If Detroit Got a Mall, Where Would You Put It?

[Gistok]

Well in lieu of what 3WC said... they did build 1 thing... the mall's People Mover Station...

I can't remember if it's still announces the name of the [[never-to-be) mall... or if it was renamed the Campus Martius Station....

But I remember the PM voice announcing... "This is the Cadillac Centre Station"....

[canuck]

ghettopalmetto;241878]It's quite a valid assertion--shopping malls-as-tourism rely on people from "elsewhere" being "lured" to a place and spending their dollars there instead of at "home". In other words, it's a form of economic development that relies entirely on geographic shifting of cash. It doesn't produce anything new, it doesn't create anything new--just like a casino, it's just a way for people to show up, drop cash, and leave. This is a TRANSFER of wealth, not wealth creation. And with a shopping mall, you're just transferring wealth within the micro-economy of Southeastern Michigan without increasing the GDP.

That is a fact of retail wherever you live. If you buy your smoked salmon online from Nome Alaska, you will undoubtedly create a bunch of problems.

So, what's the problem with that? Well, you can't base an economy on people buying the same crap from each other, because that's ultimately a zero-sum game. At some point, you need a means to generate and grow wealth that makes your cash shell-game possible in the first place. This game is also known as "The Bigger Sucker", as without being able to find a bigger sucker to drop his hard-earned dollars in your town vis-a-vis elsewhere, the whole Ponzi scheme falls apart.

This is complicating it a little bit isnt it?

Unfortunately, the Detroit region has focused "economic growth" on activities that do not generate and grow wealth:

Shopping Malls
Stadiums
Casinos

Well they do generate wealth, the problem is in the balance; How many and where and why and when and what for? Talk to people in construction who periodically revamp these commercial spaces and ask them about the business they generate.

For every Twelve Oaks, there's a Wonderland. For every Somerset, there's a Northland. How's that working out in the long-run?

The proof is in the proverbial pudding. Diluting the pudding might increase the volume, but it doesn't make more pudding.

The idea that they must all be the same is mistaken. I have an aversion to the sameness aspect of these things to, But downtown shopping malls have an advantage in that they can be integrated to bigger buildings and favor many types of retail from low to high end. A case in point in my city is that major shopping malls didnt want the Dollarama chain in there for a while until they realized that is what drew people in as much as the Sears or Bay stores. Dollarama is a local company that is more profitable than Walmart selling stuff at a buck and a quarter.

What I mean is Detroit's CBD could handle a couple of malls with variety and it would probably spur other retail on the street. There are 20+ malls in Montreal's downtown in major bldgs and they have not hindered street retail. Any new development includes a shopping plaza and food court. Cadillac-Fairview want to build a 4 tower plaza around the Windsor train station and Bell Center in downtown, and it will have shopping.

[Huggybear]

So why do we make everyone do their shopping at a one-size-fits-all shopping mall full of chain retailers, then?

Not sure - apparently retail tenants like it, and customers at least tolerate it. We probably need to come to grips with the idea that most people aren't put off by malls and like doing everything at once [[it's probably for that reason that chains like to cluster together). And as hard as this seems to believe, many major cities [[including San Francisco) have enclosed shopping centers. Even the downtown Hudson's was essentially a mall unto itself. Treating shopping centers as absokute anathema makes me think some people are doing penance for growing up in Farmington Hills.

People fixate on the failures of particular types of shopping centers [[usually some specific example extrapolated to mean "all"), but in general, indoor or outdoor malls dominate the retail scene in our area. Suburban shopping malls certainly sucked the retail life out of Detroit and pull the high hundreds of millions of Detroit dollars out annually. You can't buy a new computer, decent dress slacks, name-brand baby clothes, new kitchen appliances or even a Cadillac within city limits.

If I were running the place, I would look at this [dysfunction] and conclude that if we needed something ugly like a mall to provide basic middle-class necessities, I would sign off on it in a heartbeat. Mall-style retail certainly is not going to draw residents, but it is important for retaining residents [[particularly wage earners with families) who otherwise would become frustrated with driving 12 miles or more each way for necessities or only having a single source in the city. Household size has a huge effect on population, and having families is a big factor in that [[though you need good schools, too).

As a catalyst for pulling more development, big shopping centers are a mixed bag. You can point to Southfield, Novi, Lake Angelus, and Madison Heights as large-scale successes [[at least for several decades). Office development around Northland in particular pretty much killed downtown Detroit as the center of commerce. Or go down to Garbage Mountain at I-94 and Oakwood and take a look at the massive, constantly packed retail complex that has taken shape. At the same time, there are some developments with little surrounding spinoff, like Somerset or Fairlane.

