Detnews: BCBS Moving 3,000 Downtown from Southfield

[casscorridor]

Anyone wanna take bets on what corporation moves from the burbs to Downtown next?

[bailey]

So What? Is Greektown and the east-side of Downtown not part of the central business district? You act like its the burbs or some sh!t. Just because it's a parking lot now doesn't mean that its not a possible redevelopment site 2,3,5 or 10 years down the road. You gotta get the ball rolling sometime right? People need to stop being so damn cynical. It really is the worst trait of Metro Detroiters.

Yes these workers are filling the void that was left in 2005-2008 but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing. Whats the alternative? Not having the RenCen solvent and have it go abandoned? Now that would really be good for downtown.

I'm not being cynical, I'm just curious how much of the work day you think they are going to be strolling around downtown.

Further, the rencen with it's captive audience of GM, EDS, Big law firms and the like can't manage to fill the retail that's already right there in the building.

People in both BCBS and RenCen drive right off the expressway and into a parking deck. They do the reverse when they go home. It's nice there are 3000 more people working downtown, that's more people to hit with city income tax, but if they behave like the thousands already there [[between RenCen and BCBS HQ) there isn't much reason to feel like anything will change.

[iheartthed]

My response was relevant to the barely-veiled glee that ensued because workers were moved from one area of this area to another area of this area. This is the same bullshit that is seen with opinions regarding crime. That was my shit and I took it.

"you don't like the idea of jobs shifting from the suburbs to Detroit. That is the only reason that you bothered to respond." Sorry, this couldn't be more wrong, for any number of reasons. Again, the barely-veiled nah nah nah nah nah that comes from news like this I find ironic...and, if you are implying race, well, I won't get started with the irony of that.

I responded because the topic is interesting, I obviously have an opinion regarding recent thumb-nosing, I am bored at work, like to multi-"task," spend way too much time on these boards, could be more productive if I give them a rest, should probably get a new hobby, and firmly believe in the stated purpose of the board regarding discussion of the "fabulous Detroit-Windsor Metropolis."

So...if you still think my comment implied a "false option" of a choice between creating jobs and moving to Detroit, and that's what you are going to stick with, then to each his/her own. Whatever feeds the agenda.

Uh... Nobody is implying anything other than that you don't like the idea of jobs located in the suburbs being shifted to Detroit.

This is your exact quote:

I'd rather see 3,000 new jobs created in the area than the emptying out of one building to pour into another, regardless of where the jobs are or where they are going.

So imagine you are a scale and in one hand you have option A "create 3,000 new jobs" and the other you have option B "empty one building to pour into another". By your own words option A is weighted heavier than option B; it is the preferred option. Except, in reality option A isn't an option. Nor was it ever an option until you brought it up. Nobody in this thread up until your response said anything about a choice between creating 3,000 new jobs versus shifting local workers between locations. So you introduced this false option that was totally irrelevant to the conversation at the point in which you entered it.

[spiritofdetroit]

I personally know plenty of folks who work in the RenCen who do go out to eat downtown, or at least dine at one of the Ren Cen's options. Have you seen the Riverwalk during lunch hours? You'll notice a ton of people in their business clothes from the RenCen enjoying the Riverwalk with a meal. Perhaps as more ppl come back to the RenCen - and this deal essentially fills the office portion of the complex, the RenCen will fill its commercial portion and perhaps more riverfront development - like filling in the space at the "Asian Village" will occur.

My office downtown has a lot of workers who have to go between the RenCen and our office on a daily basis, so to say that no one from the RenCen goes out to support food or retail places downtown is absurd. One reason people might not leave is because the RenCen has a ton of dining options itself - not because they hate Detroit, or because theire scared of walking downtown - but because their building offers these amenities on sight.

[bartock]

Uh... Nobody is implying anything other than that you don't like the idea of jobs located in the suburbs being shifted to Detroit.

