The Pope FINALLY Admits Church's Culpability in Sex Scandal

**Gannon** · May-17-10, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

Gannon: Submitting to the leading of the Spirit is never an easy thing...our ego gets in the way. Once one learns how to be open to this leading, teaching, and fulfilling...it becomes easier and easier as one learns to 'die to self' or kill off their divisive egos.

maxx: How do you know that this "spirit" isn't just you talking to yourself?
Have you heard of Mike Persinger and his god helmet?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...nbrainqa.shtml

How much time have you got, and if I make it plain and clear would it make ANY difference to your life choices and actions from now on?!

Suffice to say that there have been many instances when 'notions' have occurred to me that I would NEVER have imagined, and the results have been more than spectacularly good.

Let me tell you about bumping into Danny Guilbeau again. This will get long, and I don't expect you to grasp it...and you will make excuses until the cows come home as to how it was all co-incidence.

I had a friend back during my UofM-Dearborn days, we were all involved with the campus radio station. He had just gotten out of rehab for alcohol troubles, and had a birthday party without any drinking. I met Danny there, who was a troubled youth from Brightmoor...and for some reason I felt obliged to show him that he could live and have a fun life without the gang activity and heavy destructive partying that led him to incarceration and the same rehab house my old friend had just been through.

So, I took him as an unofficial little brother, going to movies and other suburban stuff and just having innocent fun. This went on for a few months, but then abruptly stopped. I couldn't even remember why.

Many months later, after I had gone through what the world would call a born-again experience, I was driving down the Southfield Expressway when I got this distinct notion or inner urge to exit and seek out this young fellow again. I begged off, saying I had some banking to do at my credit union, and if I had time...I'd catch him on the way back.

Well, on the way back...that feeling was SO strong, I could not ignore it. It was baffling to me, I certainly did not WANT to go miles out of my way for a blind hunt...I was nearly sure I wouldn't recognize his mother's house anyways, and Brightmoor before the time of the first Gulf War was not an easy place to cruise and look around.

But I went...driving down the street that I remembered because of the old Dairy Queen on the corner. I couldn't remember which was his mother's house, but saw his grandmother's because of the physics-defying single-post handrail on her front porch. I parked and went to the door...knocked and the dog went wild.

No answer! I ran back to my car, relieved that I had followed this odd leading...yet I was nagged by my conscience. I had come this far, and knew somehow that I was supposed to contact him...so I wrote out a note and left it in the mailbox.

The next morning, I was late...as usual...to get to my job at the Gramophone, but the phone rang just as I was rushing out the door. It was Danny. He proceeded to ask me twenty questions.

Was I the same John Gannon who had taken him to the mall and hung out and talked about deep subjects...and so on. He clearly didn't think it was me.

After watching the clock spin, and imagining my manager's thrashings about with another tardiness...I said, "It's ME, Danny! Why are you so doubtful?"

I will never forget his answer.

"Because someone with your name left a note at my grandma's house. She just called me, right when I had my shotgun in my mouth ready to blow my head off...but when she read the note and got to the end, I had to find out if it was really you."

My last line read, "Because I want to know why God has him on my heart so heavily today".

Apparently, and this is the part that amazes ME, he had all but chased me around my father's basement after his 'dawning', and I kicked him out for attempting to force religion on me.

Something had obviously changed in the short time between then and that phone call.

There is more to the story, including restoration beyond belief which can ONLY be called miraculous...but I won't trouble you with that now, this will be enough for your critical mind to reach, let alone grasp.

Sincerely,
John

There is more to life than we know. WAY more than we perceive.

**Sstashmoo** · May-17-10, 09:47 PM

Beautiful story John. Thanks for sharing that, and you're very fortunate to have witnessed such an event.

I've never experienced anything that direct or profound, rather it is an ongoing... almost systematic reveal. If I do A, B happens If I do C, D happens, it's been that logical and binary over the years, and downright predictable. I won't go in to specifics, but I've seen it over and over through my life, there is no question for me there is divine power at work. Zero correlation between A and B and C and D. Totally unrelated, separate circuits so to speak, that work in unison.

**Gannon** · May-17-10, 10:16 PM

Sstash,

Thanks. I truly believe each of us get exactly what we need for our faith...and in the case of Mother Theresa, the Lord knew what she'd need to continue on her path. It didn't happen to be the 'feel good' initial filling of the Holy Spirit...many get caught trying to feel that again when I believe it is not unlike losing one's virginity, once done it will never be that way again...because it is the new norm, doing what one should naturally...as easy as breathing or blinking.

But I do also love when it is more a linear relationship, as you describe, of seemingly co-incidental occurrences. It usually takes three confirmations for me to identify 'em, though...so I often need all four before my attention is grabbed!

