Blues lead way back to urban core

[English]

Eh. It was too easy.

[canuck]

Some people wont be happy until Detroit is totally run into the ground and forgotten.

In its place; a cbd with an evocative name like Southfield will continue the hard earned right of people to trade in something old for something new; the planned obsolescence of urban planners. Like cars, and very much in the spirit of our time, any piece of property you leave behind will inevitably be worth a lot less than the one you are aiming for. The gluttony for land, the futility of industrial success and its following demise will lead us full circle to a time when the First People had yet to observe the destructive effects of ownership. But that will take many moons.

[Detroit Stylin]

Eh. It was too easy.

Yeah I know right....lol

[iheartthed]

Chicago's downtown is on the edge of the metro, on a lake. You have essentially no employees coming from points east. Oak Park is in the very geographic heart of the region... or is that Naperville?

I can't think of any downtown that is at the geographic center of an American metropolis located near a major water system. Downtown is almost always at the point of origin for the city, and for major American cities that usually means near a port.

[cloud_wall]

This is a nice discussion about urbanism, etc., but BCBS is not moving into urban centers because of any greater mission to promote city living.

BCBS is moving people and money into these cities - and getting Tom Walsh to write about it - because it is fantastic leverage for later on with the cities and the Legislators in Lansing who represent those districts.

God knows they can afford to do it. So if you can turn your HQ into 1) positive publicity, and 2) [[even more) political clout, might as well.

And in the process, they are hopefully accomplishing a great deal of good in those cities, which is nice for all the rest of us.

[Bham1982]

Chicago's downtown is on the edge of the metro, on a lake. You have essentially no employees coming from points east. Oak Park is in the very geographic heart of the region... or is that Naperville?

Totally apples and oranges. Chicago has a large number of white collar professionals living within city limits, and Detroit has few. Chicago also has a large commuter rail network, and Detroit has none.

But even Chicago has been losing business and people to the suburbs for 50 years of non-stop decline. In fact, Chicago's population loss is second worst in the nation, behind only Detroit.

And Chicago's downtown real estate market [[commercial and residential) is basically a disaster, with the second largest year-over-year declines in the nation. Only Vegas is worse.

But downtown Chicago will remain vital because it has a resevoir of corporate talent, and easy access to suburban talent. Downtown Detroit would be a convenient location if decisionmakers and workforce lived in the city in large numbers, but they don't. They mostly live in Oakland County.

[Bham1982]

I can't think of any downtown that is at the geographic center of an American metropolis located near a major water system. Downtown is almost always at the point of origin for the city, and for major American cities that usually means near a port.

I can think of relatively few downtowns hat aren't at the geographic heart of the region.

Most are, such as

NYC
DC
LA
Philly
Dallas
Houston
Phoenix
Charlotte
Nashville
Pittsburgh

But geographic convenience is more than just finding the region's population center. The question is convenience for whom? Like it or not, corporate space decisions are based on the preferences of executive decisionmakers.

And executive decisionmakers, for the most part, live in Oakland County. That's why Oakland County, generally speaking, has a natural advantage in terms of corporate space decisions.

Take NYC. Why is Midtown Manhattan the nation's [[arguably the world's) premiere office district? Why are rents much higher than on Wall Street, for example? Becuase of convenience to the Upper East Side [[the richest NYC neighborhood), and because of Grand Central Terminal [[access to wealthiest suburbs).

[cmubryan]

***crickets

Isn't that the way most big cities are???? Most major cities are on water as that is how the original settlers arrived to the area and developed the city. Yes, I believe the population center of the metro area is around 10 Mile and Southfield Road in Southfield. I'm sure most major downtowns aren't in the middle of the population center. Think about the word "DOWNTOWN", it's called that for a reason.

[iheartthed]

I can think of relatively few downtowns hat aren't at the geographic heart of the region.

Most are, such as

NYC
DC
LA
Philly
Dallas
Houston
Phoenix
Charlotte
Nashville
Pittsburgh

But geographic convenience is more than just finding the region's population center. The question is convenience for whom? Like it or not, corporate space decisions are based on the preferences of executive decisionmakers.

And executive decisionmakers, for the most part, live in Oakland County. That's why Oakland County, generally speaking, has a natural advantage in terms of corporate space decisions.

