Brown wins Mass. Senate race in epic upset

[Papasito]

Health care is a right. See: Article 25 of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

health care already is available. emergency rooms cant refuse us. insurance is available everywhere. for those of us who are poor, there is medicaid. the plan on the table is mandated health insurance premiums for all, not "health care". if you dont pay for the mandated health insurance, you are fined. we've been over all this before.

what the industry needs is pricing controls. not government takeover.

[gibran]

and how many times can you be wrong and still try to use ER's as an example when people live past that experience and need extended treatment ...TBI SCI or other traumas that don't go away in a day or two...get back to me when you understand that I have seen first hand people refused services, that were discharged way to soon only to go to a nursing home at twenty years old, that parents can't get equality in treatment for thier kids, that preventive measures would have saved people from expensive complications of simple things like diabetes...that 2900 people die each year... that in the African American community they have a higher rate of heart diease and the Native Americans and Latinos have higher rates of diabetes...yes

we have been over it ...and you folks don't get that we are so low in the industrialized nations standards of delivery in the are of service delivery it becomes a moral issue.


America has let profit seekers dominate the debate since the early 20th century...time to let Americans voice their concerns...

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "what the industry needs is pricing controls. not government takeover."

Probably the best and simplest solution I've read yet. I don't think anyone in their right mind really wants the Government to take over their healthcare, anything they touch, vaporizes.

[oladub]

Quote: "what the industry needs is pricing controls. not government takeover."

That would be a good way to develop shortages and a breakdown of the health system sort of like gas lines when Jimmy Carter tried to ration gasoline. We could have lines of sick people when medicines and health personel became unavailable.

A better idea would be to recognize how government edicts and regulations have driven up the price of health care and address that. Another idea would be for Democrats to buy Kaiser and offer hospital stays, operations, medicine, and exams for half what everyone else charges.

[SteadySky]

Oh what a load of stuff....

How about some cold realities. If you are ill and visit an ER you will get medical aid. May not be pleasant. Long term care options may not be "the best," but you get help and you don't pay for it.

Here is some truth from a middleclass professional in the middle. I work hard, I pay a lot of taxes, I volunteer, I give to my Church, I educated myself, I am a Veteran, and I obey the law. This stupid Obama healthcare monstrosity will tax me more, limit my coverage, and take more of my income to support some unsustainable utopian idea. Its another great society effort. In the end I will be the "guy in the middle" paying more becasue I can and those who can't - or won't will get another handout. When the damn thing spins into the ditch because of out of control costs, etc., new taxes and limitations will squeeze us crazy middle class suburbanites more. Then the guy who is poor, or uneducated, or foolish, or was unwilling to get off their ass when they were young and make something of themselves will still be getting what amounts to a hand out. In other words more than what is fair. I and my family will get no more coverage or options, but we get to pay for it.

Healthcare is NOT a right. The government has a few roles on this matter and one is to assist with cost management so that everyone can have the opportunity of ACCESS to healthcare. It is not a given, it is not a right, and it is not something that is equal. That's the cold truth. You get the chance and opportunity for access to healthcare that you decide to buy. If I can provide better for my family, then my family will get better care. Its the benefit of working hard, taking business risks, and getting a solid education.

The way this stupid plan has been shaped, I will get my healthcare plan taxed extra because it is a "cadillac plan." But the schmuck who is a union member and has a "cadillac plan" will get an exemption from the extra tax. All becasue he supports the current President and his party. Its like another version of Delphi. The non-bargaining employees got screwed on their pensions or at least took a big haircut. But the bargaining unit guys? Nope, they got protected. Why? Becasue of political patronage and payback for supporting the "right" politicians.

Go ahead and flame me. This stupid reform package was a special interest mess and a power grab by people who crave power. When you have the power you do not need to worry about the money. It tends to come with the power.

The Democratic Party blew it and tried to ram this thing down the throat of America. It really is unraveling now. Both parties when in power run too far towards their ideology and end up accomplishing nothing.

Hopefully we do not have another political hack with great speaking skills run for office in the future and keep running around proclaiming "change" and "change you can believe in" again. Unfortunatley, we as a people are forgetful and tend to buy into this crap all too often.

