Official Water and Sewage Dept. Control Thread

[Johnnny5]

"This uncivil war reached new depths in recent weeks as Warren’s city attorney threatened during a public hearing to have Detroit’s mayor and the director of its water department jailed."

Quote from the article [[Written in 2002).
.
Kwame in jail? The director of the water department in jail? Maybe the Warren city attorney should be running the water department. From the looks of it he/she had it figured out from the start.

[Detroitnerd]

Waaaah! How come their water is cheaper? Waaaah! I want it to be cheaper but don't want to blame my individual municipality for jacking up water rates! Waaaah! I want Detroiters to finance and subsidize the water I get, even though they are up to their eyeballs in debt because they built the system! WAAAAH! WAAAAAH! WAAAAH!

[rb336]

The differences between what the city and suburban customers want from DWSD is simply too great for both sides to be accommodated.

Essentially what one side wants is total control of the water system with zero liability [[said liability to stay with the City of Detroit)

[guito13]

Waaaah! How come their water is cheaper? Waaaah! I want it to be cheaper but don't want to blame my individual municipality for jacking up water rates! Waaaah! I want Detroiters to finance and subsidize the water I get, even though they are up to their eyeballs in debt because they built the system! WAAAAH! WAAAAAH! WAAAAH!

Your maturity and uncannability ability to reply with facts and numbers is astounding. It adds an unmeasurable amount of creditability to your posts.

As my previous post stated, I simply wanted to show the rates charged BY THE SOURCE, not any additional fees tacked on by the cities, are indeed higher for non-detroit residents.

[Detroitnerd]

Your maturity and uncannability ability to reply with facts and numbers is astounding. It adds an unmeasurable amount of creditability to your posts.

Haha. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me. For years, suburbs have had a choice, build your own water systems, like Highland Park or Wyandotte, or buy Detroit water, which is priced reasonably, compared to other systems. The answer was clear: Detroit can go into debt to create a system and come into compliance with all the federal regulations, we'll just buy the water. Don't like it? You can create your own water system, or you can whine about it like petulant children. WAAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

As my previous post stated, I simply wanted to show the rates charged BY THE SOURCE, not any additional fees tacked on by the cities, are indeed higher for non-detroit residents.

You are aware that Detroit's rates for suburban customers are reasonable by any national standard, aren't you? You are aware that it costs Detroit less to supply a densely settled city with water and sewerage than to pump water out to places where it is less dense and fewer people live? It's called market economics.

What? The invisible hand of the free market is bitch slapping suburbia? Waaaah! I want to blame it on Detroit! Waaaah! I want their water system for nothing because they're adding on a surcharge! Waaaah! Waaaah! Waaaah!

[guito13]

Haha. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me. For years, suburbs have had a choice, build your own water systems, like Highland Park or Wyandotte, or buy Detroit water, which is priced reasonably, compared to other systems. The answer was clear: Detroit can go into debt to create a system and come into compliance with all the federal regulations, we'll just buy the water. Don't like it? You can create your own water system, or you can whine about it like petulant children. WAAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!



You are aware that Detroit's rates for suburban customers are reasonable by any national standard, aren't you? You are aware that it costs Detroit less to supply a densely settled city with water and sewerage than to pump water out to places where it is less dense and fewer people live? It's called market economics.

What? The invisible hand of the free market is bitch slapping suburbia? Waaaah! I want to blame it on Detroit! Waaaah! I want their water system for nothing because they're adding on a surcharge! Waaaah! Waaaah! Waaaah!

It seems as if you are attempting to pick a fight with me. The only statement I have made was in response to someone stating that the residents of the city of Detroit have more of the burden with regards to cost. Please feel free to scroll up and look at my posts. Nowhere have I complained about the rates.

Typically that "invisible hand" only comes into play in a non-monopolistic market. The market for water in this case is very much a monopoly [[but a regulated one, so that "hand" is being controlled like a puppet). I am aware of market economics, considering that is the focus of my MBA.

Also, following your logic, I assume my .5% income tax I pay to the city is due to them creating and maintaing all the infrastructure which allows me to get to work from my home in the 'burbs?

