighters, one for general city workers -- no one traveled more than Gracia. His trips cost the fund for city retirees an estimated $105,000 in the past year alone, pension records show.
On some trips, records show, Gracia was approved to spend more than twice as much as colleagues for the same conference. He spent a full three months on the road.
Tough times for pensions

In all, the two funds spent $380,000 over the past year for travel by trustees, their lawyers and staff. Some of that travel occurred during an 18-month period in which Detroit's public pensions lost billions in investments.

Gracia said trustees have a legal obligation to be "continually educated."

"I would opine that in today's world of global economics and the interrelationships of multiple markets on many continents, it is a very steep learning curve for new trustees these days," Gracia said in an e-mail asking him to explain the purpose and benefits of his travels.

"Trustees have a fiduciary requirement which benefits the system by being able to deal with the business of trust funds with knowledge of what is before them and to be able to ask proper questions on investment issues. An 'empty-headed' trustee is no excuse under the law."
But John Chamberlin -- a University of Michigan professor of political science and public policy who teaches ethics -- said much of the trustees' travel seems like "an abuse of the public trust. It's not clear to me why one would need to go to Singapore or Dubai to get educated."
Loose travel policies

Trustees have a fiduciary duty to protect the assets of retired and current city workers. And yet, travel policies for the city's general retirement and police and fire pension funds appear to put no limit on the number of trips trustees and their top staff members can take, or how much they can spend in total.

Last year, trustees for the funds approved travel for more than 100 conferences worldwide; it remains unclear how many conferences they attended.

Sheila Kneeshaw, another general retirement trustee, spent 50 nights -- and $34,000 -- traveling to conferences and meetings in places such as Edinburgh, Scotland; San Diego, and Scottsdale, Ariz.

Kneeshaw did not return calls for comment.

Joe Harris -- the city's former auditor and chief financial officer under recently departed Detroit Mayor Ken Cockrel Jr. -- said the pension funds' spending on travel is "symptomatic of the abuse and the negligence ... in which the pension funds are being managed."

Susan Mangiero, president of Pension Governance Inc., an independent research, analysis and training company in Trumbull, Conn., said public pension plans need "a clear policy about travel. ... It's public money, and taxpayers and plan participants would like to know the money is being properly spent."

The policy should also address whether vendors are allowed to pay for trips. On some of the Detroiters' trips, the funds did not cover all costs -- and it's not clear who did. In one case, the trustees approved an investment after the company promoting it sent four of them to California wine country.
"It's important to have policies on what is deemed to be a legitimate and reasonable expense, from a governance aspect and budget aspect," Mangiero said.
The trips

Some findings from the released summary records:

• General fund trustee Susan Glaser billed the retirement system for 12 nights last December in San Francisco, where she said she attended a conference that lasted only three days. When she returned from her $7,242 trip, Glaser told fellow trustees that she had visited the San Francisco offices of investment adviser Adrian Anderson and his company, North Point Advisors, according to meeting minutes. Anderson provides investment advice to trustees for the funds.

Glaser did not return phone calls seeking comment, but a pension official said she attended a second conference in San Francisco that is not reflected in reports.

• Records show Gracia repeatedly left for conferences two or more days before they began and took days to return home, at the pension fund's expense. For example, he spent more than two weeks attending back-to-back conferences in Singapore. One was a three-day event; the other was a two-day meeting.

Gracia also spent 10 nights traveling to Singapore in late March for a five-day conference on Asia's power sector. He went to Hong Kong for a four-day conference at an estimated cost of $18,601. Another trustee, Wendell Anthony, also went to Hong Kong. He was gone six days and spent $9,421, about half of Gracia's tab.

Gracia said some trips involve a 12- to 16-hour time difference, and "it takes a few days for your body to adjust to that. ... It is brutal."

• While a grim economy has forced many organizations to forgo out-of-state conferences or limit the number of attendees, Detroit's pension funds routinely send four or more people to the same events. Kneeshaw and six other general retirement trustees and staff spent $26,310 to go to San Antonio. Six pension fund officials traveled to San Juan, Puerto Rico, in January at a cost of nearly $15,000. Another group of six traveled to Puerto Rico last July for nearly $18,000.

