Recent crime wave downtown and near downtown

[joesmithrocks]

Reports of riverwalk gang dominance on weekend nights now proliferating. Cops outnumbered downtown and mostly observe.

What are these "reports?" Have you seen this happening? Have you seen cops just observing gangs? I'm on the riverfront all the time - I live there - and I've never witnessed or heard anything like this.

[Zacha341]

Well stated! Detroit has it's own criminal and gangs who intermingle at festivals - got that.

Additionally, with the Hoedown there are some from the burbs that imbibe too much with a contemptuous 'let's trash the ALREADY trashed Detroit' mentality and angst!

I've seen that attitude and behavior when out and about during that festival and other public events. As a rule I now avoid the extreme 'alcohol-based' festivals like the Hoedown...

I don't go downtown during that weekend anymore. Last time I went two years ago there was more than ample policing... downtown. It was business as usual in the neighborhoods: lack of coverage.

There was no lack of police presence downtown this weekend. Cops were everywhere, posted up on every corner, on foot, on horses, and had at least 25+ cruisers patrolling downtown. That's a lot of manpower. DPD worked its ass off too. The problem was not policing, the problem was the rowdiness/drunkenness of the crowd. Lots of teenagers drinking in parking structures and then acting up, fighting, yelling, throwing stuff, and disrespecting others. You'd need to quadruple the number of officers downtown to even make a dent in the situation. DPD did a good job of controlling traffic and pedestrian flow, responding FAST to situations, and cleaned up the mess as well as anyone could expect. The only thing DPD could have improved upon was open intoxicant enforcement. I saw many people carrying around open beers or bottles of liquor that should have been ticketed. The fact that people who aren't from here feel comfortable blatantly breaking the law in public says something. This IS NOT New Orleans. Perhaps I'm asking too much of country music fans to keep it classy.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. Coverage downtown is very good... 'strategically' so during these events. The neighborhoods are suffering from lack of coverage ongoing.

I noticed that, too, this weekend. I've never seen anything like the lack of police presence downtown when there was a Tigers game *and* a Hart Plaza festival going on.

[Trumpeteer]

Agreed. Coverage downtown is very good... 'strategically' so during these events. The neighborhoods are suffering from lack of coverage ongoing.

Stayed at the Courtyard on Jefferson Fri-Mon and saw DPD everywhere! Overall, kept pretty good control of the Hoedown crowd. Looking out our rooms window down toward the Ren Cen around midnight Friday night I heard what I'm convinced was about 6 gunshots [[automatic?) and a crowd walking away from Hart toward the Ren Cen ran like hell across Jefferson scattering everywhere. Probably a dozen DPD cars all over the area within seconds. People mover also had cops at every stop.

Did see a lot of young white teens loitering in the surrounding decks drinking, acting stupid. A lot apparently drove in from the burbs as I overheard in the lobby as they checked in with large groups carting in case after case of beer. HOWEVER, the hotel was incredibly quiet the whole weekend. Go figure.

[Reno]

FYI to the individual who claimed they live in the burbs because they can walk around without fear of being victim of a crime...My mothers subdivision in Sterling Heights was recently subject to a wave of break-ins [[over a dozen houses in a few block area)...There has been lots of news recently of a man sexually assaulting women in DOWNTOWN Royal Oak...crime is seemingly up everywhere, don't fool yourself.

[Bham1982]

FYI to the individual who claimed they live in the burbs because they can walk around without fear of being victim of a crime...My mothers subdivision in Sterling Heights was recently subject to a wave of break-ins [[over a dozen houses in a few block area)...There has been lots of news recently of a man sexually assaulting women in DOWNTOWN Royal Oak...crime is seemingly up everywhere, don't fool yourself.

These sorts of anecdotes are useless.

The Feds require cities to keep publicly-available crime statistics.

If you feel Sterling Heights has the same crime rate as Detroit because your Mom said so, that's fine, but the statistics don't support this claim.

Doesn't mean that Detroit is uniformly dangerous, or that suburbs are uniformly safe, but there's no question that crime within city limits is a serious issue not shared by most places in Michigan.