This is your exact quote:



So imagine you are a scale and in one hand you have option A "create 3,000 new jobs" and the other you have option B "empty one building to pour into another". By your own words option A is weighted heavier than option B; it is the preferred option. Except, in reality option A isn't an option. Nor was it ever an option until you brought it up. Nobody in this thread up until your response said anything about a choice between creating 3,000 new jobs versus shifting local workers between locations. So you introduced this false option that was totally irrelevant to the conversation at the point in which you entered it.

You are really reaching. I didn't mention choice or choosing. You are ignoring the context in which I mentioned rather seeing 3,000 new jobs created in the area than the emptying out of one building to pour into another - the last part - "regardless of where the jobs are or where they are going" - was not the creation of an option or a per se introduction of a new discussion, but rather a comment on the tone of a statement like "at least it is not in Southfield!!" It also sort of goes in opposite of your admitted implication, by the way.

I mean, I post plenty and there a bunch of things I could probably be rightfully challenged on, but you are questining my intention and my intended point, ignoring all context and suggesting my statement was more or less a proposal out of thin air or introduction of a new topic. At best you misunderstood my point or, perhaps my point wasn't conveyed in a way that you could understand. Either way, you are apparently unsatisfied with my explanation of my intention, so you deemed it irrelevant to you...as irrelevant to you as your "Option A" "Option B" attempt at analogy is to me, probably.

[Focus313]

I'm not being cynical, I'm just curious how much of the work day you think they are going to be strolling around downtown.

Further, the rencen with it's captive audience of GM, EDS, Big law firms and the like can't manage to fill the retail that's already right there in the building.

People in both BCBS and RenCen drive right off the expressway and into a parking deck. They do the reverse when they go home. It's nice there are 3000 more people working downtown, that's more people to hit with city income tax, but if they behave like the thousands already there [[between RenCen and BCBS HQ) there isn't much reason to feel like anything will change.

Your right, your not cynical your delusional. I worked for 3 1/2 years at Comerica Tower [[2 blks) from the RenCen and we ate at a different restaurants every single day, I also grabbed breakfast from numerous places on my way from the parking garage to the office and on breaks I would always go for walks through downtown, the riverfront, and Hart Plaza.

Once my company moved to Dearborn all we had was Fairlame Food court and I noticed how everyone I worked with [[including myself) got fat after a year and everyone complained about the move say they all wished we had stayed downtown.

[iheartthed]

You are really reaching. I didn't mention choice or choosing. You are ignoring the context in which I mentioned rather seeing 3,000 new jobs created in the area than the emptying out of one building to pour into another - the last part - "regardless of where the jobs are or where they are going" - was not the creation of an option or a per se introduction of a new discussion, but rather a comment on the tone of a statement like "at least it is not in Southfield!!" It also sort of goes in opposite of your admitted implication, by the way.

I mean, I post plenty and there a bunch of things I could probably be rightfully challenged on, but you are questining my intention and my intended point, ignoring all context and suggesting my statement was more or less a proposal out of thin air or introduction of a new topic. At best you misunderstood my point or, perhaps my point wasn't conveyed in a way that you could understand. Either way, you are apparently unsatisfied with my explanation of my intention, so you deemed it irrelevant to you...as irrelevant to you as your "Option A" "Option B" attempt at analogy is to me, probably.

I'm not ignoring the context of your response. I am critiquing the way in which you responded to what you quoted.

[bailey]

Your right, your not cynical your delusional. I worked for 3 1/2 years at Comerica Tower [[2 blks) from the RenCen and we ate at a different restaurants every single day, I also grabbed breakfast from numerous places on my way from the parking garage to the office and on breaks I would always go for walks through downtown, the riverfront, and Hart Plaza.

Once my company moved to Dearborn all we had was Fairlame Food court and I noticed how everyone I worked with [[including myself) got fat after a year and everyone complained about the move say they all wished we had stayed downtown.

I'm just imagining the empty Shops at RenCen then? the statement was about retail not lunch options.

Apparently I needed your job though. When I worked downtown, i ate lunch at my desk and rarely had time to go for leisurely strolls around town during the work day.