[barnesfoto]

The untruths spoken by the naysayers reveals the weaknesses of their arguments.
The myth that anyone can go into a hospital emergency room and get treatment reminds me of another myth circulated by conservocrites some years ago: The myth that MLK was a communist. Edith Isabel Rodriguez, who died while a janitor mopped around her on the floor of an emergency room in King-Drew Hospital, 2007, is an example. Here's the tape:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=2925028n

I'm also tired of myopes [[especially those who already enjoy government health care, like the poster above) simplifying the argument to "Hey I worked hard and got an education, that's what everyone should do, fuck you underachievers.

Well, I did the same thing, and as a self employed person, paid for my own health insurance, until I was found to have a certain defect in a heart valve that put me on a blacklist of sorts, and caused my insurance costs to soar. Now I got a "prexisiting condition".


"A better idea would be to recognize how government edicts and regulations have driven up the price of health care and address that"


if price controls are bad, why does Japan [[a country where a cab ride in Tokyo can easily start at 100.00) have cheaper health care than the US?

In Japan, everyone is required to have health insurance, but that requirement doesn’t break the bank. All medical procedures in Japan have fixed rates, and the costs of staying a night in a hospital costs anywhere from about $9 for a shared room to less than $100 for a private room. The price in the United States for an overnight stay in a hospital room per night tends to be substantially higher. According to Reid, under the universal Japanese health care system, the Japanese spend half as much money per capita as Americans do.

The health care bill in Japan is paid through a mixture of low taxes and insurance premiums that don’t fluctuate much. Blaine Harden in the Washington Post described Japan’s system this way, "Health care in Japan—a hybrid system funded by job-based insurance premiums and taxes—is universal and mandatory, and consumes about 8 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product, half as much as in the United States. Unlike in the U.S. system, no one is denied coverage because of a preexisting condition or goes bankrupt because a family member gets sick."

Reid notes that Japan’s system is, by comparison, leagues ahead of the American one. "Why doesn’t the world’s richest country provide health care for all its citizens?" Reid asks. "And I’d say that in researching this book I think I’ve figured out the how. I think I’ve figured out why other countries do it, but I still haven’t figured out why we don’t." Japan, while not the wealthiest country in the world, certainly ranks among the world’s top economies.

Source: http://www.campusprogress.org/fieldr...care-is-better

So it remains to be seen whether our country will continue move towards the third world country version of health care, [[got money? you got health care!) or attempt to move towards the model of all the other developed countries in the world and make basic health care coverage available to everyone. But right now, our country looks like a dog chasing its' tail.

[gibran]

I too am middle class, have a family, run a business, pay high taxes, developed programs to take care of vets when their government didn't, give to my church and volunteer both professional services and time to young people, people with disabilities and even train those who do going forward, I obey the laws and come from a background where compassion and respect was paramount to the values my family members who put their lives on the line...

I've seen my parent life saving destroyed because they were between policies...and just happened to get sick...i've had to talk to to many families whose loved one with a TBI or SCI, couldn't come to get services in a hospital because of funding issues..so as the countless marriages broke up and families bankrupted...i find little rational thought to justify any of that...when we have the services available..or as i heard once from a co-worker "those with the gold are those who receive treatment."

here's were we agree a little..the democrats caved and delivered their president's brave action for HC under the wheels of the special interests bus. Could it have been better crafted yes..but the dem's sold out and the republicans used it politically...so no one wins except those whose monies financed this excise in masterbation.

here's were we disagree a lot...Health Care should be a right or at least a provision no different than our children's education. We serve our government and pay taxes..all American have the right to health care ... so let's try it from another perspective while there is a debate about it being a right..maybe we should look at it as a universal entitlement that is established by a social policy and agreement that all Americans should have access to basic health and extended services to contribute equally to the greater good of all. The maximum good to the maximum number of people. Now where libertarians are concerned with less government and concerned with constraints of the government into our lives... we would still need intervention to get the insurance companies to do the right thing, and last time I checked Doctors were not accepting chickens as a barter system to pay for an MRI.

As far as the concept for self-responsibility..that is great when all things are equal..we are not there yet..so accommodations need to be made for those born into poverty and circumstances that arise with an economy that is ever challenging. the Libertarian generally is in denial that there exists any rights to health care [[[[Algrem, 2007). they also can't find a way to deal with diversity and differences in social structures... this is ripe for the "I got mine mentality"...not realizing that it behoves them to push for moral alternatives for the way things have been distributed.