[English]

There was no lack of police presence downtown this weekend. Cops were everywhere, posted up on every corner, on foot, on horses, and had at least 25+ cruisers patrolling downtown. That's a lot of manpower. DPD worked its ass off too. The problem was not policing, the problem was the rowdiness/drunkenness of the crowd. Lots of teenagers drinking in parking structures and then acting up, fighting, yelling, throwing stuff, and disrespecting others. You'd need to quadruple the number of officers downtown to even make a dent in the situation. DPD did a good job of controlling traffic and pedestrian flow, responding FAST to situations, and cleaned up the mess as well as anyone could expect. The only thing DPD could have improved upon was open intoxicant enforcement. I saw many people carrying around open beers or bottles of liquor that should have been ticketed. The fact that people who aren't from here feel comfortable blatantly breaking the law in public says something. This IS NOT New Orleans. Perhaps I'm asking too much of country music fans to keep it classy.

Granted [[as observed on the other thread), I only went out on Friday to run a quick errand, and had to get a ride with friends Saturday, so I can't fully judge. But we were surprised by the lack of police outside of the Tigers games, and on Jefferson at the Hoedown, on *foot*. We all remarked we'd never seen that -- and the buddies who dropped me off are lifelong Detroiters in their 60s.

[agrahlma]

Mandee's...out-of-hand again last night. My wife and I pulled-up two chairs and had front row seats for three fights. One involved a man sucker punching a woman. Word to the wise – do not venture down Broadway [[near Gratiot) when the bars are closing.

[chitaku]

As a regular at the Well living in Grand Circus, my rule is no walking down Broadway during bar nights/hours. Seing a few shootings at Berts was all I needed.

[Zacha341]

Well stated. Thank you.

These sorts of anecdotes are useless.

The Feds require cities to keep publicly-available crime statistics.

If you feel Sterling Heights has the same crime rate as Detroit because your Mom said so, that's fine, but the statistics don't support this claim.

Doesn't mean that Detroit is uniformly dangerous, or that suburbs are uniformly safe, but there's no question that crime within city limits is a serious issue not shared by most places in Michigan.

[stasu1213]

Three weeks ago I had noticed that the AT&T store had a wooden board on it's front door. I had wondered if someone had tried breaking into the store. Dowtown Detroit's crime wave escalation is a result of less police patrol due to cuts. I had thought that cameras were posted around the downtown area. Police could watch by monitor each section of downtown so if someone is attempting to break into one of the stores they would be caught almost immedeately Criminals know that they could get away with crime downtown for the police response time is too long. Go into the surrounding suburbs and see how well their' downtown or business district is protected. I am not blaming the police.I am blaming the cuts that the mayor and the city council had made to public service. Unecessary cuts. As far as fights, stabbings, and shootings occurring at these clubs downtown; whenever certain type of venues are allow to open in the downtown area certain elements that usually doesnt go downtown will patronize these venues, They bring themselves with them. Fighting, shooting, stabbings are part of some of them. That is why the suburbs don't want those type of clubs in their cities which would attract those type of people. I wonder if the tax collected from the liquor license has to do with the allowance of these types of venues openening downtown.

[SWMAP]

"What are these "reports?" Have you seen this happening? Have you seen cops just observing gangs? I'm on the riverfront all the time - I live there - and I've never witnessed or heard anything like this."
Joesmithrocks: do you think the reports might be right now that WXYZ is reporting several shots fired and one wounded on the Riverwalk this evening?

[English]

Joesmithrocks: do you think the reports might be right now that WXYZ is reporting several shots fired and one wounded on the Riverwalk this evening?

I was on the East Riverwalk at this same time. Scary. Very scary.

[joesmithrocks]

"What are these "reports?" Have you seen this happening? Have you seen cops just observing gangs? I'm on the riverfront all the time - I live there - and I've never witnessed or heard anything like this."
Joesmithrocks: do you think the reports might be right now that WXYZ is reporting several shots fired and one wounded on the Riverwalk this evening?

Hey SWMAP,

I was there this evening. I was on the river walk immediately following the shooting tonight. I did not witness the shooting itself. What I did witness was a huge police presence. I saw a suspect handcuffed and sitting on the step next to the sprinklers, in front of the Ren Cen. I talked to the police and other witnesses. There was one incident. One wounded. No one died. The shooter was in custody.