[MotownSpartan]

People in both BCBS and RenCen drive right off the expressway and into a parking deck. They do the reverse when they go home.

Sad to say but this is dead on. The RenCen is a lot more open than it used to be but this is exactly how it operates. In other buildings downtown somtimes people have to at least walk a block down a public street to get to the garage but many of the RenCen garages are attached to the building through tunnels or walkways. It takes a lot more initiative and time than you would think to leave the RenCen complex to go somewhere else downtown and then come back again. I know many people who work in the RenCen and still use their cars to go almost anywhere except directly across Jefferson downtown.

[Focus313]

I'm just imagining the empty Shops at RenCen then? the statement was about retail not lunch options.

Apparently I needed your job though. When I worked downtown, i ate lunch at my desk and rarely had time to go for leisurely strolls around town during the work day.

Yeah, well I hated it so much I left that position and decided to freelance so I could work both on & in Detroit where I also live. I love being downtown. The more people are exposed to the good things that are available down here the more they venture out of their comfort zone.


btw...restaurants are a form of retail shopping. It's called "retail food service".

[DetroitDad]

Sad to say but this is dead on. The RenCen is a lot more open than it used to be but this is exactly how it operates. In other buildings downtown somtimes people have to at least walk a block down a public street to get to the garage but many of the RenCen garages are attached to the building through tunnels or walkways. It takes a lot more initiative and time than you would think to leave the RenCen complex to go somewhere else downtown and then come back again. I know many people who work in the RenCen and still use their cars to go almost anywhere except directly across Jefferson downtown.

But I think they are more likely to attend festivals and events that they see being set up in Hart Plaza or on the Riverwalk. Likewise, it could mean more corporate visitors to the hotel.

I'd guess that some employees may actually choose to live or move Downtown.

[canuck]

Great news all around since this will have an influence on other corporate structures to effect this kind of move to the downtown. The Blue Cross and Quicken moves have started a trend. Quicken is poised to benefit like no other from the rebirth of Detroit. Small business will gather some strength from this. It must be a hard sell for small business owners to borrow when you compound the economy and the lack of density in downtown corporate offices. Your downtown is in better shape than a lot of other cities. Detroit needs to get a lot of viewpoints from leading urban planners in a worldwide effort to make it into something different from what it is, but also from other cities in a lot of ways. Shouldnt this be a part of the new agenda? I mean if a completely new transit system needs to be implemented, shouldnt the city shoot for the stars and call for new kinds of infrastructure? Likewise with highways, Detroit is the automotive locomotive, it can reinvent the wheel again.

[detmsp]

I'm finding it hard to get excited about this... the reason they're moving downtown is that they want to decrease their footprint since they've been laying people off. Hardly a win for the region as a whole.

[mwilbert]

For purposes of argument, assume the following:

1) Nothing is ever going to make Southfield into a viable urban center.
2) Downtown could be a viable urban center if there were more people in it.
3) A viable downtown Detroit would make the region more attractive.

Then moving as many people from Southfield to downtown as possible is a win for the region, because the value of each person to the region increases when they move.

Now it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with assumptions 1 and 2 [[3 seems obvious), but this combination may explain why some people [[like me) think it is good for the region to have businesses moving downtown, while to others it looks like shuffling deck chairs on an unfortunate ocean liner.

[bartock]

For purposes of argument, assume the following:

1) Nothing is ever going to make Southfield into a viable urban center.
2) Downtown could be a viable urban center if there were more people in it.
3) A viable downtown Detroit would make the region more attractive.

Then moving as many people from Southfield to downtown as possible is a win for the region, because the value of each person to the region increases when they move.

Now it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with assumptions 1 and 2 [[3 seems obvious), but this combination may explain why some people [[like me) think it is good for the region to have businesses moving downtown, while to others it looks like shuffling deck chairs on an unfortunate ocean liner.