WHO [[world health organization)..feels there is a strong correlation between universal access to HC and average population health outcomes...and that when population is healthy and educated it correlates also to higher quality of life and productivity...so this goes to the reinforce that "work ethic' that those who rally as a cure all for the ills of society.

In short when looking health care as a entitlement and not a right maybe we can get to a moral understanding that a "just" state is one that "must be of benefit to the most vulnerable in the populations or least advantaged" ...

Rawls looks at this in a simple way..."the simple provision of medical care, as with primary goods generally, is to meet the needs and requirements of citizens as free and equal.' Makes sense if you realize the costs of doing business is tied to HC as of late and the cost for people waiting for all those free services take away from productivity..

but the cost to underwrite a fair system is a moral decision and we all know about morality of those who see others as "solely" responsible for their station in life..especially if they a children, young disabled, poor or new to this country...our system is equal for some and difficult at best for others...but thats ok...because I worked hard for mine...and those who really want it can go and find it....until there is a crash in the job market or a recession.

so I would fall into the camp that wants to see reform done in stages with the brightest and best involved ..starting with some protection for pre-existing conditions, caps on law suits [[ except where beyond a shadow of doubt there was a premeditated decision to with hold treatment based on funding or clear neglect) and portability.Have a a national referendum....and

the morality of not extending life or quality of life is a moral issue...moral issues are the first step in making an agreement, then we agree that we need to pass legislation to protect these agreement and laws to enforce them...

so you see I firmly beleive we are judged by how we treat the least of our brothers and sisters...and to quote a "liberal" what you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me"...so even if we all go to church and do the right thing if we don't face inequalities in HC and reform the system people will continue to die each year ...and by the way many of the same "canned arguments have been around since universal HC was initially proposed...

picking your own MD's ...how many of you can do that realistically now...
socialized government run medical ace...verses, what insurance run care?
promoting the purchasing power of citizens..how many of you can afford to go out and by a free standing policy?
panels for health related issues....who do you think sets the LOS lenght of stay now for your CVI and TBI hell..even regular patients are sent home as soon as the pluse is steady[[dramatic characterization )

so here is my take until we treat every one equal and there is no disparity in HC and health related issues we should all work to reform HC...and yes it should be a UNIVERSAL something...entitlement or right...

if not then look a family in the eye and say your son doesn't deserve the same care mine...or that a vet living on the street has equal access to HC if there is no hospitals round, or a native American kid who suffered a TBI has to travel three states away to get care...or a person has to decide whether they take their proper dosage or eat....IT IS A MORAL issue...

or to qoute "it's our health stupid and the economy...."

[gibran]

wow barnes we were all over that

[Rideron]

The U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a Hallmark card of warm fuzzies with no meaning whatsoever.

[oldredfordette]

Two amazing well thought out posts followed by a petulant swatting. Thanks gibran and Barnes. Way to whine, Rideron.

[johnsmith]

One amazing assumption is that some people believe health care is a basic human right. No other right that I can think of, to exercise, requires anyone else's direct involvement or labor to provide [[besides the military or police indirectly "protecting" our freedom to exercise these rights). There are no rights we have that are provided to us from others. How can healthcare be a right if it requires taking from others to exercise? I can't think of one right, in order to exercise, that requires violating someone else's. Rights are inherent, they exist on their own and do not require any outside force to possess. I have yet to hear a sensible answer as to why some people believe being provided with healthcare is a right.

[SteadySky]

Thank you Johnsmith - you are exactly right.

The rest of the stuff between my last post and yours is just nice stuff. Yes, yes, let's take care of our brothers [[and sisters too). But it means that the public resources aimed at helping the misfortunate are limited and should be basic in nature. You help, but you don't make it equal. The intent is to help while people move forward and better themselves [[or better themselves through assistance) and move onward and upward. Where in the world did you ever get the idea that you get the same deck of cards played to you because you exist? What utopian or socialist idea is that? It only works if you just keep taking from others and then give to others in order to balance out the whole field. That does not work and it defies human nature and aspirations.

Should we help the poor, needy, or those in who have fallen on hard times? Yes, you bet! But don't buy into this idea that we all should be getting the same wonderful and equal treatment. Why try hard? Why work? Hey, then you get to pay more! As a matter of fact, let's write laws that won't even let you pay out of your pocket for better healthcare if what is governmentally available is not what you want. What a dark direction that would be for individual freedom and desires.