• Last October, a financial company paid much of the tab for three trustees to visit four vineyards in California's Napa Valley. The firm, Churchill Cos. of Clearwater, Fla., was seeking investment backing for a project that involved installing solar panels at the four wineries.

The trustees charged the pension fund $270 each for meals and miscellaneous expenses. The records do not show who picked up their airfare, hotel and ground transportation, but Churchill representatives acknowledged that they sponsored the trip.

A month later, the general retirement system invested $11.5 million in the solar projects through Churchill. Churchill President Keith Gloeckl said the loan was repaid in six months and called it "a great deal, a home run for a return on investments for the pension fund."
• As the Free Press previously reported, general retirement trustee Barbara-Rose Collins spent more than $20,000 in travel to a Dubai conference late last year -- the single most expensive travel tab by any trustee. She told the newspaper she didn't get much out of the trip.
Other notable journeys

The Free Press made repeated calls to several other trustees with notable travel in the past year, including Kneeshaw and Anthony, who also visited Dubai, but didn't hear back.

Police and fire trustee Marty Bandemer said his four trips -- to Scottsdale, Ariz., last September; Puerto Rico and Miami Beach over the winter, and New Orleans in April -- were for "continuous education." He declined to say what he learned, referring questions to the fund's lawyer, Ronald Zajac.

Fellow trustee Paul Stewart -- who went to Puerto Rico twice, Miami Beach, Phoenix and New Orleans -- also referred questions to Zajac.
Zajac did not return calls seeking comment.

[bailey]

Thank Detourdetroit... your comments reminded me of something I just heard this week on a travel program... a quote from Samuel Clemens [[IIRC)...

"Travel is the nemesis of prejudice, bigotry and narrowmindedness".

Many of the comments on this thread and this board remind me of another quote from Mr. Twain...."Denial ain't just a river in Egypt"

[detourdetroit]

yeah Kraig, i could see that one coming from a million frequent flyer miles away. and it really isn't the point.

my vision would be for the likes of george jackson and his minion d'hatchet to go to a place like nyc [[or similarly urban minded environ) and do an internship or something similar where he worked alongside his equivalent to see how different places do asset based development.

[Gistok]

Nice try Kraig... but your public travel links are nothing but a Red Herring to the points that Detourdetroit was trying to make....

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html

Having the folks at the DEGC visit REAL redevelopment locations and not Dubai, or other exotic boondoggle locations....

Funny thing is... first you're trying to defend the demolition decisions of the DEGC... and then in the same breath you're trying to say that they can't be trusted to conduct visits to other locations because they'll be just like pension fund and council members.

Either you're trusting of the DEGC decision making or you're not...

[kraig]

Nice try Kraig... but your public travel links are nothing but a Red Herring to the points that Detourdetroit was trying to make....

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html

Having the folks at the DEGC visit REAL redevelopment locations and not Dubai, or other exotic boondoggle locations....

Funny thing is... first you're trying to defend the demolition decisions of the DEGC... and then in the same breath you're trying to say that they can't be trusted to conduct visits to other locations because they'll be just like pension fund and council members.

Either you're trusting of the DEGC decision making or you're not...

When have I actually defended the DEGC demolition decisions? Do you view me pointing out the mistakes that were made by the OTSC as defending the DEGC? I do recognize that you have to be able to work with the public officials if you're going to enter into public projects with public funds.

What I was pointing out with the article is that just because you send someone to another place doesn't mean they're going to learn anything. If someone's not interested in learning you could send them to Harvard, Yale or Oxford and they are not going to come back any more knowledgable than when they left. On the other hand if someone is willing to learn, you could send them to WCCCD and they are going to absorb everything that they can.

Remember the phrase is free your mind and your ass will follow. You guys are hoping for free your ass and your mind will follow. And that's not going to work.