Take NYC. Why is Midtown Manhattan the nation's [[arguably the world's) premiere office district? Why are rents much higher than on Wall Street, for example? Becuase of convenience to the Upper East Side [[the richest NYC neighborhood), and because of Grand Central Terminal [[access to wealthiest suburbs).

Well, I don't know what you consider geographic center, but LA and NYC aren't at the geographic center of their regions. And all the rest aren't built against a major water barrier. And I don't know what you're smoking if you think that being near the Upper East Side is why Midtown Manhattan is the premier central business district in the western world.

[Bham1982]

Well, I don't know what you consider geographic center, but LA and NYC aren't at the geographic center of their regions. .

They aren't? Sure seem pretty centralized to me. What would be the center of Greater NY if not Manhattan?

And I don't know what you're smoking if you think that being near the Upper East Side is why Midtown Manhattan is the premier central business district in the western world.

Almost everyone agrees that the desirability of Midtown stems from its access to top decisionmakers. Those decisionmakers are traditionally located on the Upper East Side, and to a certain extent in parts of Westchester County and Connecticut.

Now obviously wealth has dispersed somewhat, and there's money on the Upper West Side, Downtown, in NJ, on Long Island, etc., but the greatest conentration of decisionmakers is in direct proximity to Midtown, and specifically Midtown East.

You can even see this in action on a block-by-block level.

Midtown East has higher rents than Midtown West, because it's more conveneient to the Upper East Side and Grand Central.

And the highest rents of all are the part of Midtown East immediately adjacent [[walking distance) to the Upper East Side. The East 50's and low East 60's have the highest rents of all, and are dominated by hedge funds, venture capital firms and the like.

[Bham1982]

You can also see how corporate executives' residences influence corporate locational decisions in Metro Detroit.

When downtown was dominant, decisionmakers lived in NW Detroit, or to a lesser extent in Indian Village or Boston Edison.

Eventually, the Pointes became the top residendtial preference for decisionmakers. Not surprisingly, downtown maintained its dominance.

But in the 60's and 70's, wealth gradually shifted from the Pointes to certain communities in Oakland County. As this occured, downtown's locational advantage eroded.

Why did Chrysler choose Auburn Hills? The city is ugly, with poor schools and is basically an extension of Pontiac.

But Auburn Hills is next to Bloomfield Hills, and sits directly on I-75. 10-15 minute max commute for executives. Bob Eaton lived in Bloomfield Hills.

[iheartthed]

They aren't? Sure seem pretty centralized to me. What would be the center of Greater NY if not Manhattan?

The center of population in New York Metro is most likely somewhere in north east New Jersey.

Almost everyone agrees that the desirability of Midtown stems from its access to top decisionmakers. Those decisionmakers are traditionally located on the Upper East Side, and to a certain extent in parts of Westchester County and Connecticut.

Now obviously wealth has dispersed somewhat, and there's money on the Upper West Side, Downtown, in NJ, on Long Island, etc., but the greatest conentration of decisionmakers is in direct proximity to Midtown, and specifically Midtown East.

You can even see this in action on a block-by-block level.

Midtown East has higher rents than Midtown West, because it's more conveneient to the Upper East Side and Grand Central.

And the highest rents of all are the part of Midtown East immediately adjacent [[walking distance) to the Upper East Side. The East 50's and low East 60's have the highest rents of all, and are dominated by hedge funds, venture capital firms and the like.

This still doesn't explain why Midtown Manhattan is what it is. This just sounds like a real estate brochure.

[Bham1982]

This still doesn't explain why Midtown Manhattan is what it is. This just sounds like a real estate brochure.

It may not be correct practice, but it's generally agreed that corporations make HQ decisions based on the whims of top management.

IMO, Midtown derives its strength from its incredible accessibility [[subway, commuter rail, etc.) but specificifically its convenience to top decisionmakers.

Downtown Brooklyn, for example, has incredible accessibility too but isn't surrounded by the same sort of wealth [[though this is changing with rapid gentrification of surrounding neighborhoods). I speculate that as those adjacent neighborhoods gain more coporate decisionmakers, downtown Brooklyn will attract more HQ firms.

Or look at Chrysler, GM and Ford.

