I-94 Expansion Project [[Roadway to Detroit's Future)

[detroiter62]

I am not for free trade but for fair trade, fair trade encourages strong industry

[SteveJ]

The problem is back to the contractors. Yes, they meet specifications but groups like MITA have the legislatures ear and the specifications needed have been decreasing since the 80's. Its sad that big business runs everything and the politicians are bought and paid for.

[ghettopalmetto]

The problem is back to the contractors. Yes, they meet specifications but groups like MITA have the legislatures ear and the specifications needed have been decreasing since the 80's. Its sad that big business runs everything and the politicians are bought and paid for.

I presume you've read the construction specifications, and that you have sufficient engineering knowledge to make this determination?

[SteveJ]

I presume you've read the construction specifications, and that you have sufficient engineering knowledge to make this determination?

I'm a registered engineer and use the 2003 MDOT spec book on a regular basis.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm a registered engineer and use the 2003 MDOT spec book on a regular basis.

So how does the 2003 spec [[which I assume is current, based on your use of it?) compare to the specs from the 1980s? Cite specific portions, please.

[SteveJ]

Well actually the 2012 just came out in the fall but it only applies to jobs let in 2012 so I'm not real experienced with it.

I don't have a copy of the 1986 spec book at my house but I can tell you a few things. First of all, our roadways used to have reinforced steel in them. Now, we just pour concrete. Our penalties for poor asphalt mixes [[PWL) used to be more severe and typically they would be ripped out and have the contractor do it on his own dime. Now the contractor gets a penalty which is usually a meager 10%.

People wouldn't realize but its so unbelievably hard to battle with a contractor. As soon as someone threatens them with a possible liquidated damage, they are calling MITA and next thing you know a phone call comes from someone on top. I have friends that work for the state and they tell me about all the issues they are having. They have over 50% of their jobs consulted out because staffing level is less than half of what it was 20 years ago. So the consultant doesn't care as long as they can milk all the billable hours. Most of the jobs designed are by private consultants too and the quality is garbage but the legislature is pushing for outsourcing everything because they claim the private world can do everything cheaper and better. Yeah right, they bill $110 hour per person.

If you want to see the latest contractor debacle, check out the orange barrels on the freeway. The contractor got someone at the top to allow them to remove the lights so they don't have to maintain them. Their are no lights on the orange barrels anymore. Someone tell me how that is safer. Believe me, a lot of engineers are pulling their hair at this stuff but you can't do anything.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't have a copy of the 1986 spec book at my house but I can tell you a few things. First of all, our roadways used to have reinforced steel in them. Now, we just pour concrete.

What. The. FUCK??? That's the most incredibly insane, irresponsible thing I've ever heard!!!

Please see my previous posts on transportation engineering becoming politicized by the elected boobs. I really feel for ya, man.

[SteveJ]

Yes, you are correct. We basically are at the whim of big business. One thing that annoys me is this talk about car registrations going up by 60% for roads. That is ridiculous. Big business is the one that causes most of the damaged on the roads with their semi trucks full of god knows what in them yet the little guy is stuck paying for their damages. If you ever do a pavement design, the damage done by a semi truck is like the equivalent of thousands of cars. Yet, the thousands of cars are going to be paying the $100 a year extra and the business who owns the semi gets a tax cut. Only in America. I apologize, this topic is about I-94 but now I'm all riled up.

[DetroitPlanner]

What. The. FUCK??? That's the most incredibly insane, irresponsible thing I've ever heard!!!

Please see my previous posts on transportation engineering becoming politicized by the elected boobs. I really feel for ya, man.

You think thats insane?? I've heard that they no longer use portland cement, but now use sawdust and rubber cement! That and monkeys fly out of my butt!

[Gistok]

"Is this why it seems like they are repairing the same roads every few years ?"

I hear this all the time but with the exception of a handful of roads,this claim is 99% perception and 1% reality. If we look at the major freeway projects, MDOT isn't rebuilding the same roads every few years. Over the past 2 years, MDOT rebuilt stretches of I-96 out here in the Novi area. I can't recall when the last time MDOT did that but it's been decades, not years. I-275 was done a few years back. As far as I recall, the was the first time it was done since the freeway was built back in the 70s. People go around making this claim all the time and no one ever calls them on it.

Novine, that I-275 discussion reminded me of the fuss that was raised by Livonia residents over the last I-275 rebuild [[versus just black top repaving). Many residents along the I-275 corridor complained about increased noise levels due to the rebuild. I'm no road expert, but I have noticed the "grooves" that have been put into newly rebuilt concrete roadways in recent years. Likely this increases the noise level.