I guess the bottom line to this is that to be functional, Detroit needs a mix of chain and independent retail. Having independents without the high-volume majors is like having the sprinkles without the cupcake.

[iheartthed]

And as hard as this seems to believe, many major cities [[including San Francisco) have enclosed shopping centers. Even the downtown Hudson's was essentially a mall unto itself. Treating shopping centers as absokute anathema makes me think some people are doing penance for growing up in Farmington Hills.

So first, I agree that there is room in Detroit for chains and homegrown shops.

But enclosed malls tend to perform poorly in urban centers. A perfect example of this is Manhattan Mall, which for everything it has going for it -- high foot traffic in the vicinity, adjacent location to transit hubs -- has historically performed very poorly compared to its department store and street level retail competitors. Lately MM's prospects have improved but that's essentially because the entire mall has been transformed into a JC Penney store.

From my own personal observations from visiting/living in different cities, I think there are basically a handful of situations that make an urban mall successful: 1) large numbers of tourists, 2) unique retail offerings and/or lack of retail options in the area, 3) being integrated into a high traffic transit hub like Union Station in DC or Grand Central in New York.

[ghettopalmetto]

I guess the bottom line to this is that to be functional, Detroit needs a mix of chain and independent retail. Having independents without the high-volume majors is like having the sprinkles without the cupcake.

Agreed. But "chain" doesn't necessarily mean "mall" [[although "mall" inherently means "chain").

If you want to rebuild Detroit, you have to restore the public domain, that is, the street life. By herding everyone into an indoor PRIVATELY-OWNED shoppingandparkingplex, you've killed any hope of that idea coming to fruition.

And yes, people do seem to be turning against traditional shopping malls, hence the development of "power centers" and "lifestyle centers", and the continued popularity of more traditional retail districts like Georgetown and the Back Bay.

The sole exception seems to be "high-end" malls, where the stores aren't duplicated dozens of times over in a given metropolitan area [[Somerset, Tysons Galleria). Then again, last time I checked, the high- end stores on King Street in Charleston, SC weren't doing too shabby.

Some want to look at this like a chicken-and-egg problem, as in, "Build a mall and the tourists will come!". Nothing could be further from the truth. As cities have found out with downtown malls since the late 1970s, it just doesn't work that way. Retail in tourist locations works because the tourists *are already there* for other reasons--the shopping is incidental. You can't convince me that Londoners visit Charleston specifically to buy a Hermes scarf.

[Huggybear]

GP, I think there is a theoretical distinction between malls [[inside, outside, whatever) and chain retail. Malls don't necessarily mean "chain," as evidenced by things like the composition of Northland through the 1980s and 1990s [[both large chains and independents).

But the practical reality is that national retailers have their own hierarchy, which you could characterize as "anchors," "leaders," and "followers." This leads to a lot of clustering. You have A so you get B so you get C. How a development goes in is a different story and seems to depend on the community's bargaining power. Greenfield developments sprawl out; trying to drop a shopping center [[or area) into a dense, functional urban market seems requires more concessions to city planners.

Detroit is a weird case - it's a dysfunctional urban market where zip codes contain wide income disparities [[this is a very big problem for getting retail). So although some people would say we could fiat in an "urban" style store by forcing "creativity," there may not be enough of a market to force a retailer to suck up the extra cost. But there is nothing to say that giant stores need to be stuffed into downtown proper. There is a huge amount of space in the I-96, I-75 and I-94 corridors that could be tapped for a major center. The Brewster site wouldn't be bad at all, and you could probably still have synergies with a wide band beginning at Eastern Market, moving through midtown and the CBD, and ending up in Corktown.

[canuck]

Huggybear

Treating shopping centers as absolute anathema makes me think some people are doing penance for growing up in Farmington Hills.

Or maybe it is a form of punishment meted out on Detroit. Either way, I think we need to bring abit of levity to this. Royce put a question out about where should a mall happen in Detroit, and I think for this city, in a region and country that know a tiny bit about commerce there is a spiritual distrust of the mercantile. The many ways of sneaking commerce into every aspect of life [[excluding none) has taken a toll on a lot of people since the offer has dwindled in the city. If the center of town which is still valuable to important corporations and beloved by many citizens needs retail, then it shouldnt be a question of either/or. It is not just a chicken and egg problem, any more than transit is a chicken and egg problem. It is a complex issue involving race, economic opportunity, social dynamism, mobility, tourism, educational advancement, civic pride, inventiveness, architectural integrity, employment, variety, levity, happiness, and action.

