If Detroit Got a Mall, Where Would You Put It?

[Detroitnerd]

So why do we make everyone do their shopping at a one-size-fits-all shopping mall full of chain retailers, then?

Shhhh! We're going to bring in prosperity by building malls!

[Vox]

Shhhh! We're going to bring in prosperity by building malls!

Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.

I think if there is to be a concentration of any sort of stores, there should be a focus of sorts on a specific niche. I'd favor the outlet store concept. Why drive all the way out to BFE to save a few dollars shopping, when the same could be had locally?

[ghettopalmetto]

Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.

Yeah, that'd be really fucking hilarious IF IT DIDN'T WORK EVERYWHERE ELSE. Rebury your head in the sand.

I think if there is to be a concentration of any sort of stores, there should be a focus of sorts on a specific niche. I'd favor the outlet store concept. Why drive all the way out to BFE to save a few dollars shopping, when the same could be had locally?

You're overthinking this. Before you have shopping, you need to have disposable income. To create disposable income, you need to have high employment and wages. To get high employment and wages, you have to stop bleeding educated people out of Michigan.

You can build Saks Fifth Avenue/Barney's/Tiffany's megastore in downtown Detroit. It would certainly be "unique", but it ain't gonna do jack shit if nobody shows up.

[canuck]

[QUOTE=Vox;241736]Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.

Bear with me, I am onto something!

There are probably more innovative ways to lure folks into the city and sticking around other than by building light rail or shopping venues. I would start looking into maybe a whopping budget-style parking tower designed by Frank Gehry or Jean Nouvel or Norman Foster. There has to be something that can draw crowds into the city apart from silly shopping and an odd sports event...
Cheap parking in a 50 story tower with elevators. [[Sao Paulo has some) This would certainly make more sense than a choo-choo train to nowhere and would rake in tourism money. Next to Cobo hall is the destination. People from all over would congregate to worship said structure for its sculptural qualities and not least; its convenience. Never mind the Woodward revival, just think suburban access by automobile to this monument to suburban efficiency. Never mind access to shops; I am talking about the status quo with an added feature: a parking lot of immense proportions. No political involvement is needed, no controversy, no naysaying, a green flag, a checkered flag; go!

[canuck]

Yeah, that'd be really fucking hilarious IF IT DIDN'T WORK EVERYWHERE ELSE. Rebury your head in the sand.



You're overthinking this. Before you have shopping, you need to have disposable income. To create disposable income, you need to have high employment and wages. To get high employment and wages, you have to stop bleeding educated people out of Michigan.

You can build Saks Fifth Avenue/Barney's/Tiffany's megastore in downtown Detroit. It would certainly be "unique", but it ain't gonna do jack shit if nobody shows up.

You can also leave things as they are and nobody will show up and the job situation will remain what it is or worsen.

[ghettopalmetto]

Prosperity via malls has as much chance of success as prosperity via light rail.

Bear with me, I am onto something!

There are probably more innovative ways to lure folks into the city and sticking around other than by building light rail or shopping venues. I would start looking into maybe a whopping budget-style parking tower designed by Frank Gehry or Jean Nouvel or Norman Foster. There has to be something that can draw crowds into the city apart from silly shopping and an odd sports event...

I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

[Vox]

I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

Do you live in Detroit?

[canuck]

I had hoped you were joking, but your last sentence in the paragraph indicates you're dead serious about this.

The word "lure" is Code for "trick", "cheat", "bamboozle", "bullshit". Is that REALLY how you want to build a city? By tricking and bribing people into showing up? What are the odds they'll return of their own volition?

You know what's the absolute BEST way to "lure" people to a city? When people WAKE UP THERE EVERY MORNING AND GO TO BED THERE EVERY NIGHT.

We have an expression in french referring to your last sentence; Métro-boulot-dodo. In short it means a very dull day or week or sequence in a life where you take the train to work and back home to sleep...