I live 3 blocks from I-94 in SCS, and once they started paving over the existing cement roadways with asphalt, the noise levels that filtered into nearby streets decreased dramatically, even though we already had huge brick barrier walls to keep down the noise levels.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yes, you are correct. We basically are at the whim of big business. One thing that annoys me is this talk about car registrations going up by 60% for roads. That is ridiculous. Big business is the one that causes most of the damaged on the roads with their semi trucks full of god knows what in them yet the little guy is stuck paying for their damages. If you ever do a pavement design, the damage done by a semi truck is like the equivalent of thousands of cars. Yet, the thousands of cars are going to be paying the $100 a year extra and the business who owns the semi gets a tax cut. Only in America. I apologize, this topic is about I-94 but now I'm all riled up.

Very interesting series of posts, SteveJ.

I'm not much of an 'occupy' fan, but there are some powerful issues related to the money out there. Unlike 'occupy', I blame the regulatory state we've created, to a degree. When regulations are so thick, I believe they can become more easily manipulated for gain. But back to the Ford...

Do you know what the specs for that 'European' stretch of Chrysler were -- and what do you think of them? What are the results so far? Any idea what 'quality' would be applied on the Ford [[94)?

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, you are correct. We basically are at the whim of big business. One thing that annoys me is this talk about car registrations going up by 60% for roads. That is ridiculous. Big business is the one that causes most of the damaged on the roads with their semi trucks full of god knows what in them yet the little guy is stuck paying for their damages. If you ever do a pavement design, the damage done by a semi truck is like the equivalent of thousands of cars. Yet, the thousands of cars are going to be paying the $100 a year extra and the business who owns the semi gets a tax cut. Only in America. I apologize, this topic is about I-94 but now I'm all riled up.

We've talked about this before on other threads. Here is another regressive "fee" which effectively represents a transfer payment, a subsidy from the struggling residents of Michigan to people like Matty Moroun and company.

[wolverine]

Novine, that I-275 discussion reminded me of the fuss that was raised by Livonia residents over the last I-275 rebuild [[versus just black top repaving). Many residents along the I-275 corridor complained about increased noise levels due to the rebuild. I'm no road expert, but I have noticed the "grooves" that have been put into newly rebuilt concrete roadways in recent years. Likely this increases the noise level.

I live 3 blocks from I-94 in SCS, and once they started paving over the existing cement roadways with asphalt, the noise levels that filtered into nearby streets decreased dramatically, even though we already had huge brick barrier walls to keep down the noise levels.

When was 275 redone? Modern screeding techniques produce concrete surfaces that generate as much or less noise than asphalt

[Novine]

Michigan State Transportation Commission Approves for Grinding I-275

http://www.constructionequipmentguid...ng-I-275/1394/

[DetroitPlanner]

"Is this why it seems like they are repairing the same roads every few years ?"

I hear this all the time but with the exception of a handful of roads,this claim is 99% perception and 1% reality. If we look at the major freeway projects, MDOT isn't rebuilding the same roads every few years. Over the past 2 years, MDOT rebuilt stretches of I-96 out here in the Novi area. I can't recall when the last time MDOT did that but it's been decades, not years. I-275 was done a few years back. As far as I recall, the was the first time it was done since the freeway was built back in the 70s. People go around making this claim all the time and no one ever calls them on it.

To most folks, a $100,000 thin overlay seems to be the same as a $40 million reconstruction project. An overlay is done towards the end of the useful life cycle of a roadway to extend it foor several years, and is actually very cost effective. Unfortunately, it would be even better if the State had the money to regularly do crack seal and patching projects which could add even more years onto a road's service life.

What amazes me here is everyone on this forum equates the widening of roads as a precursor for development when it is somewhere else. When it is in Detroit on a road that is falling apart anyways, in neighborhoods that could use a healthy dose of redevelopment, that have gone through a public involvement process that has included stakeholders from the City of Detroit, its a horrible thing. Everyone here is talking about the ripping down of the 4th street neighborhood, yet there has been no final designs drawn up yet. The only things moving forward now are a wider [[longer) Gratiot and Van Dyke Bridge.

Detroit is still an industrial City. We need to have proper infastructure in place that allows for the movement of goods or the City will whither and continue to die. The proper time to review the needs is during reconstruction at the end of the life-cycle. There have been parts of the freeway widened in recent years in Detroit [[between I-75 and East Grand) and no one has said a peep about those projects being a bad thing.