I 100 percent agree with all three of your numbered points, and believe for those well put reasons that this might ultimately be a net benefit for the area, I just do not agree with those who would seem to suggest a personal, collateral satisfaction over the fact of regional displacement from one local area to another. Big difference between the two.

[BrushStart]

For purposes of argument, assume the following:

1) Nothing is ever going to make Southfield into a viable urban center.
2) Downtown could be a viable urban center if there were more people in it.
3) A viable downtown Detroit would make the region more attractive.

Then moving as many people from Southfield to downtown as possible is a win for the region, because the value of each person to the region increases when they move.

Now it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with assumptions 1 and 2 [[3 seems obvious), but this combination may explain why some people [[like me) think it is good for the region to have businesses moving downtown, while to others it looks like shuffling deck chairs on an unfortunate ocean liner.

Well said. I have nothing against Southfield, but that ridiculous "Town Center," was a real catalyst for the steady decline of Detroit's CBD. Honestly, what a slap in the face to build a series of generic office towers with the sole goal of poaching away Detroit's corporate residents. I am a supporter of the whole Metro region, but Southfield really went too far. It's one thing to overbuild suburban housing, but it's a whole different thing to build giant office towers when there are vacant skyscrapers in Detroit.

Because of irresponsible developments like Town Center, a lot of people are going to get hurt as our region begins the arduous task of putting the toothpaste back in the tube, that is, the businesses back in the fricken business district.

[English]

Well said. I have nothing against Southfield, but that ridiculous "Town Center," was a real catalyst for the steady decline of Detroit's CBD. Honestly, what a slap in the face to build a series of generic office towers with the sole goal of poaching away Detroit's corporate residents. I am a supporter of the whole Metro region, but Southfield really went too far. It's one thing to overbuild suburban housing, but it's a whole different thing to build giant office towers when there are vacant skyscrapers in Detroit.

Because of irresponsible developments like Town Center, a lot of people are going to get hurt as our region begins the arduous task of putting the toothpaste back in the tube, that is, the businesses back in the fricken business district.

You are my new favorite person, BrushStart. "Put those toys back in the toy box! NOW!!!"

[Ravine]

Competition is part of how a free market-place works. Southfield didn't ride in and "poach" a whole herd of livestock while the rancher was laid up with chicken-pox.
Shirking responsibility and assigning false blame are a couple of the prime ingredients in the stew that choked Detroit, along with the strong tendency to continuously put little devil-faces over the heads of anybody who doesn't bend over backwards to make our life easier.
And making the suburbs out to be incarnations of some kind of Great Satan is one of the more simple-minded habits frequently practiced here on DY.

[Wintersmommy]

I personally know plenty of folks who work in the RenCen who do go out to eat downtown, or at least dine at one of the Ren Cen's options. Have you seen the Riverwalk during lunch hours? You'll notice a ton of people in their business clothes from the RenCen enjoying the Riverwalk with a meal. Perhaps as more ppl come back to the RenCen - and this deal essentially fills the office portion of the complex, the RenCen will fill its commercial portion and perhaps more riverfront development - like filling in the space at the "Asian Village" will occur.

My office downtown has a lot of workers who have to go between the RenCen and our office on a daily basis, so to say that no one from the RenCen goes out to support food or retail places downtown is absurd. One reason people might not leave is because the RenCen has a ton of dining options itself - not because they hate Detroit, or because theire scared of walking downtown - but because their building offers these amenities on sight.

I agree...I eat out almost every day and so do about 30 of the 70 workers in my office. Its like some sort of cometition to see who can find the best lunch spot or new lunch spot. In addition We have a group of people who walk everyday during lunch hour which is something they never did when we were in Southfield [[or if they did walk they just walked laps around the building). We have groups of younger guys going out for happy hour once a week and older guys having freinds and family meeting them downtown for dinner. For us working in the RenCen is awesome because we can enjoy downtown by leaving our cars in the parking garage and either walking or taking the people mover around town.