[Detroitnerd]

It seems as if you are attempting to pick a fight with me. The only statement I have made was in response to someone stating that the residents of the city of Detroit have more of the burden with regards to cost. Please feel free to scroll up and look at my posts. Nowhere have I complained about the rates.

guito, if you're at all familiar with these debates, I am the person who steps in from time to time to chide suburbanites who want to wrest control of the water system from Detroit. The "WAAAAH" and "crying child" are a part of a satirical take on it. Don't like it? Ignore it. But don't chide me for not providing facts and figures. We all know that this is an emotional argument, and facts and figures would confuse the petulant child that wants WHAT IT WANTS NOW! WAAAAH!

Typically that "invisible hand" only comes into play in a non-monopolistic market. The market for water in this case is very much a monopoly [[but a regulated one, so that "hand" is being controlled like a puppet). I am aware of market economics, considering that is the focus of my MBA.

There's no monopoly. Any community is free to buy its water from any community that can spare capacity.They can buy from Wyandotte. Or from Highland Park. Or from Davison. Or, better yet, why don't they build their own water systems? Then they can sell to other communities. All Detroit has done is sell water, like any good utility.

Also, following your logic, I assume my .5% income tax I pay to the city is due to them creating and maintaining all the infrastructure which allows me to get to work from my home in the 'burbs?

Well, since we're talking free market economics, nobody is forcing you to work in the city. Why don't you work in a city that doesn't assess an income tax? Or are you one of those petulant people that cry over any amount of money?

You know, like this:

WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

[guito13]

guito, if you're at all familiar with these debates, I am the person who steps in from time to time to chide suburbanites who want to wrest control of the water system from Detroit. The "WAAAAH" and "crying child" are a part of a satirical take on it. Don't like it? Ignore it. But don't chide me for not providing facts and figures. We all know that this is an emotional argument, and facts and figures would confuse the petulant child that wants WHAT IT WANTS NOW! WAAAAH!

Again, I have never stated what my opinion is on the situation. You are making assumptions which is unfortunate as it takes away from your creditability. Also, emotions are good but when attempting to make proper business decisions you must take emotions out of the equation. Don't chide you but you openly admit to chiding others. Learn to take what you dish out sir.

There's no monopoly. Any community is free to buy its water from any community that can spare capacity.They can buy from Wyandotte. Or from Highland Park. Or from Davison. Or, better yet, why don't they build their own water systems? Then they can sell to other communities. All Detroit has done is sell water, like any good utility.

If you look up the definition of a monopoly, one type is due to capital requirements. Specifically, " Production processes that require large investments of capital, or large research and development costs or substantial sunk costs limit the number of firms in an industry. Large fixed costs also make it difficult for a small firm to enter an industry and expand." The capital requirements [[costs/legal hurdles/etc) to get a water system up and running are staggering.

Well, since we're talking free market economics, nobody is forcing you to work in the city. Why don't you work in a city that doesn't assess an income tax? Or are you one of those petulant people that cry over any amount of money?

You know, like this:

WAAAAH! WAAAAH! WAAAAH!

I am not crying, simply trying to make a point. My employeer compensates me enough to where the tax is not a burden to my ability to live my life. You seem to keep stating that people like me are annoying, but in reality without us Detroit wouldn't receive quite a bit of revenue, and without Detroit the suburbs would be in a world of pain as well. Perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and see if your words, which indeed give a sense of us v. them, are productive or harmful.

[Detroitnerd]

Again, I have never stated what my opinion is on the situation. You are making assumptions which is unfortunate as it takes away from your creditability. Also, emotions are good but when attempting to make proper business decisions you must take emotions out of the equation. Don't chide you but you openly admit to chiding others. Learn to take what you dish out sir.

Oh, I do. I'm not particularly brittle. Or hypocritical. But for cryin' out loud, stop calling me "sir."

If you look up the definition of a monopoly, one type is due to capital requirements. Specifically, " Production processes that require large investments of capital, or large research and development costs or substantial sunk costs limit the number of firms in an industry. Large fixed costs also make it difficult for a small firm to enter an industry and expand." The capital requirements [[costs/legal hurdles/etc) to get a water system up and running are staggering.

Sounds like a bunch of slick talk to me. I do wonder, though: By that definition, are Comcast and DTE monopolies?

I am not crying, simply trying to make a point. My employer compensates me enough to where the tax is not a burden to my ability to live my life. You seem to keep stating that people like me are annoying, but in reality without us Detroit would receive quite a bit of revenue, and without Detroit the suburbs would be in a world of pain as well. Perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and see if your words, which indeed give a sense of us v. them, are productive or harmful.