This is a terrible event. A shooting right at the spot where families hang out all day and evening - right where children play. It's horrible to think that this happened. And I can't think of a punishment harsh enough for a thug who would pull his gun and fire it there, at 8:30 on a Sunday evening when the entire riverwalk was packed. And this shooting tonight is exactly why I started this thread. There has been a rash of shootings downtown in the last month, when normally, shootings are rare down here.

But what you posted about "gangs roaming freely on the riverwalk" and the outnumber cops "just observing" is complete and total bullshit. You've completely exaggerated the facts, or you're just posting some lies someone told you. Either way, it's irresponsible. People bashing our city with lies like yours does nothing to help us solve our problems.

Do everyone a favor, and post something true. It would be greatly appreciated.

[SWMAP]

No. Not exaggerated. Yes, from cop anecdotes that they are are too thin and that they only go in when pretty much forced to - for their own safety.
Also their info is that the Riverfront is getting dangerous.
I think the truth coming out about crime downtown actually will help. When City Hall can't hide behind calming mis-statements is when finally solutions are found.
I realize that you have a stake in downtown safety. I don't live far away and I have a stake in Detroit, too. I own my house and have for a long time.

[Supersport]

"First, the off-duty police officer who was robbed was armed. It really didn't do him a lot of good."

The guy that tried to mug him was critical, possibly dead now. I'd say having the gun saved the officers life. Every person able to legally own and carry a gun should do so. These crimes listed have been occurring for the past decade I've lived here, with clubs being the worst thing going for downtown Detroit.

[DocTerry]

Don't know about River Walk, but they often do just wait til the fight is over, then call EMS or make sure no one is dead when there is a fight in Southwest. Even when its a group of young men all jumping on one. Wish it was bull, but its not. And agree we have to start talking about this kind of thing. Pretending its bull isn't helping any, even if we'd rather it was. And not all the beat-down victims are bangers. Some are just young men of color.

[BrushStart]

I was there this evening. I was on the river walk immediately following the shooting tonight. I did not witness the shooting itself. What I did witness was a huge police presence. I saw a suspect handcuffed and sitting on the step next to the sprinklers, in front of the Ren Cen. I talked to the police and other witnesses. There was one incident. One wounded. No one died. The shooter was in custody.

This is a terrible event. A shooting right at the spot where families hang out all day and evening - right where children play. It's horrible to think that this happened. And I can't think of a punishment harsh enough for a thug who would pull his gun and fire it there, at 8:30 on a Sunday evening when the entire riverwalk was packed. And this shooting tonight is exactly why I started this thread. There has been a rash of shootings downtown in the last month, when normally, shootings are rare down here.

But what you posted about "gangs roaming freely on the riverwalk" and the outnumber cops "just observing" is complete and total bullshit. You've completely exaggerated the facts, or you're just posting some lies someone told you. Either way, it's irresponsible. People bashing our city with lies like yours does nothing to help us solve our problems.

Here's what I can add:

I spent most of my Saturday afternoon biking the Riverwalk and Belle Isle. It was beautiful, but there was an unusual number of young men/teens hanging around. Some were acting obnoxious and rowdy, but whatever. I didn't get irritated until one kid with a pocket knife pretended like he was going to poke my bike tire as I rode by at a slow speed. I understand that he probably thought he was just being funny, but what the hell is that about?

Later that evening, I was getting on the PM to meet up with some friends and there happened to be a cop on the train. I asked him if there was an event going on because of all the teens hanging around the RenCen/Riverwalk. He told me that there was a Young Jeezy concert going on, but that the reason there were so many kids on the Riverwalk was that the kids organize these events called "Hookup Parties" online. He said that they come from the Eastside and the Westside and that rival gangs come to scope each other out or something. Apparently, it has happened before and he said that "GM is sick of putting up with it." That was on Saturday. Obviously, the shit happened again and there was a shooting on Sunday evening. He also told me that Belle Isle is having similar problems, which is why they shut it down at 10pm.

As far as police presence on Riverwalk, on Saturday, the police/security presence was heavy. I saw at least 4 Wayne County Sheriffs, probably 2-3 security officers, who have arrest power, and about 3-4 security patrols on bikes. They were sprinkled between the RenCen and Miliken Park and were being pretty proactive in confronting people who were acting up. I saw them escort one bum off the Riverwalk and confronted kids who were acting out.