[iheartthed]

Competition is part of how a free market-place works. Southfield didn't ride in and "poach" a whole herd of livestock while the rancher was laid up with chicken-pox.
Shirking responsibility and assigning false blame are a couple of the prime ingredients in the stew that choked Detroit, along with the strong tendency to continuously put little devil-faces over the heads of anybody who doesn't bend over backwards to make our life easier.
And making the suburbs out to be incarnations of some kind of Great Satan is one of the more simple-minded habits frequently practiced here on DY.

Okay which is it? Does the Detroit area want a region that can compete for jobs and investment with other regions in the country and around the globe? Or is the Detroit area trying to establish a collection of communities that compete against each other for every little scrap that gets tossed towards southeast Michigan?

[Huggybear]

You're right; Southfield "competed" [[and I'll note that where the word "competition" comes up in a choice between greenfield development and an established municipality there is always at the bottom a subsidy). Subsidized markets are not free ones. There are certainly simple-minded people on DY, but you could also argue that it is simple-minded to assume that everything is the product of a free market.

Southfield was heavily subsidized by Detroit [[and Michigan) taxpayers in the construction of the Southfield Freeway and the expansion of Northwestern Highway into the Lodge - two freeways whose limited access termini lay [[and lie) within Southfield. With

• transportation taken care of [[note how all of Southfield's major commercial development is along these two corridors),
• no legacy costs, and, therefore
• the ability to charge no income tax and to undercut on property taxes [[after all, these nice developers are building all the PUDs and roads for us),

Southfield proceeded to put huge amounts of office space onto the market [[by the early 1980s, more office space than Detroit's CBD in toto), at a time everyone with money wanted to build cities without black people [[and judging by the "urbanization" of Birmingham's architecture and projects like Bloomfield Park, it looks like some people still do).

Detroit did its part to do nothing to retain residents and businesses, but by the same token, I'm curious to hear from you what it would have done - other than tear down half the city to build neighborhoods with culs-de-sac, make the police department more repressive and run massive deficits by eliminating taxes. Established communities always have this form of "chicken pox" [[as you would put it), and the race to the bottom always exploits it - at least temporarily.

Ask Southfield what it did to retain its businesses when they fled for Troy. The reality here - borne out by the sorry financial state of the inner-ring suburbs, with Highland Park being the worst - is that attracting greenfield development by undercutting on taxes and letting developers run wild is a short-term strategy that is a loser in the long run. When all of those crappy asphalt roads and sewers you let developers lay start decaying, you're stuck with the expenses - and when you try to raise taxes to cover them, your residents and businesses flee. Southeast Michigan is a testament to this great legacy of the Home Rule Cities Act.

And just as the laws of thermodynamics state that heat in one area will disperse to others until they equalize, the race to the bottom spreads capital until everything in the area is lukewarm.

Competition is part of how a free market-place works. Southfield didn't ride in and "poach" a whole herd of livestock while the rancher was laid up with chicken-pox.
Shirking responsibility and assigning false blame are a couple of the prime ingredients in the stew that choked Detroit, along with the strong tendency to continuously put little devil-faces over the heads of anybody who doesn't bend over backwards to make our life easier.
And making the suburbs out to be incarnations of some kind of Great Satan is one of the more simple-minded habits frequently practiced here on DY.

[Ravine]

Okay which is it? Does the Detroit area want a region that can compete for jobs and investment with other regions in the country and around the globe? Or is the Detroit area trying to establish a collection of communities that compete against each other for every little scrap that gets tossed towards southeast Michigan?

I don't think my quoted post really should be paired up with that question.
As to the question itself, I think you are shaping an "either/or" proposition out of a pair of questions which I don't see that way. I think your first question is one which [[after, I would think we would agree, receiving a "yes" answer) would precede your second question.
And sure, yes, I don't see any reason why the SE Mich. communities shouldn't compete for those bits & pieces. The fact that Detroit is having a hard time doesn't dictate that we are automatically entitled to the only-- or even the first-- swing at every pitch, does it?