That is not very realistic and it doesnt leave much room for the fanciful either. I wouldnt expect that from you Gp. There will always be a bamboozling in attracting people anywhere. There was a lot of it in eleventh century Paris and there is obviously a whole lot of it in places like Vegas. I mean, you need to create an environment that attracts and keeps folks in the downtown so that the cigar store on the corner is as much of a working feature of the city as the bus stop and the convention center. Tourists also have to expect a shopping mall in Detroit. I relate attractions to urban equipment; not just frivolous stuff: but that too! Some people on this thread mention the need for an amusement park and they think it is important to have one nearer Detroit proper. That is legitimate and to me, not unnecessary. The biggest mistake our friend Bloomberg in New York has made in his Dont Fuck with Mr Clean campaign is to slowly dismantle Coney Island. Maybe the Russian mafia is a scary feature of that hood and he is being cautious I dont know. But I think Coney Island is as important as the High Line Park. Maybe Bloomberg has some bad memories of trying to get some action under the boardwalk at sixteen and getting turned down.

[Redleg81]

We have an expression in french referring to your last sentence; Métro-boulot-dodo. In short it means a very dull day or week or sequence in a life where you take the train to work and back home to sleep...

Just speaking for myself, if I worked downtown, I'd welcome napping in a safe, comfy seat on a light rail or commuter train versus contending with the mad rush of automotive idiots, some of whom aren't even insured around here...

[Bham1982]

The biggest mistake our friend Bloomberg in New York has made in his Dont Fuck with Mr Clean campaign is to slowly dismantle Coney Island.

They're substantially growing the amusement portion of Coney Island. I was there last summer and it's much bigger than before.

They have a new Italian-owned amusement park, which is a ton better than the older amusements. They also have a new roller coaster and rides for this year.

There has been a Coney Island "clean-up", but it's basically a transition from seedy and declining to family-friendly and growing. Not a bad change if you ask me.

As for shopping malls, they definitely can be huge economic growth engines.

Look at Novi. It was a nothing hick town before Twelve Oaks. The mall spawned thousands of jobs and huge new tax revenue. Same thing with Great Lakes Crossing and Hall Road corridor.

[canuck]

Wow, I didnt know that. Very happy to hear that! Thanks Bham!

Yes, malls are important too. They may be structured in ways where cars arent the only way to get to them if you dont need to fill your trunk. I guess downtown malls with good transit choices can eliminate the need for car travel if you are shopping for clothes or smaller items. If someone kicks the habit of driving into town and enjoy the freedom of pedestrian access, they invariably will explore and frequent other businesses. For the price of a limited parking meter time, you can take the bus or train at your convenience and avoid the rush hour madness, the cost of gas, the added mileage on your car...

[EastsideAl]

Sterling Heights

[ghettopalmetto]

Look at Novi. It was a nothing hick town before Twelve Oaks. The mall spawned thousands of jobs and huge new tax revenue. Same thing with Great Lakes Crossing and Hall Road corridor.

Spawned? Or relocated?

I think you mean the latter.

I've got nothing against "fanciful" or "nice" things, but when a city like Detroit lacks basic functioning equipment like reliable transit service, walkable streets, adequate police and fire protection, and amenities like drug and hardware stores in neighborhoods, constructing shopping malls for hypothetical would-be tourists falls WAY down the priority list.

When was the last time YOU took a vacation to visit a shopping mall?

[Crew]

When was the last time YOU took a vacation to visit a shopping mall?

You have obviously never vacationed with a gay man.

[Bham1982]

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

Somerset Inn on Big Beaver is almost entirely sustained by vacationing visitors to Somerset.

And a quick glance at the Somerset parking lot will reveal tons of out-of-state plates. Especially tons of Ohio and Ontario, but folks from all over.

Like it or not, Somerset has the best upscale shopping between NYC and Chicago.

[Brian1979]

I've long wondered how a shopping mall would do in Detroit. Something on the scale of the Eaton Centre in Toronto, maybe a little smaller scale. I think something on the riverfront east of the Ren Cen would be a good spot.