Now many of you think that all we need to do is to ignore roads and concentrate on transit. I have news for you. You just can't take Federal Interstate Maintenance, National Highway System, Bridge repair funding and spend it on transit. Its not a this or that as some folks seem to simply portray it. The only flexible funds are Surface Transportation Program funds and those are but a portion of all the federal dollars that flows to highways. The State could be taking transit's Section 5307 dollars and spending those on highways too, but that would be foolish. As foolish as what? As foolish as letting your roads go to hell so you can't move your goods to market!! Got to move both people and goods!

[Gistok]

Good post DetroitPlanner!

While I don't agree with everything about the expansion of I-94 [[such as the need for 3 lanes of service drives in each direction), there are some things that are truly needed. When you mentioned the part of I-94 east of I-75 as having been upgraded, it may have been related to the last rebuild of the Dequindre Yards bridge over I-94, as well as work between there and Mt. Elliott. In that area the freeway is already 4 lanes in each direction.... although the 4th lanes are exit only type lanes for Chene and Mt. Elliott going eastbound, and I-75 going westbound.

The real need for a 4th lane is on I-94 between I-75 and M-10, partly due to the closeness of the 2 interchanges to each other with Woodward Ave. between them.

[Novine]

"When it is in Detroit on a road that is falling apart anyways, in neighborhoods that could use a healthy dose of redevelopment, that have gone through a public involvement process that has included stakeholders from the City of Detroit, its a horrible thing. "

It's a "horrible thing" because it's spending money Detroit doesn't have on a freeway widening that's not needed. No one can demonstrate that Detroit needs more freeway capacity to thrive. No one can demonstrate that we need to increase the amount of infrastructure that's needed to be maintained now and into the future.There's no way that it's going to result in any kind of payoff long-term that's going to justify spending that kind of money.

[bartock]

"When it is in Detroit on a road that is falling apart anyways, in neighborhoods that could use a healthy dose of redevelopment, that have gone through a public involvement process that has included stakeholders from the City of Detroit, its a horrible thing. "

It's a "horrible thing" because it's spending money Detroit doesn't have on a freeway widening that's not needed. No one can demonstrate that Detroit needs more freeway capacity to thrive. No one can demonstrate that we need to increase the amount of infrastructure that's needed to be maintained now and into the future.There's no way that it's going to result in any kind of payoff long-term that's going to justify spending that kind of money.

Quoting DetroitPlanner:

"Now many of you think that all we need to do is to ignore roads and concentrate on transit. I have news for you. You just can't take Federal Interstate Maintenance, National Highway System, Bridge repair funding and spend it on transit. Its not a this or that as some folks seem to simply portray it. The only flexible funds are Surface Transportation Program funds and those are but a portion of all the federal dollars that flows to highways. The State could be taking transit's Section 5307 dollars and spending those on highways too, but that would be foolish. As foolish as what? As foolish as letting your roads go to hell so you can't move your goods to market!! Got to move both people and goods!"

[ghettopalmetto]

Quoting DetroitPlanner:

"Now many of you think that all we need to do is to ignore roads and concentrate on transit. I have news for you. You just can't take Federal Interstate Maintenance, National Highway System, Bridge repair funding and spend it on transit. Its not a this or that as some folks seem to simply portray it. The only flexible funds are Surface Transportation Program funds and those are but a portion of all the federal dollars that flows to highways. The State could be taking transit's Section 5307 dollars and spending those on highways too, but that would be foolish. As foolish as what? As foolish as letting your roads go to hell so you can't move your goods to market!! Got to move both people and goods!"

Who isn't able to move their goods to market? Is this really a complaint? Are we supposed to believe that commerce has exploded along this corridor, while the region's population has been stagnant and the market share of the automakers has declined? What, exactly, is Michigan getting for this $1 billion+?

Your comments regarding capital costs of the widening are technically accurate. But you [[deliberately?) fail to acknowledge that although widening would be 90% paid for with federal dollars, it would impose a PERMANENT increased burden on MDOT for maintenance. And given the current condition of that roadway now, it's quite obvious that MDOT is incapable of keeping up with current maintenance needs.

I love the hypocrisy here. Expensive and unnecessary road widenings go unquestioned, but proposed transit projects are beaten to death over every nickel. And people wonder why Detroit has fallen so far.

[iheartthed]

Now many of you think that all we need to do is to ignore roads and concentrate on transit. I have news for you. You just can't take Federal Interstate Maintenance, National Highway System, Bridge repair funding and spend it on transit. Its not a this or that as some folks seem to simply portray it. The only flexible funds are Surface Transportation Program funds and those are but a portion of all the federal dollars that flows to highways. The State could be taking transit's Section 5307 dollars and spending those on highways too, but that would be foolish. As foolish as what? As foolish as letting your roads go to hell so you can't move your goods to market!! Got to move both people and goods!