On a personal level, my wife has spent her whole career [[20 years worth) in the healthhcare consulting professinal doing actuarial and underwriting work. Highly educated in her field and has done a wonderful job helping corporations [[big and small) provide benefits to their employees. This monstrosity would destroy her career. Destroyed by a bunch of politicians who would end up using it as a patronage system to their friends and supporters. Another example of transfering wealth from one and giving it to another.

Start over. Doing small things to fix the problems in the system and don't destroy what is good about it. Most Americans like the current system as it provides for their needs. That should be the first factor when the government addresses an issue, "first - do no harm.".

[rb336]

One amazing assumption is that some people believe health care is a basic human right.

hardly an amazing assumption, since virtually EVERY civilized nation on the planet considers it as such, and even Founding Father George Washington spent a lot of political capital driving through health care and housing provisions for poor citizens. [[look it up)

grow up and get out of the dark ages of serfdom. oh, wait. I forgot, that is the right wings ideal political system

[Mikeg]

Health care is a right. See: Article 25 of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

That's rich! The UN has lost whatever moral authority it may have once had.

The corrupt United Nations is great at lecturing and terrible when it comes to performing and living up to its ideals and declarations. It's leaders give lip service to monitoring and sanctioning human rights-abusing member countries, their peace-keepers are given free reign to rape and terrorize the very people they were sent to protect, they've plundered the oil-for-food program for personal gain, they've practiced nepotism on a scale that would make Kwame Kilpatrick blush, they've covered-up sexual harassment allegations made against them, and the list goes on and on. Look up the definition of "international kleptocracy" and it will say, "See also: United Nations".

[gibran]

Do ever wonder why people are afraid of the Declaration of Human Right? Must be they are ok with Karma of the opposite....or that they would have to be held accountable to a system that doesn't reward greed and self-centerness

[Mikeg]

Do you ever wonder why some posters respond to others by simply ascribing dark motives to them? It must be because they are __________ [fill in the blank with your own aspersion].

[oladub]

Moral posturing was derided by Jesus. Now , the pharisees of our day are telling us what is right. The problem is that they have to derive what is morally right from some outside source unless, maybe, they are Randian rationalists. Barnesphoto, at least, can point to United Nations documents as his guiding star. I prefer the founding documents of the US for civic decision making and fairly common religious based motives for personal decision making. What is surprising is the more baseless and foggy concept of 'right' based on what feels good or trendiness as often witnessed here. A problem with the latter is that many otherwise good people have historically been caught up in feel good and trendy movements, including political and religious movements, that have resulted in great harm being done. An example would be good people who supported leaders and movements that have brought down their own societies as exemplified in the book/movie Reds in which well meaning revolutionaries' efforts are used by Bolsheviks to gain control- not at all what many of the revolutionaries had in mind. Closer to home, we have a monstrosity of a health care bill that the nation cannot afford but which amply rewards status quo players such as insurance companies, bureaucrats, pharmaceutical giants, and trial lawyers. No doubt, many of its supporters feel they are doing the right thing. There are, however, better solutions.

A good place to start would be to look at why US health care is so unaffordable compared with much of the developed world. A libertarian would consider the government's role in driving up the price of health care with its mandates – often favoring the inclusion and promotion of insurance companies, bureaucrats, pharmaceutical giants, trial lawyers, and other non-productive stakeholders as created by Democrats and most Republicans. Sure, there are Nader, Kucinich, and Paul, among others, who want to cut one or the other group out of the cost, but most Republicans and Democrats support the status quo including its lucrative kickbacks to their campaigns. To not do so would be to take the blame. Consequently, they, their media, and sheeple followers do not seriously consider why health care here is so expensive. They instead, expand upon the mess they made in order to fix it.

Following are some clues as to where savings can be made. It would be a good starting place before we cut out the non-productive parasites who make our health care system so expensive. This can be accomplished either by returning to a more free market with more options and by treating adults as adults or by setting up state run single payer systems [[like the individual Canadian provinces) as allowed by the 10th Amendment.