If Bob Eaton had lived in the Pointes, I think there's a good chance that Chrysler would be downtown or in Highland park.

If GM did not have a traditional orientation towards the Pointes, then there's a good chance it could have left for Oakland.

And the Southfield Freeway is absolutely key in the growth of Ford HQ. If you didn't have that vital link from Oakland County, there's a chance Ford could leave Dearborn.

[iheartthed]

It may not be correct practice, but it's generally agreed that corporations make HQ decisions based on the whims of top management.

IMO, Midtown derives its strength from its incredible accessibility [[subway, commuter rail, etc.)

Yes, and this is why Midtown has trumped lower Manhattan as the predominant business center. Midtown has both the largest subway hubs [[Times Square and Grand Central) as well as the largest commuter rail hubs [[Penn Station and Grand Central Station), in addition to being in close proximity to major East River and Hudson River crossings. The wealth of the Upper East Side is correlated to the strength of Midtown as a preeminent business center. But the concentration of wealth of the UES is not the cause of Midtown being a preeminent business center. If anything it's the reverse that is true.

[ScienceFair]

I just took a lunchtime stroll past the RenCen on the Riverwalk. Working in downtown Detroit does have its advantages.

[casscorridor]

Yes, and this is why Midtown has trumped lower Manhattan as the predominant business center. Midtown has both the largest subway hubs [[Times Square and Grand Central) as well as the largest commuter rail hubs [[Penn Station and Grand Central Station), in addition to being in close proximity to major East River and Hudson River crossings. The wealth of the Upper East Side is correlated to the strength of Midtown as a preeminent business center. But the concentration of wealth of the UES is not the cause of Midtown being a preeminent business center. If anything it's the reverse that is true.

Agreed, although Upper East Side was built as a rich area.

I think the relationship seems to be mutual, or at least interconnected. Midtown grew as a CBD while Upper East Side was being developed as an luxury neighborhood for the rich. It was quite desirable due to its proximity to Central Park, as well as its distance from the grittier areas Downtown such as the now gentrified "slums" of Bowery or present day Soho, once known as Hell's Hundred Acres.

Midtown with its larger area and a perfect grid of blocks and excellent location, near a concentration of transportation hubs, as you mentioned, facilitated the rapid growth in both offices and residences. So it was these factors, plus a general economic boom in the United States as a whole that made both Midtown and Upper East Side possible.

[gthomas]

I just took a lunchtime stroll past the RenCen on the Riverwalk. Working in downtown Detroit does have its advantages.

Yes! I agree..Its nothing compare to any suburbs. Theres alot of advantage here in the city if you look closely. Most people who beg differ probably dont know what it mean to live in a city or never been? You cant beat that location, and LOCATION is everything to be successful..When people come visit from out of town they dont want to go to a suburb. Most seek some city life or what is popular...?

[Gistok]

I can think of relatively few downtowns hat aren't at the geographic heart of the region.

Um.....

Toronto
Vancouver
Milwaukee
Cleveland
Boston
Miami
Providence
Buffalo
St. Louis
Memphis
San Diego
Honolulu
Long Beach

Downtown locations have everything to do with GEOGRAPHY... if the city is near a large body of water... the downtown will be near the water.

[Bham1982]

Um.....

Toronto
Vancouver
Milwaukee
Cleveland
Boston
Miami
Providence
Buffalo
St. Louis
Memphis
San Diego
Honolulu
Long Beach

We're talking about two totally different things.

I don't mean find the exact center of a given region. I'm talking about regional workforce accessibility.

Southfield is probably the closest thing to a business center of the region because it's the best location for workforce accessibility. Similarly, downtown Toronto is the center of its region becuase of workforce accessibility.

So why is downtown Toronto the center and downtown Detroit isn't?

First, elites live next to downtown Toronto. The wealth center of Toronto is along Yonge Street, just north of downtown. It would be like if Bloomfield Hills were located where Highland Park exists.

Second, greater Toronto is transit-oriented, which centers on downtown. Detroit isn't transit-oriented whatsoever, and the freeway network is centered really nowhere, but Southfield is a pretty good option.

And for many of the listed cities, they generally have the same problems as Detroit.

Ever been to downtown Memphis or St. Louis? Just smaller versions of Detroit.