Quote one post on this thread that argued against doing repair work to I-94.

[bartock]

Who isn't able to move their goods to market? Is this really a complaint? Are we supposed to believe that commerce has exploded along this corridor, while the region's population has been stagnant and the market share of the automakers has declined? What, exactly, is Michigan getting for this $1 billion+?

Your comments regarding capital costs of the widening are technically accurate. But you [[deliberately?) fail to acknowledge that although widening would be 90% paid for with federal dollars, it would impose a PERMANENT increased burden on MDOT for maintenance. And given the current condition of that roadway now, it's quite obvious that MDOT is incapable of keeping up with current maintenance needs.

I love the hypocrisy here. Expensive and unnecessary road widenings go unquestioned, but proposed transit projects are beaten to death over every nickel. And people wonder why Detroit has fallen so far.

I quoted Planner's remarks because it seems that people think that someone money for LRT is being diverted to fund something like this. The increase maintenance cost issue is a compelling one...I would be curious to see what the annual estimates are.

...and, admitting in advance my ignorance, is there a string on that federal money for repairs if expansion is not included?

[Wesley Mouch]

I quoted Planner's remarks because it seems that people think that someone money for LRT is being diverted to fund something like this. The increase maintenance cost issue is a compelling one...I would be curious to see what the annual estimates are.

...and, admitting in advance my ignorance, is there a string on that federal money for repairs if expansion is not included?

Usually, when an item is old, its maintenace costs are great. That's why you schedule replacement.

After replacement, maintenance costs go down.

I suppose that there's some logic that an increase in road surface increases maintenance costs -- a road expert might pitch in here -- but I'd guess that total traffic is more of an issue in road wear. Especially heavy trucks.

And since more heavy trucks are a sign of wealth... well, you get the idea.

[DetroitPlanner]

...and, admitting in advance my ignorance, is there a string on that federal money for repairs if expansion is not included?

I am not sure what you are getting at here. Can you explain this better? Do you mean what would happen if we preserve roads instead of expanding them?

Operations and maintenance costs are huge issues these days. No one wants to add any capacity [[be it transit or roadway) that they can't afford to cover. We have dwindling resources and a lower utilization of roads, and an increase in the need to provide better transit. Now this does not mean that all needs are uniform, but an increase in capacity is generally done after the horses have left the barn [[in nearly all cases transportation responds to the needs, it will not add capacity until it has to). Again you will find some individual projects where this is not the case, but in general demands are given by the needs. I would suspect that if I dove into the EIS on I-94 I would be able to find issues and support from both GM and Chrysler who have large manufacturing centers along this corridor. This is because they need the parts to flow in and the cars to flow out in order to keep thier investments working properly and keep people employed in the area. Companies do not want these types of facilities to be on roads that are in poor shape because condition will slow down the movement of parts in, employees in, and product out. Would you want to buy a $40,000+ jeep or durango that has been put on the back of a truck and subjected to harsh pavements before delivery?? You can continue to repair a road that is slated to be widened, but it often makes more sense to do projects of this magnitude incrementally. I would only imagine what it would be like to work on this all at once [[I-96 to Conner).

[ghettopalmetto]

Operations and maintenance costs are huge issues these days. No one wants to add any capacity [[be it transit or roadway) that they can't afford to cover. We have dwindling resources and a lower utilization of roads, and an increase in the need to provide better transit. Now this does not mean that all needs are uniform, but an increase in capacity is generally done after the horses have left the barn [[in nearly all cases transportation responds to the needs, it will not add capacity until it has to). Again you will find some individual projects where this is not the case, but in general demands are given by the needs. I would suspect that if I dove into the EIS on I-94 I would be able to find issues and support from both GM and Chrysler who have large manufacturing centers along this corridor. This is because they need the parts to flow in and the cars to flow out in order to keep thier investments working properly and keep people employed in the area. You can continue to repair a road that is slated to be widened, but it often makes more sense to do projects of this magnitude incrementally. I would only imagine what it would be like to work on this all at once [[I-96 to Conner).

Here's what I don't understand:

The rationale for the proposed widening [[as with every highway widening) has been "to accommodate future traffic". Well, this plan has been on the books for 15 years--has the "future traffic" shown up yet??? If not, why is this widening suddenly necessary now?

[bartock]

I am not sure what you are getting at here. Can you explain this better? Do you mean what would happen if we preserve roads instead of expanding them?

Yeah, I was wondering if the federal money for a project like this mandates the expansion along with the repair/rebuilding.