From Congressional testimony to Congress by a Doctor who has cut his office visit costs in half by starting an insurance free medical clinic-

As you walk up to the clinic, you will see a large sign that has information about the cost for various medical problems. Poison ivy - $25. Sore throat - $35. Simple lacerations - $95. A doctor who actually enjoys practicing medicine today – priceless [[and we do take Mastercard). These fees, which are about 50% of the Medicare Allowable, are listed on the brochure I brought with me and should be available to you.

The only way that I can keep my prices so low is by avoiding the crushing overhead and hassles that other physicians allow third party payers to impose on their practices. I even don’t take Medicare, a potential source of a great number of patients, because doing so would force the uninsured to pay for the cost of processing other patients’ medical claims – a service from which they clearly do not benefit. Forcing me to hire more staff to bill on behalf of Medicare beneficiaries would defeat the purpose of my clinic. From day one, the clinic has centered care around the uninsured and patients with high deductibles, even if it meant seeing fewer patients and thus receiving a lower income.

-Congressional testimony at http://www.aapsonline.org/freemarket/berry.htm

2010 PATMOS fees schedule can be found at http://www.patmosemergiclinic.com/

This is just one way of attacking the high cost of health care that stems from questioning how health care became so expensive and who made it so. If every aspect of medicine were addressed in the same manner, costs would similarly plummet. Libertarians would ask those questions, status quo Democrats and most Republicans would not. They like the system the way it is, moral posturing aside, and want to expand on it.

[johnsmith]

hardly an amazing assumption, since virtually EVERY civilized nation on the planet considers it as such, and even Founding Father George Washington spent a lot of political capital driving through health care and housing provisions for poor citizens. [[look it up)

grow up and get out of the dark ages of serfdom. oh, wait. I forgot, that is the right wings ideal political system

Washington? You mean George Washington, the slave owner?

Who are you calling right wing? Do you label, judge and categorize people routinely?

A right to something ends once you begin infringing on another's rights. I'm not saying universal healthcare is morally wrong or unattainable in this country, and I'm not necessarily against it, but to call it a "right" is hardly logical.

[johnsmith]

Do you ever wonder why some posters respond to others by simply ascribing dark motives to them? It must be because they are __________ [fill in the blank with your own aspersion].

It means it's the only thing they have left, they can't back up their beliefs so they use the last thing available, which is to smear, attack and defame the character the opposition.

[Mikeg]

It means it's the only thing they have left, they can't back up their beliefs so they use the last thing available, which is to smear, attack and defame the character the opposition.

I think you've got it! So then, if we want to be polite and concise, we could fill in the blank with:

It must be because they are "running on empty".

However, could it be that their weak response is nothing more than a non sequitur, akin to a juvenile school-yard taunt?

It must be because "their mama is so ugly her shadow quit".

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "That's rich! The UN has lost whatever moral authority it may have once had."

Not with me it hasn't. Can you please explain your disdain for this organization?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I have yet to hear a sensible answer as to why some people believe being provided with healthcare is a right.

I'm sure you'll have one when YOUR EMPLOYER stops paying for yours.

[rb336]

Washington? You mean George Washington, the slave owner?

the same, nice bit of an ad hominem on the FOOC

Who are you calling right wing? Do you label, judge and categorize people routinely?

oh -- did I actually call someone right wing? no, I didn't. but if the shoe fits...

A right to something ends once you begin infringing on another's rights. I'm not saying universal healthcare is morally wrong or unattainable in this country, and I'm not necessarily against it, but to call it a "right" is hardly logical.

First, that is a very narrow and absurd definition of a right. I will give you an example of how: Your right to own a house ends when it infringes on my right to sleep whereever I want to. the true definition, according to m-w, is " something to which one has a just claim" do you have a just claim to health care? what is a right to life, if that doesn't include the right to the healthcare required to make that life possible?

[Gistok]

Washington? You mean George Washington, the slave owner?

Who are you calling right wing? Do you label, judge and categorize people routinely?

Don't you just love it when people contradict themselves within the same post....

[Det_ard]

If health care is a universal right then it's the right of all people, not just people in the US. Do you support a legal mechanism that would bestow health care coverage to all 7 billion people on earth? Even it necessarily impoverished people in wealthy countries like the US? It seems to be consistent you'd have to support the peoples' right to health care no matter the impact on others, since it's a fundamental and universal human right. Do you disagree?