The regional center has moved east of downtown Memphis [[freeway loop area) and west of downtown St. Louis [[Clayton area). These areas have the most office space and highest rents, and, not coincidentally, are very close to the wealthiest suburbs.

[Hypestyles]

...a good development-- hopefully the Blues can manage a charter school training students to enter the insurance field..

[gthomas]

We're talking about two totally different things.

I don't mean find the exact center of a given region. I'm talking about regional workforce accessibility.

Southfield is probably the closest thing to a business center of the region because it's the best location for workforce accessibility. Similarly, downtown Toronto is the center of its region becuase of workforce accessibility.

So why is downtown Toronto the center and downtown Detroit isn't?

First, elites live next to downtown Toronto. The wealth center of Toronto is along Yonge Street, just north of downtown. It would be like if Bloomfield Hills were located where Highland Park exists.

Second, greater Toronto is transit-oriented, which centers on downtown. Detroit isn't transit-oriented whatsoever, and the freeway network is centered really nowhere, but Southfield is a pretty good option.

And for many of the listed cities, they generally have the same problems as Detroit.

Ever been to downtown Memphis or St. Louis? Just smaller versions of Detroit.

The regional center has moved east of downtown Memphis [[freeway loop area) and west of downtown St. Louis [[Clayton area). These areas have the most office space and highest rents, and, not coincidentally, are very close to the wealthiest suburbs.

Ok, I what you saying BUT.... true about us not having transit or transit-oriented development? We will have it soon, as many know...down Woodward. So why not focus on moving toward that? Some are jumping on board...Compuware, BCBS, Quicken Loans and it entities, and many more following them...working toward creating that city we see most of. So yes, your right NOW but... for the region to grow and be progressive you have to keep and retain talent. Suburbs cant do that, Im sorry...

[p1acebo]

Ok, I what you saying BUT.... true about us not having transit or transit-oriented development? We will have it soon, as many know...down Woodward. So why not focus on moving toward that? Some are jumping on board...Compuware, BCBS, Quicken Loans and it entities, and many more following them...working toward creating that city we see most of. So yes, your right NOW but... for the region to grow and be progressive you have to keep and retain talent. Suburbs cant do that, Im sorry...

This, ultimately downtown Detroit has infinitely more potential than downtown Royal Oak ever well. It is just how it is, and I appreciate the trend to make downtown Detroit a better place.

[lincoln8740]

Some people wont be happy until Detroit is totally run into the ground and forgotten.

In its place; a cbd with an evocative name like Southfield will continue the hard earned right of people to trade in something old for something new; the planned obsolescence of urban planners. Like cars, and very much in the spirit of our time, any piece of property you leave behind will inevitably be worth a lot less than the one you are aiming for. The gluttony for land, the futility of industrial success and its following demise will lead us full circle to a time when the First People had yet to observe the destructive effects of ownership. But that will take many moons.

Please let me hit that joint!! Please!!!

[gthomas]

Please let me hit that joint!! Please!!!

LMAO! I know right! But he makes a great point. People in this region just dont like for Detroit to progress, is it a crime.? Its ASHAME, thats what it is..Its feels like ...JEALOUSY, knowing the POTENTIAL this city can be and truthfully I feel that they will be left out the spotlight? Is our region fighting over who/what is most popular in lifestyle living.. rather using what we have and build later? Its that why we have EXPANDING suburbs in the middle of nowhere...and people complain about gas, insurance, tax...OH give me a break..who told you to live in a swamp..? We LOVE our cars, but failed to be diverse in that aspect in transit option..is that the case? WE ARE GREEDY...?

[gthomas]

This, ultimately downtown Detroit has infinitely more potential than downtown Royal Oak ever well. It is just how it is, and I appreciate the trend to make downtown Detroit a better place.

It make sense...but I see sense is not COMMON in Metro Detroit...Clearly DOWNTOWN DETROIT "IS" the best than any...so serious. And seeing steady GREAT progress happening everyday looking out my bedroom window. Waking up, seeing the sun rise above the International border...watching GM rencen twinkle from a cold nap. Watchn movers and shakers gather in one geographic area everyday, trying to change the landscape of downtown detroit and the city in general..to what is use to be and CAN become.