[royce]

Well in lieu of what 3WC said... they did build 1 thing... the mall's People Mover Station...

I can't remember if it's still announces the name of the [[never-to-be) mall... or if it was renamed the Campus Martius Station....

But I remember the PM voice announcing... "This is the Cadillac Centre Station"....

You know, Gistok, I always wondered why the stop that now goes through the Compuware complex is/was called the Cadillac Centre Station. I didn't know that a mall of that name was planned for the area. Now, I raised this question once before on a prior thread, "Why didn't Hudson's build a multi-story parking deck attached to the downtown store to attract suburbanites and keep city folks from going to Eastland or Northland?" Well, I guess Hudson's never saw a reason to spend that kind of money building the structure when they really weren't competing against another major store. If you bought something at Hudson's Eastland or Northland stores, then the profit was still going to Hudson's. So I guess I just answered my own question. Never mind.

[royce]

So first, I agree that there is room in Detroit for chains and homegrown shops.

But enclosed malls tend to perform poorly in urban centers. A perfect example of this is Manhattan Mall, which for everything it has going for it -- high foot traffic in the vicinity, adjacent location to transit hubs -- has historically performed very poorly compared to its department store and street level retail competitors. Lately MM's prospects have improved but that's essentially because the entire mall has been transformed into a JC Penney store.

From my own personal observations from visiting/living in different cities, I think there are basically a handful of situations that make an urban mall successful: 1) large numbers of tourists, 2) unique retail offerings and/or lack of retail options in the area, 3) being integrated into a high traffic transit hub like Union Station in DC or Grand Central in New York.

Situation three makes me think that if you put the Rosa Parks Transit Center on the old Hudson's site and then build a Target store on the site, you might get the shopping traffic needed to make the store successful. Also, bus riders/shoppers taking busses from the major arterial streets, would be dropped off and picked up right next to the store. With all of the people waiting for busses, they would most certainly go into Target from time to time and then realize that they could satisfy most of their shopping needs at that point instead of taking another trip later on in the week to go to a Target store in the suburbs. Build residences above the Target store and you might have a slam dunk development.

BTW, I'll admit that I like Target stores and think that it would be a bit of irony if a store that was an off-shoot of Hudson's returned to the site where it all began.

[wolverine]

^ The trend I've noticed with most urban Targets...now officially rebranded "City Targets" are located on major mass transit routes. The newest target stores in Chicago: Roosevelt Station, Wilson Yards, and next year Sullivan Center all have El stops. With the exception of Roosevelt, the other stores are part of multi-use complexes and fully support other retail along the front of their stores.

I seriously believe if Detroit puts in light rail, you will see a Target store following close behind.

[stasu1213]

I beginning to wonder if the leaders in Detroit and it's surrounding suburbs are playing both sides against the middle. City leaders would say we will keep the bars, clubs, restaurants, and parks while you suburbs could keep all of the retail including the malls. I would be surprise that no candidate in Detroit would make it into office unless she/he will agree to play that game

[Junkin4Life]

They should build a Shopping Center on Livernois Near McGraw/ I-94, Add a Home Depot with it

[Bham1982]

You can't be serious. Somerset is supported almost entirely by local dollars. Northwest Ohio may not have a Somerset, so Somerset may attract some shoppers from there, but otherwise, you can find everything in Cleveland, Columbus or Cincinnati that you can find at Somerset.

There's nothing between NYC and Chicago that's remotely equivalent to Somerset. Ask anyone in commercial real estate or retail leasing. That's why it's such a big regional tourist draw.

There's no mall anywhere in Ohio that can hold a candle to Somerset. Beachwood Place, the nicest mall in Ohio [[suburban Cleveland), doesn't have most of these stores, so Somerset definitely gets metro Cleveland traffic.

Somerset has stores like MaxMara, Gucci, Stewart Weitzman, Lilly Pulitzer, Tory Burch, Intermix, etc. These stores don't exist between NYC and Chicago.

There is a short list of about 12 or so top malls nationally, and Somerset is on that list. Top retailers look to these malls first.

NYC area- Short Hills, the Westchester, the Americana
LA area- South Coast Plaza
DC area- Tysons
Philly area- King of Prussia
Miami area- Bal Harbor
SF area- Stanford
Chicago area- Old Orchard
Houston area- Galleria
Dallas area- Northpark

Of course there's also Manhattan, and smaller centers like Beverly Hills, downtown SF, etc. These downtowns are far above these top malls [[with Manhattan's Madison Ave. at the very top).

[Hypestyles]

They should build a Shopping Center on Livernois Near McGraw/ I-94, Add a Home Depot with it

who owns that big abandoned industrial site there? It could house any number of things, or get turned into a public park/forest..