[Downtown diva]

yeah Kraig, i could see that one coming from a million frequent flyer miles away. and it really isn't the point.

my vision would be for the likes of george jackson and his minion d'hatchet to go to a place like nyc [[or similarly urban minded environ) and do an internship or something similar where he worked alongside his equivalent to see how different places do asset based development.

i wonder why george jackson and his people want to destroy everything in downtown.

[ScienceFair]

when did having "facts" become a requirement to posting? If that was true, there would about 3 posts a day. Heck, this whole thread is based on a rumor.

Exactly, half of this thread is based on rumor and it would be a more worthwhile exchange if more people knew what they were talking about. I like reading and posting on this forum to get insight into things that I may personally not know much about from people who are more knowlegable on the subject. I also like to share information that I have with people who are curious and may not know as much about it as I do.

So when someone starts "running their mouth" about people I know, I take offense to it. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if there is no one around to offer a counterpoint, people may take the rumor and speculation as fact and that's counterproductive to any sort of progress. To me, this whole thread and any associated thread seems to have devolved into more a product of Kraig's ego than anything else.

[Fnemecek]

i wonder why george jackson and his people want to destroy everything in downtown.

It's who they are. It's what they do.

John Dillinger and his crew robbed banks.

Jesse James and his gang robbed stagecoaches and trains.

Charles Ponzi robbed investors.

George Jackson and his confederates destroy buildings so they can hand out demolition contracts.

It's who they are. It's what they do.

The better question is: why do we put up with it?

Why do we keep electing politicians who put up with them?

[kraig]

Exactly, half of this thread is based on rumor and it would be a more worthwhile exchange if more people knew what they were talking about. I like reading and posting on this forum to get insight into things that I may personally not know much about from people who are more knowlegable on the subject. I also like to share information that I have with people who are curious and may not know as much about it as I do.

So when someone starts "running their mouth" about people I know, I take offense to it. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if there is no one around to offer a counterpoint, people may take the rumor and speculation as fact and that's counterproductive to any sort of progress. To me, this whole thread and any associated thread seems to have devolved into more a product of Kraig's ego than anything else.

So noted. I'm done with this issue and the Tiger stadium issue. No need to dwell on what's pretty much a done deal. The only thing left to do is whine about it and that certainly is being done. Good luck and Godspeed in all of your endeavors.

[313WX]

Compuware -Hudson's
Campus Martius -Hudson's
Ernst & Young -Kennedy Square Garage
Ford Field -Vacant Row Houses
Comerica Park -Vacant Row Houses
Greektown Hotel -Parwycke Apts, City Garage
One Detroit Center -Old Greyhound Bus Station
Brewery Park [[may be a little more than 20) -Stroh's Brewery
Chene Square -Vacant Property
IHOP on Jefferson -Little Harry's
Starbucks [[soon to be Tim Horton's) on Jefferson -Vacant Property.

Actually, Compuware was built on the grounds of Kern's & Crowley's [[respectively).

But look at all the places [[potentially significant in terms of architecture & skyline appearance) that were demolished, and nothing will likely appear in these spots for another 25 years...

Hotel Wolverine = Surface Lot
Madison-Lenox Hotel = Parking Garage
Detroit Commerce Building = Parking Garage
Statler Hotel = Vacant Lot
Hotel Tuller = Vacant Lot
Donovan Building = Surface Lot
Hudsons Building = Parking Garage
Adams Theatre = Surface Lot
Michigan Theatre = Parking Garage

[Downtown diva]

It's who they are. It's what they do.

John Dillinger and his crew robbed banks.

Jesse James and his gang robbed stagecoaches and trains.

Charles Ponzi robbed investors.

George Jackson and his confederates destroy buildings so they can hand out demolition contracts.

It's who they are. It's what they do.

The better question is: why do we put up with it?

Why do we keep electing politicians who put up with them?

since we all know that this, why dont we do something about it. I think we should write a letter to governor granholm about this. I am sure she would be very interested to find all of this out.

[Bearinabox]

since we all know that this, why dont we do something about it. I think we should write a letter to governor granholm about this. I am sure she would be very interested to find all of this out.

What's stopping you [[and the mouse in your pocket)?