[ghettopalmetto]

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

Somerset Inn on Big Beaver is almost entirely sustained by vacationing visitors to Somerset.

And a quick glance at the Somerset parking lot will reveal tons of out-of-state plates. Especially tons of Ohio and Ontario, but folks from all over.

Like it or not, Somerset has the best upscale shopping between NYC and Chicago.

So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right? The snow will get plowed, police will show up, people will be able to get to work, and no one will have to buy groceries from a liquor store.

Gee, it's so simple, it makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already!

Shopping malls are dying all over the country, and you clowns want to build yet more of the sterile, corporate-owned, plastic-generic claptrap with the same 100 stores you can find anywhere else. Good luck with that. Since y'all are native-born Detroiters and all, I'm sure you're well-versed in the history of the retail space of the Renaissance Center, but I digress....

DETROIT: Home of ideas that failed 20 years ago elsewhere.

[iheartthed]

Shopping as tourism is pretty common.

He didn't say "shopping as tourism", he said "took a vacation to visit a shopping mall". You know that hardly anyone is coming from more than a 50 mile radius to shop at Somerset, unlike the urban shopping districts in Chicago and NYC which derive a significant percentage of their customer base from legitimate out of town visitors. Somerset was never meant to be a tourist destination.

[Bham1982]

He didn't say "shopping as tourism", he said "took a vacation to visit a shopping mall". You know that hardly anyone is coming from more than a 50 mile radius to shop at Somerset, unlike the urban shopping districts in Chicago and NYC which derive a significant percentage of their customer base from legitimate out of town visitors. Somerset was never meant to be a tourist destination.

I don't see the difference, and yes, I think many Somerset visitors come from afar.

Probably 10% of the cars in the lot are from Ohio, so they're all from further away. Ohio has no equivalent shopping.

And all the nearby hotels have Somerset shopping packages.

Really, I don't think its any different than vacationing visitors clogging the streets in Manhattan's SoHo.

Now obviously these are two very different shopping environments, and the specific demographic will be different, but both derive heavy dependence on shopping as tourism.

Same thing at Great Lakes Crossing to a certain extent. Folks from Up North, Indiana, and all over.

I can't stand shopping malls, but obviously folks disagree. The same fannypack bus tour crowd that loves Frankenmuth fills Great Lakes Crossing.

[Bham1982]

So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right?

I never said a Detroit shopping mall makes sense. The regional doesn't need more malls.

I only questioned the assertion that shopping, speaking generally, isn't a potential vehicle for economic growth and tourism.

[iheartthed]

I don't see the difference, and yes, I think many Somerset visitors come from afar.

Probably 10% of the cars in the lot are from Ohio, so they're all from further away. Ohio has no equivalent shopping.

And all the nearby hotels have Somerset shopping packages.

Really, I don't think its any different than vacationing visitors clogging the streets in Manhattan's SoHo.

Now obviously these are two very different shopping environments, and the specific demographic will be different, but both derive heavy dependence on shopping as tourism.

Same thing at Great Lakes Crossing to a certain extent. Folks from Up North, Indiana, and all over.

I can't stand shopping malls, but obviously folks disagree. The same fannypack bus tour crowd that loves Frankenmuth fills Great Lakes Crossing.

You can't be serious. Somerset is supported almost entirely by local dollars. I'd be absolutely shocked if more than 10% of the revenue at Somerset came from patrons who live more than 50 miles from Metro Detroit. I mean, maybe this would be feasible if Detroit were geographically isolated like Seattle, but it's sandwiched between two other very large metropolitans, Chicago and Toronto, as well as some other medium-large metropolitans, Cleveland and Cincinnati.

Northwest Ohio may not have a Somerset, so Somerset may attract some shoppers from there, but otherwise, you can find everything in Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati that you can find at Somerset. And Cleveland even has a Cheesecake Factory!

[stasu1213]

So copy Somerset within the city limits of Detroit, wait for people "from all over" to show up, and then everything is gravy, right? The snow will get plowed, police will show up, people will be able to get to work, and no one will have to buy groceries from a liquor store.