Sometimes it is us vs. them, guito, and sometimes it's just divisive rhetoric. Detroit's income tax was a last-ditch effort by a white mayor to harness revenues that were leaving for the suburbs. If Detroit had been able to annex cities and grow, as other cities have, then it would have, probably wouldn't have needed the income tax, and probably wouldn't be having this argument over the water system now.

Water systems everywhere are raising rates, as consumption drops, fixed costs remain stable and as the exurbs start their inevitable crash. This whole uproar about Detroit's water system is an effort to take it away from the city so it can subsidize suburban users at the expense of city residents. And, so, when the residents of Detroit's affluent suburbs and exurbs start complaining about the cost of water, I find it amusing, hence these posts of the crying child. You seriously think I'm driving a wedge between the city and the suburbs with satirical humor? OK, fine, believe whatever you want. I think it's ridiculous when a bunch of suburban lawmakers want to take over a system that Detroit itself has gone heavily into debt to maintain -- and this theft is promoted under the banner of "regionalism." That's a laugh. And expect me to keep heaping invective upon this ludicrous idea. If that makes you feel disrespected, maybe you need to look in a mirror and figure out just where you stand.

[guito13]

Oh, I do. I'm not particularly brittle. Or hypocritical. But for cryin' out loud, stop calling me "sir."

Your last post made you sound otherwise.

Sounds like a bunch of slick talk to me. I do wonder, though: By that definition, are Comcast and DTE monopolies?

It is right from a textbook. To some extent yes they are monopolies. As an example, where I live, Comcast is the only provider with infrastructure in the ground so we have no choice but to use them or go without, other areas have choice [[WOW, Dish, ATT, etc.)

Sometimes it is us vs. them, guito, and sometimes it's just divisive rhetoric. Detroit's income tax was a last-ditch effort by a white mayor to harness revenues that were leaving for the suburbs. If Detroit had been able to annex cities and grow, as other cities have, then it would have, probably wouldn't have needed the income tax, and probably wouldn't be having this argument over the water system now.

Water systems everywhere are raising rates, as consumption drops, fixed costs remain stable and as the exurbs start their inevitable crash. This whole uproar about Detroit's water system is an effort to take it away from the city so it can subsidize suburban users at the expense of city residents. And, so, when the residents of Detroit's affluent suburbs and exurbs start complaining about the cost of water, I find it amusing, hence these posts of the crying child. You seriously think I'm driving a wedge between the city and the suburbs with satirical humor? OK, fine, believe whatever you want. I think it's ridiculous when a bunch of suburban lawmakers want to take over a system that Detroit itself has gone heavily into debt to maintain -- and this theft is promoted under the banner of "regionalism." That's a laugh. And expect me to keep heaping invective upon this ludicrous idea. If that makes you feel disrespected, maybe you need to look in a mirror and figure out just where you stand.

[/QUOTE]

Couple things:

1) Much better post here, almost constructive. If you are trying to make your point to people like me this is how to do it. If you added proof that the situation is as you described it would do even better.

2) Just because the "politicans" are evil to you, I think you would be suprised if you spoke with the average suburbanite.

3) I am just trying to help you out here. This is how I have perceived your posts so far so either im way off base or others feel this way too.

[Detroitnerd]

It is right from a textbook. To some extent yes they are monopolies. As an example, where I live, Comcast is the only provider with infrastructure in the ground so we have no choice but to use them or go without, other areas have choice [[WOW, Dish, ATT, etc.)

Well, I guess my response is -- at least to people who are trying to prize the water department away from Detroit -- tough titty. It is a much more expensive proposition to live out in the middle of nowhere, less densely. We are talking about market forces here, not some big, bad monopoly that is charging whatever the market will bear. Honestly, when people in exurbia are choosing between paying their association fees or their mortgage, the issue of a 20 or 30 percent hike in water rates shouldn't dominate the debate as much as it has. The debate should actually be, what the hell are we going to do with all these exurban environments in 20 years? We already have an oversupply of that kind of dwelling, nobody is building more, ghost subs are sitting half-empty, and there simply will not be the demand for that kind of neighborhood, filled with fuel-hogging atriums and water-hogging lawns and miles away from the nearest school or market. Game over, man. Rigor mortis is setting in in a lot of these places. I think this is why the suburban politicians want to grab the water system now, to use it to pump water cheaply to sprawlsville and make city residents foot the bill. I notice that the suburban leaders are not arguing that Detroit water is a monopoly, though. Maybe that is because they are happy with it being a monopoly. They just want it to be THEIR monopoly.