The balance of the Danny story is even better...and I've got many stories that are not dissimilar.

I recalled just yesterday speeding across the I-75 bridge on I-94 [[late again for a bible study, so I was actually doing nearly twice the speed limit, excessive daily speeding was something that took a great deal of effort to exorcise from me, apparently), I saw a sedan on the shoulder...right about where the incinerator is.

At that instant, I knew I had to stop and help them...so I crossed the two lanes and stopped on the shoulder in an absolutely insane maneuver. I always pushed my little GTI.

The two older women wouldn't even roll down their windows, they were frightened beyond belief. When I finally got them to talk with me, they all but screamed...why did you DO that?!

"I dunno, felt led to help you...why?"

They were driving home to Royal Oak from a 'convention' down in Monroe...and had run out of gas. Petrified. Years before cell phones, stuck in the middle of scary Detroit.

I didn't know the area at that time, and couldn't see any gas stations...so they asked me if I would drive them to near Twelve Mile and Main.

On the way there, they revealed they were 'plainclothes nuns' and had been at their main convent down in Monroe...driving home when they'd run out of gas. They remembered to pray, and my idiotic driving move happened the instant they asked for help.

If I hadn't said those exact words, they said they wouldn't have trusted me.

I didn't speed on the way with them. Missed my class, probably the first time I learned that studying the book was less important than being willing and able to move when prompted.

I sure would love to meet up with them now, as well as Danny.

If I told all of my stories, though, I'd not do anything else...and would risk inflating my ego. I say these things not to place myself on any pedestal, because I know me from the inside out...and I deserve nothing of the sort, probably more like having the pedestal on me! But I repeat them to bring glory to the One Who Made All Things, with special glee that the Great or Holy Spirit still flows through those who pay attention.

I am coming off of many years of distraction...and would like to become more effective doing good for my neighbors, friends, family, and community at large.

It is easy to be consumed by the stuff that fills our five senses...for me it is not easy being a mystic hedonist. Sometimes sitting on this razor's edge can be a little painful...and it is always precarious.

All I really know is that there is always more 'God' for any who care and dare to pursue it...there is no secret of why we're taught to continue seeking, asking, and knocking. It is never an instant thing...but when the answers come from truly good etherea [[the only way I can truly describe any godlike experience), light and love and peace and joy show up simultaneously.

This much I know...because it has become a common experience in my life. At least is USED to be...and I wouldn't mind being 'used' like that again.

Cheers

**rb336** · May-18-10, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Gannon

Just because others paid for her accommodations and travel, you want to fault her for that and call her a hypocrite?! Wow. You make ME look tame.

the money came from her own organization's funds - funds that seemed to disappear into the coffers of groups like Opus Dei, etc. When the Brits tried to look into those funds, they swiftly closed them in the UK, moving them to the US.

The FRUIT of Mother Theresa's life is abundant, she touched the lives of many and improved their conditions...if only for the meager moment they crossed paths. She should be an inspiration, not a target for your vitriol.

take a good read of ANY of the numerous books devoted to showing what her "ministry" REALLY did. there were no "fruits" no pepole whose lives were improved by her presence. there are several well-documented instances of exactly the opposite

How did Gandhi travel?

On foot, much of the time, by train, much of the time. but he never made claims to a vow of poverty.

Now if he ordered a hit on some Raj, that would be the equivalent of what MT did

**Gannon** · May-18-10, 04:27 PM

Thanks for the instruction...always open to new information, even IF it skewers someone held dear since childhood.

It's been tough to learn some of the reality of Kennedy's Camelot, too.

I guess I should doubt more of the Catholic stuff as much as I doubt the government. After leaving them, I've given 'em little thought...although I had one VERY weird encounter with an old UofM-Dearborn friend from Livonia who sternly warned me against taking the evangelical route and abandoning the 'faith of my youth'.

I felt he had some secret he REALLY wanted to share...but wouldn't cross that line. I may have to look him up...

Opus Dei, huh?! H-m--m-n-n. Thanks for giving me another rabbit hole to peek into!

Sincerely,
John

**GOAT** · May-19-10, 08:17 AM

No need to go into rabbit holes.

The pope yesterday stated that Bishops weren't paid by the RC church therefore they are not considered employees of the RC Church. This means according the pompous ass, that the RC church is NOT guilty of these sexual abuses.

I hope that thw whole top of the RC church comes crashing down around the pope. Hopefully Catholics start to demand more from his "arrogance". Once and for all, may the abuse stop and the survivors [[and those that didn't) get the compensation they deserve.

**jcole** · May-19-10, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by GOAT

No need to go into rabbit holes.

The pope yesterday stated that Bishops weren't paid by the RC church therefore they are not considered employees of the RC Church. This means according the pompous ass, that the RC church is NOT guilty of these sexual abuses.