Gee, it's so simple, it makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already!

Shopping malls are dying all over the country, and you clowns want to build yet more of the sterile, corporate-owned, plastic-generic claptrap with the same 100 stores you can find anywhere else. Good luck with that. Since y'all are native-born Detroiters and all, I'm sure you're well-versed in the history of the retail space of the Renaissance Center, but I digress....

DETROIT: Home of ideas that failed 20 years ago elsewhere.

First; when the RenCen had good retail stores they were mostly hard to find by shoppers. It was hard to navigate your way around the RenCen during the 70s to the 90s before the redesign of the interior. Second, the RenCen wasn't as inviting from the Jefferson side as well as the rear of the complex; Third, the riverwalk didn't exist during the RenCen's early years. The Riverwalk bring thousands of people by or inside the rencen yearly. Just imagine had it existed when the shops were at the RenCen. I still say use the first levels of these office buildings downtown for retail. The Penobscot could have some retail and shoppers could walk down Woodward to the Dime, Buhl, First National, and along merchants row for more shops. Each large building has it's own security who sits near the entrances to curtail the potential influx of shoplifting and other crimes, Also. leave the 9 ot 5 mondays thru fridays hours of operation mindset crap behind. Have hours such as 10 to 7 on weekdays and open on weekends for Godsake.Nothing to do downtown on a weekend outside of festivals and the like but the suburbs have all the major shopping destination

[ghettopalmetto]

I never said a Detroit shopping mall makes sense. The regional doesn't need more malls.

I only questioned the assertion that shopping, speaking generally, isn't a potential vehicle for economic growth and tourism.

It's quite a valid assertion--shopping malls-as-tourism rely on people from "elsewhere" being "lured" to a place and spending their dollars there instead of at "home". In other words, it's a form of economic development that relies entirely on geographic shifting of cash. It doesn't produce anything new, it doesn't create anything new--just like a casino, it's just a way for people to show up, drop cash, and leave. This is a TRANSFER of wealth, not wealth creation. And with a shopping mall, you're just transferring wealth within the micro-economy of Southeastern Michigan without increasing the GDP.

So, what's the problem with that? Well, you can't base an economy on people buying the same crap from each other, because that's ultimately a zero-sum game. At some point, you need a means to generate and grow wealth that makes your cash shell-game possible in the first place. This game is also known as "The Bigger Sucker", as without being able to find a bigger sucker to drop his hard-earned dollars in your town vis-a-vis elsewhere, the whole Ponzi scheme falls apart.

Unfortunately, the Detroit region has focused "economic growth" on activities that do not generate and grow wealth:

Shopping Malls
Stadiums
Casinos

For every Twelve Oaks, there's a Wonderland. For every Somerset, there's a Northland. How's that working out in the long-run?

The proof is in the proverbial pudding. Diluting the pudding might increase the volume, but it doesn't make more pudding.

[RickBeall]

I would put a Detroit mall in Troy. Maybe I would put one in each suburb.

[3WC]

It will never, ever happen.

Al Taubman tried to put together a deal in the 80's for a multi-story mall on the Hudson's-Kern site a la ones in San Diego and Toronto. If anyone could have done it Taubma could. He even purchased the Cadilac Tower Building [[long story there) which he was going to demolish if he could work a deal. He was wired in with every major anchor in the country and had a lot of power over them. He couldn't put it together.

Mall tenants want to be in the center of a large population of demographically acceptable customers, with access from all directions.

To counter that objection and jump-start a residential renaissance downtown he and Max Fisher built the Riverfront Apartments. It was clear to them and everyone who was remotely familiar with real estate finance that the Riverfront would never make a dime and in fact would lose a lot of money over the years [[as it has.) At the groundbreaking someone said the project was Max and Al's "gift to the City." The prospective anchors weren't impressed and the mall idea died - forever. Except in the unreasonable dreams and fantasies of a few folks, of course.