Much better post here, almost constructive. If you are trying to make your point to people like me this is how to do it. If you added proof that the situation is as you described it would do even better.

Oh how patronizing. Go eat a bag of dicks for that comment.

Just because the "politicans" are evil to you, I think you would be suprised if you spoke with the average suburbanite.

A lot of my friends are average suburbanites. And, unsurprisingly, they can see through demagogues like Fouts and Patterson.

I am just trying to help you out here. This is how I have perceived your posts so far so either im way off base or others feel this way too.

I don't really give a shit what other people think of me. I have a few friends on DetroitYES! and a few people who can suck it. Anyway, I came here to debate, argue, teach a few things and learn some others, not nec. to make friends...

[MikeM]

What a petulant little bitch you are. Too bad city council went along with the deal.

http://detnews.com/article/20110216/...339/1408/local

[Detroitnerd]

What a petulant little bitch you are. Too bad city council went along with the deal.

Just being my lovable little self, MikeM.

[guito13]

Nerd,

Just trying to learn, help, and provide my opinion/insight as well, not make friends. I will attempt to weed through your "humor" posts in order to find useful informtation moving forward. I am in Wayne county FYI, so Fouts and Patterson are not on my radar. I plan on retiring on my 80 acres in the middle of the UP, we have hand pump wells there so this will not be of any concern to me in the near future!

[Detroitnerd]

Nerd,

Just trying to learn, help, and provide my opinion/insight as well, not make friends. I will attempt to weed through your "humor" posts in order to find useful informtation moving forward. I am in Wayne county FYI, so Fouts and Patterson are not on my radar. I plan on retiring on my 80 acres in the middle of the UP, we have hand pump wells there so this will not be of any concern to me in the near future!

Thanks, guito. My bombastic style is intended mostly for humor. And if I offend anybody, I usually hope to offend the right people, and only then on narrow issues. Sorry I told you to eat a bag of dicks.

[guito13]

Thanks, guito. My bombastic style is intended mostly for humor. And if I offend anybody, I usually hope to offend the right people, and only then on narrow issues. Sorry I told you to eat a bag of dicks.

No worries, I have been told to eat worse. I will have a beer or 7 on my little trip up north this weekend instead, one will be in honor of you.

[Detroitnerd]

No worries, I have been told to eat worse. I will have a beer or 7 on my little trip up north this weekend instead, one will be in honor of you.

Make it an I.P.A. if you can.

[guito13]

Make it an I.P.A. if you can.

Well, its a guys weekend and we are getting a keg of bud light [[we are cheap) but at least we have one thing in common, as I love me a nice IPA as well. Try the Bell's hopslam when it comes out, pricy but worth it.

[Detroitnerd]

Water divides us.

Beer brings us together.

[mam2009]

Water rate for detroit residents:
http://www.dwsd.org/cust/detroit_water_rates.pdf

Rate for suburbs:
http://www.dwsd.org/cust/water_rates...l_sub_cust.pdf

You sited suburban RETAIL rates. Suburban households are billed WHOLESALE by DWSD.

[guito13]

You sited suburban RETAIL rates. Suburban households are billed WHOLESALE by DWSD.

Aye, I wanted to compare apples to apples. There is not enough data supplied in order to determine the averge wholesale rate to the suburbs. I would assume a rough estimate could be done by weighting the # of households in each city by their rate and then averaging them out but I dont have the time for that right now!

[MikeM]

Water system settlement right for Detroit

http://www.freep.com/article/2011022...sey=nav%7Chead

[MikeM]

Detroit council bumps salary range to $250k for top water department job

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...department-job

[sirrealone]

Detroit council bumps salary range to $250k for top water department job

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...department-job

Now I can submit my application!

[Fnemecek]

Detroit council bumps salary range to $250k for top water department job.

Well, you can't expect one of L. Brooks Patterson's people to work for less than that, can you?