Whatever the situation, the city cannot let the Riverwalk and Belle Isle be taken over by thugs and goons. It is too nice of an environment to let it be destroyed. People like Faye Nelson have put in too much sweat and tears to have the place overrun by fools. While I haven't had problems in the past, tonight's shooting should be a wakeup call. Perhaps we need an ordinance that requires kids 16 and under need to be supervised by a parent or guardian to be on the Riverwalk or Belle Isle. Also, Belle Isle needs to charge a toll so that idiots who just blare their music and drive in circles will find some other place to do it than the city's serene parkland. That shit is so annoying.

[Russix]

The first couple warm weekends are always a nightmare. My car along with a half dozen others were vandalized by some asshole walking down the street kicking the passenger windows in. It happened Saturday night right at midnight, I literally had walked by my car 5 min before and returned 10 minutes later to discover the broken window. If you park your car on Willis St and have a large shoe print on the passenger window, this is what its from.

[Zacha341]

You actually found a spot to park on Willis? I recall living in that area and hated the problem of finding parking, then the vandalizing of your car after you parked. Ick.

This Saturday night was particularly nuts. Perhaps folks acting out in response to the 'end of the world' thing. Any excuse will do...... Having their part in the 'end' by doing stupid stuff. I heard alot of gun shots into the night. Sunday night too in my area [[new center). And yes, the warm weather was a factor!

The first couple warm weekends are always a nightmare. My car along with a half dozen others were vandalized by some asshole walking down the street kicking the passenger windows in. It happened Saturday night right at midnight, I literally had walked by my car 5 min before and returned 10 minutes later to discover the broken window. If you park your car on Willis St and have a large shoe print on the passenger window, this is what its from.

[SWMAP]

The very fact that Wayne County Sheriff's are policing the Riverwalk should tell us something about the level of concern and the level of DPD deployment.
The Riverwalk has become a gang or thug territory on weekend nights. I have seen this in SW Detroit. They have a modus of pushing everyone else out- families, older white people, etc. It's a nice space and the thug theory is "we run this street."
How could a curfew possibly work? Parents/ preachers were up in arms and threatening when Taubman instituted a curfew policy for young teens at Fairlane. Taubman stuck to it because they could. Can you imagine the reaction in Detroit if curfew ordinances were to be rigorously enforced on the Riverwalk? Repression of Black kids. STRESS.
I think that you just have to cede the Riverwalk on weekend nights for safety.

[Pam]

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...wntown-detroit

[midtown1982]

Ceding the river is unacceptable, and seems like the kind of thing that we [[Detroiters) have been far too guilty of in the past. That is, just accepting these things as part of life. I hope there's some truth to the "GM is sick of putting up with it" comment. There's been way too much money invested. I'm not smart enough to know what the exact solution is, but it just can't be that hard [[we're not the first city to have rowdy teenagers).

[joesmithrocks]

There is a curfew on the riverwalk - it closes at 10:00. The security and police walk the entire route and make everyone leave.

Yesterday, around 3:00 in the afternoon, before the shooting, I was walking the riverwalk and a young mother walking with her kids said to her man, "So the riverwalk is the only real cool spot left in Detroit." I smiled. The sun was bright, the temperature hot. There were walkers and bikers and runners and families and people of all races out enjoying our park. Black, white, arab, asian, indian. It was a beautiful day. So many people were dressed up and looking good, walking slow. And kids everywhere. It was a perfect day in the park. It was so beautiful, I was returning to the riverwalk for a second stroll when the shooting happened.

I don't know why a 16-year-old kid brings a gun to the riverwalk, pulls it and fires it in the very center of the park, where families and children are gathered - in the middle what is really the most beautiful public spot in the city. And I don't know how to fix it.

All I know is that's the sixth shooting in the heart of downtown in the last five weeks - that I know of.

[Fnemecek]

I don't know why a 16-year-old kid brings a gun to the riverwalk, pulls it and fires it in the very center of the park, where families and children are gathered - in the middle what is really the most beautiful public spot in the city. And I don't know how to fix it.

Why someone would do that almost doesn't matter. He probably had a reason, but it won't make any sense to a normal human being.

As for what to do about it, I'll just say this. When more than 95% of the city is left without any effective police protection or other basic services, a multitude of challenges begin to emerge. When it continues unabated for years at a time, eventually those problems spill over in to 5% of the city that folks in CAYMC care about.