I hope that thw whole top of the RC church comes crashing down around the pope. Hopefully Catholics start to demand more from his "arrogance". Once and for all, may the abuse stop and the survivors [[and those that didn't) get the compensation they deserve.

I had to look that one up. OH MY GOD. If they aren't paid by the church, how in the world do they live the lifestyle that they do? Private sector? I don't think I've heard of any bishop being the head of Microsoft or IBM.
So, if they are not employed by Rome or paid by Rome, the Catholics who have been obeying their strictures no longer need to do so. Am I wrong? Who are they supposed to obey; only the Pope himself? Excuse me for a while, but I got a lot of sinning to do.
BTW, I was born and raised Catholic as were my kids, so don't start knocking me as some sort of heretic.

**jcole** · May-19-10, 09:19 AM

Oh, and before anyone berates me for being uninformed, I realize that what the Vatican's legal team is doing is defining their 'corporate structure' so that the families of the abused altar boys can't sue them for anything. Their pockets are much deeper than the average diocese or archdiocese, so they'd rather let them take the hit.

Stosh · May-19-10, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

I had to look that one up. OH MY GOD. If they aren't paid by the church, how in the world do they live the lifestyle that they do? Private sector? I don't think I've heard of any bishop being the head of Microsoft or IBM.
So, if they are not employed by Rome or paid by Rome, the Catholics who have been obeying their strictures no longer need to do so. Am I wrong? Who are they supposed to obey; only the Pope himself? Excuse me for a while, but I got a lot of sinning to do.
BTW, I was born and raised Catholic as were my kids, so don't start knocking me as some sort of heretic.

Technically, they are employees of the Diocese, if I am not mistaken.

The way I look at it from a legal standpoint is this. The Vatican is the franchise owner. They have franchisees, called dioceses. Each franchisee has it's own contractors, or parishes, which they pay from royalties from the diocese, or a percentage of the take. It's the oldest MLM scheme in the world.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-19-10, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Technically, they are employees of the Diocese, if I am not mistaken.

That's correct, and that's the way it has been as long as I can remember.

**jcole** · May-19-10, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

That's correct, and that's the way it has been as long as I can remember.

Yes, I indicated that in my second message. Doesn't make it right

**Gannon** · May-19-10, 09:55 AM

Thanks for the update, Goat...and analysis, Jcole and Stosh.

Damn.

Doesn't that PROVE at least that the FLEECING is institutional? I mean, the bishop has to get his bling from somewhere.

The money trail is the key, and since it can be proven that the Vatican moved priest from ONE diocese to another...or CAN it?!...their hand can still be forced on this issue.

At least in countries that have RICO-style legislation in place.

The Vatican directs what the enterprise does, to the nth degree, and never EVER shows any discontinuity in power structure to the average layperson in the pews...and they dictate when the 'work' is to be performed...on Sundays...AND they even dictate the uniforms worn.

According to IRS dictates, they are employers then...no MATTER what their illegal corporate structure maintains.

I say illegal in this context because I'm pretty sure a corporation cannot be created merely to allow criminal activity to be perpetuated.

We're into some really deep excrement here, and it ain't smelling very good.

Cheers

**jiminnm** · May-19-10, 11:35 AM

While bishops are employees of their diocese, the Vatican and the Pope's reps are heavily involved in the selection process and the Pope has to approve the appointment.
www.usccb.org/comm/bishopsfinal.pdf

It will make an interesting legal battle.

**Papasito** · May-19-10, 01:46 PM

its amazing people still even go to Catholic churches
old school traditional borefest of a Sunday morning

Some non-denominational modern churches are much more down to earth, with rock music and compelling teaching, not preaching. You won't catch me going into a Catholic snorefest - ever.

**ghettopalmetto** · May-19-10, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Papasito

its amazing people still even go to Catholic churches
old school traditional borefest of a Sunday morning

Some non-denominational modern churches are much more down to earth, with rock music and compelling teaching, not preaching. You won't catch me going into a Catholic snorefest - ever.

Thank God for that!

Because, you know, what I want is a Church that throws away 2000 years of faith and teaching for some fads crafted in order to appeal to ADHD Americans. Maybe we Catholics need to have people gain the ability to "speak in tongues". You know--some REAL showmanship! Maybe we can march some zebras through the door. Maybe we can put LCD televisions on the walls, so we can go to Mass and not miss the big game. Maybe we can get a jive huckster preacher who drives a car with spinning rims and monitors in the headrests that show porn movies while he drives. Maybe we need people doing backflips and handsprings in the aisles like in the Blues Brothers. I don't know. Maybe we better convene a focus group, huh?=

My serious question, though, is, "How does a non-denominational church decide what to believe?" I mean, is it just made up? Do you take a vote? Does the preacher decide? Is it constant, or does it vary from week-to-week? I'm not trying to take a dump on anyone [[unlike the very active Catholic Vengeance Squad on this thread), but I have a difficult time understanding how you can call it a "church" without a particular credo.