[krapug1]

There is a short list of about 12 or so top malls nationally, and Somerset is on that list. Top retailers look to these malls first.

NYC area- Short Hills, the Westchester, the Americana
LA area- South Coast Plaza
DC area- Tysons
Philly area- King of Prussia
Miami area- Bal Harbor
SF area- Stanford
Chicago area- Old Orchard
Houston area- Galleria
Dallas area- Northpark

Of course there's also Manhattan, and smaller centers like Beverly Hills, downtown SF, etc. These downtowns are far above these top malls [[with Manhattan's Madison Ave. at the very top).

To this list of top malls, add the combined Copely Place/Prudential Center in Boston.
These 2 complexes give you the anchor stores of Neiman Marcus, Barney's, Lord and Taylor, and Saks. The Saks anchor is the only Saks in that region giving them a unique draw.

Ken

[stasu1213]

The building that was once the Asian Village on the riverfront could be used as a bazaar or mini mall where items such as running/walking shoes, sports apparel and other items that would compliment the riverwalk and other walking trails.

[iheartthed]

There's nothing between NYC and Chicago that's remotely equivalent to Somerset. Ask anyone in commercial real estate or retail leasing. That's why it's such a big regional tourist draw.

You must be defining "regional tourist" as someone who comes to shop from places within 50 miles of Metro Detroit. Otherwise, trust me, they do their tourism shopping in Chicago or Toronto.

[Junkin4Life]

who owns that big abandoned industrial site there? It could house any number of things, or get turned into a public park/forest..

The Kronk Center site would be perfect for a public park/forest

[Junkin4Life]

I was told Redford High School would be a shopping Center

[Junkin4Life]

And ALSO re-do Tower Mall into a site similar to Studio 1

[Hypestyles]

And ALSO re-do Tower Mall into a site similar to Studio 1

curious.. where is tower mall, and what is studio one?

[Junkin4Life]

curious.. where is tower mall, and what is studio one?

Tower Mall is on Grand River on the northeast side of Greenfield. and Studio 1 is on Woodward on the southwest side of Forest

[cramerro]

I think some of the criticisms, while agreeably not following the spirit of the thread, are legitimate considerations when answering the question. A mall in Detroit won't happen unless there is something uniquely valuable that the suburbs don't have, like a clean, connected regional public transit system that suburban customers can easily use, and/or residents/employees that will shop there to draw. I’d say we’re on the brink of both of those with the Midtown incentives to live and the Woodward transit project… brink being 5-10 years away from those being firmly in place. The infusions of employees downtown is reassuring, but there are already shops in the RenCen that cater to that bloc, and retailers aren’t exactly getting into fist fights to secure those spaces.

Why on earth would any developer or tenant choose to invest millions to locate in the city where crime and services are so terrible, when most of their customers and employees will have to drive to get there anyways? Our traffic congestion [[especially these days) is negligible - they can drive to all those existing malls around the city limits and even father out, which are located more centrally between the city and suburban employees and customers. This set of ideas is the driving force behind ‘greenfield’ and ‘suburban’ development, and the financials are difficult to argue with in even a decent economy.

I would love to see some sort of retail mall along Woodward, either in midtown, downtown, or in between, tied into as many existing and new transit lines/bus routes as possible. Trying to pull customers from the entire stretch [[New Center-Midtown-Downtown) seems like it would offer a good core of workers and residents. I think a location in Downtown would work best if the light rail goes in, because people in Midtown and New Center would be more willing to ride the train 5-10 minutes into Downtown than the other way around. I think the mall should also tie in a big-box style grocer [[Meijer, Walmart, Target with groceries, etc) that would also fill a critical gap in affordable, accessible groceries and other basics that downtown and all the surrouding neighborhoods badly need. There are several examples of treatments of WalMart and Target stores in urban areas that are slightly smaller area and built into the urban fabric - I'm not talking a typical 200k sf supercenter with 10 acres of parking. The location's access to transit I mentioned above as key #1 make it a prime site for convenient grocery shopping for nearby residents and those who can't drive out of the city to shop.

The most upsetting suggestion to me is locating a mall at the Poletown site. What a sick, ironic twist of fate that would be, that an entire community was leveled to build a factory for 20 years [[assuming it failed/was closed in the scenario), only to be closed and replaced by a use that is second only to an auto plant when it comes to the antithesis of sustainable communities and neighborhoods.

[Junkin4Life]

Grand River-Greenfield site needs a serious makeover

[Junkin4Life]

...as well as Grand-River - Oakman Blvd site