[iheartthed]

I don't think my quoted post really should be paired up with that question.
As to the question itself, I think you are shaping an "either/or" proposition out of a pair of questions which I don't see that way. I think your first question is one which [[after, I would think we would agree, receiving a "yes" answer) would precede your second question.
And sure, yes, I don't see any reason why the SE Mich. communities shouldn't compete for those bits & pieces. The fact that Detroit is having a hard time doesn't dictate that we are automatically entitled to the only-- or even the first-- swing at every pitch, does it?

Which boils down to whether the Detroit area can even be competitive on a national or international level with its core in tatters?

[Ravine]

Huggybear wrote:
"Southfield was heavily subsidized by Detroit [[and Michigan) taxpayers in the construction of the Southfield Freeway and the expansion of Northwestern Highway into the Lodge - two freeways whose limited access termini lay [[and lie) within Southfield."

Huggybear, the point you are making-- and, after introducing it with the segment I quoted, above, you did a fine job of explaining it, I will add-- is a sound one. In other words, Well hey, ya gotta point, there. Comments such as yours are that which make for an intelligent debate, and I thank you for taking the time to log it.

My original response was motivated by my noting of the word "poaching," causing me to wonder: Wait, how is that "poaching?"

So, while I cannot say that I now agree with BrushStart's post, you have presented an argument by which I can see where the word "poaching" may be somewhat appropriate.

Tres bien.
Gosh, Toto, I don't think we're in DetroitYes! anymore...

[R8RBOB]

You're right; Southfield "competed" [[and I'll note that where the word "competition" comes up in a choice between greenfield development and an established municipality there is always at the bottom a subsidy). Subsidized markets are not free ones. There are certainly simple-minded people on DY, but you could also argue that it is simple-minded to assume that everything is the product of a free market.

Southfield was heavily subsidized by Detroit [[and Michigan) taxpayers in the construction of the Southfield Freeway and the expansion of Northwestern Highway into the Lodge - two freeways whose limited access termini lay [[and lie) within Southfield. With

• transportation taken care of [[note how all of Southfield's major commercial development is along these two corridors),
• no legacy costs, and, therefore
• the ability to charge no income tax and to undercut on property taxes [[after all, these nice developers are building all the PUDs and roads for us),

Southfield proceeded to put huge amounts of office space onto the market [[by the early 1980s, more office space than Detroit's CBD in toto), at a time everyone with money wanted to build cities without black people [[and judging by the "urbanization" of Birmingham's architecture and projects like Bloomfield Park, it looks like some people still do).

Detroit did its part to do nothing to retain residents and businesses, but by the same token, I'm curious to hear from you what it would have done - other than tear down half the city to build neighborhoods with culs-de-sac, make the police department more repressive and run massive deficits by eliminating taxes. Established communities always have this form of "chicken pox" [[as you would put it), and the race to the bottom always exploits it - at least temporarily.

Ask Southfield what it did to retain its businesses when they fled for Troy. The reality here - borne out by the sorry financial state of the inner-ring suburbs, with Highland Park being the worst - is that attracting greenfield development by undercutting on taxes and letting developers run wild is a short-term strategy that is a loser in the long run. When all of those crappy asphalt roads and sewers you let developers lay start decaying, you're stuck with the expenses - and when you try to raise taxes to cover them, your residents and businesses flee. Southeast Michigan is a testament to this great legacy of the Home Rule Cities Act.

And just as the laws of thermodynamics state that heat in one area will disperse to others until they equalize, the race to the bottom spreads capital until everything in the area is lukewarm.

This was a helluva of a post but it speaks the truth in why the suburbs are tapped out. The suburbs offered vast acres of lands and no taxes. Eventually, the question comes up on how do the suburban cities offset the money they are not getting from these businesses that setup shop in their communities? How do you pay for police, fire, the library? In regards, to the questions of the schools, Suburban communities decided that they would let Detroit kids fill seats in their schools to get the state money that would go to Detroit, however, due to the bad reputation that DPS has they can't recruit suburban kids to attend their schools to offset the losses that they are occurring.