**rb336** · May-19-10, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Because, you know, what I want is a Church that throws away 2000 years of faith and teaching for some fads crafted in order to appeal to ADHD Americans.

gee, and catholicism didn't change to fit in? christmas is on the date generally associated with the birth of Julius Caesar instead of the more likely [[according to even Catholic scholars) april/may? they never went back and forth on the infallibility doctrine? the music most heard in Mass...that was introduced during the period of time when that kind of music was the "fad." I take it you still prefer the latin-only Mass as well?

**ghettopalmetto** · May-19-10, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

gee, and catholicism didn't change to fit in? christmas is on the date generally associated with the birth of Julius Caesar instead of the more likely [[according to even Catholic scholars) april/may? they never went back and forth on the infallibility doctrine? the music most heard in Mass...that was introduced during the period of time when that kind of music was the "fad." I take it you still prefer the latin-only Mass as well?

Yes, and there were the Teutonic Order and the Crusades at one time too. You forgot that.

**Papasito** · May-19-10, 04:12 PM

My serious question, though, is, "How does a non-denominational church decide what to believe?" I mean, is it just made up? Do you take a vote?

And following a bunch of boring Catholics from Rome, the same Rome that jammed some spikes in Jesus' hands and feet is ok http://www.halexandria.org/dward228.htm ? The same Catholics that changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday? http://www.wwco.com/religion/believe/believe_39.html The churches have been winging it for 2010 years now. And just because an independant or non-denominational Christian/Bible teaching church doesn't don the title "Catholic" or "Jehovas Witnesses" or "Baptists" on the sign up front does not mean they can't legitimately worship just because they don't touch little boys, make you kneel on a bar and stick a wafer in your mouth. Catholic Church is a bunch of boring and strict rituals, all made up by the Catholic church. Faith comes from within you, a church is only a place that makes it a community meeting place of faith. You don't need a church and outdated rituals, a few snazzy robes and bad music to give you a guaranteed place in heaven.

By the way did I mention Catholic church is boring?

**maxx** · May-20-10, 05:30 AM

"By the way did I mention Catholic church is boring?"

The cry also of little children who only have TV, ipods, and the internet in addition to all the books, games, and sports that past generations had for entertainment.

Gannon:
The true believer sees the supernatural in everyday events because s/he needs to. True believers see a "miracle" in the one survivor, especially it s/he is a child, and overlook the hundreds of dead.

**maxx** · May-20-10, 05:32 AM

"By the way did I mention Catholic church is boring?"

The cry also of little children who only have TV, ipods, and the internet in addition to all the books, games, and sports that past generations had for entertainment.

Gannon:
The true believer sees the supernatural in everyday events because s/he needs to. True believers see a "miracle" in the one survivor, especially if s/he is a child, and overlook the hundreds of dead.

**Sstashmoo** · May-20-10, 08:10 AM

Quote: "how you can call it a "church" without a particular credo."

The definition of church in the Bible is two or more gathered in his name. The "credo" is the word of God. Organized religions are fabrications of man. How one believes is the right way.

**rb336** · May-20-10, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by Papasito

Catholic Church is a bunch of boring and strict rituals, all made up by the Catholic church.

actually, many of them were "borrowed" from various roman and non-roman pagan traditions, zoroastrian practices and Jewish practices. For almost every saint, there is a pagan analog

**rb336** · May-20-10, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Yes, and there were the Teutonic Order and the Crusades at one time too. You forgot that.

ah,, lovely barbaric things, those. what is your point?

**Papasito** · May-20-10, 10:46 AM

the Crusades were a defensive battle against Muslim expansion, though.

http://article.nationalreview.com/31...homas-f-madden

The crusades are quite possibly the most misunderstood event in European history. Ask a random American about them and you are likely to see a face wrinkle in disgust, or just the blank stare that is usually evoked by events older than six weeks. After all, weren't the crusaders just a bunch of religious nuts carrying fire and sword to the land of the Prince of Peace?
....
The crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were the West's belated response to the Muslim conquest of fully two-thirds of the Christian world. While the Arabs were busy in the seventh through the tenth centuries winning an opulent and sophisticated empire, Europe was defending itself against outside invaders and then digging out from the mess they left behind. Only in the eleventh century were Europeans able to take much notice of the East. The event that led to the crusades was the Turkish conquest of most of Christian Asia Minor [[modern Turkey). The Christian emperor in Constantinople, faced with the loss of half of his empire, appealed for help to the rude but energetic Europeans....[[cont'd)