Could Borders move to Detroit?

[szla]

Or they could use the stores left to facilitate a rapid groupon type store. A place where you procur your discounts for everything. A place where you rent the downloaded book for your Kindle or Ipad for say- two weeks at a price much less than buying it. And it disappears from your pad memory two weeks later. And you sit in their nice chairs and read and talk. And they're all about the size of a small Walgreens.

[Red Devil]

Or they could use the stores left to facilitate a rapid groupon type store. A place where you procur your discounts for everything. A place where you rent the downloaded book for your Kindle or Ipad for say- two weeks at a price much less than buying it. And it disappears from your pad memory two weeks later. And you sit in their nice chairs and read and talk. And they're all about the size of a small Walgreens.

This is a pretty good idea. The price of the Kindle will continue to drop and Amazon will probably be giving them away in the near future. If you have the time, I would act on this

[Red Devil]

Check these out:
http://www.gutenberg.org/
http://www.scribd.com/
http://www.wepapers.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/texts/

Great links - thanks for posting

[ghettopalmetto]

I can put any PDF or MOBI on my Kindle I wish. Just upload it via USB. I can download PDFs from stores other than Amazon.

This leads me to believe you don't really understand how computers work. You can get *anything* on the internet, if you know how to find it. Bans, firewalls, domain seizures - it's all academic. There are ways around everything.

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

[Red Devil]

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

If someone relies on corporate media sources to get all of their news, music, reading material, etc. then they are a lost cause to begin with. Thanks to the internet you can publish and read whatever you want.

[detmsp]

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

Uh.... What?! You're seriously suggesting that being able to download any damn movie, book, song, etc that I want gives companies like Apple and Wal-Mart more control than if I had to buy those items on cd/DVD/paperback in an Apple or Wal-Mart store?

You have it completely backwards! If I turn in the radio, clear channel picks the music I hear. If I go to Wal-Mart, they [[along with record companies) choose the music I can buy. If I go online... Well then I can get anything I darn well please and I can get it for free. maybe you should read up on how well the MPAA and RIAA efforts to control online music/movie distribution are going. They are spending millions and millions of dollars and are failing miserably.

[alsodave]

BookBeat in Oak Park has the kind of selection/atmosphere/knowledgable staff that Borders *used* to be known for.

[iheartthed]

Wasn't GM forced to stay in Detroit during the bankruptcy?

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/...7170958444.txt

I guess. But wasn't that more about a suburban mayor trying to lure them away?

[ghettopalmetto]

Uh.... What?! You're seriously suggesting that being able to download any damn movie, book, song, etc that I want gives companies like Apple and Wal-Mart more control than if I had to buy those items on cd/DVD/paperback in an Apple or Wal-Mart store?

You have it completely backwards! If I turn in the radio, clear channel picks the music I hear. If I go to Wal-Mart, they [[along with record companies) choose the music I can buy. If I go online... Well then I can get anything I darn well please and I can get it for free. maybe you should read up on how well the MPAA and RIAA efforts to control online music/movie distribution are going. They are spending millions and millions of dollars and are failing miserably.

Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

[bailey]

Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

That completely makes no sense. It wasn't Apple stopping anyone from hearing the Beatles it was the entities that held the rights to the Beatles catalog. So basically the exact opposite of what you're claiming the problem is. I mean hell it had more to do with the Apple brands fighting out over copyrights than anything. But yea, I guess I could have gone to Borders in the interim and paid $32.00 for one CD...in 2008. Or, just download from a number of other sources...which, for those songs I wanted, I did.

[bailey]

Not sure what mall occupancy rates have to do with the price of tea in China... But yeah, I guess those thousands of people who work in that HQ.

Point being, they're there by default and not design. They're there because they sunk an astronomical sum into being a real estate developer of a vanity project a small group of influential C-suite execs wanted, instead of concentrating on being a decent car maker. And clearly, they are there regardless of the desires of the thousands that work there as they can't seem to be bothered to stay or shop, or even eat in their own damn building.

[iheartthed]

Point being, they're there by default and not design. They're there because they sunk an astronomical sum into being a real estate developer of a vanity project a small group of influential C-suite execs wanted, instead of concentrating on being a decent car maker. And clearly, they are there regardless of the desires of the thousands that work there as they can't seem to be bothered to stay or shop, or even eat in their own damn building.

Still don't see what this has to do with the ability of Detroit to host a corporate HQ.

But while we're on this tangent, if it's of any worth to you I work in an area that is surrounded by hundreds of stores that I never shop at. As soon as I'm done with work I usually leave my office building and never return until I'm scheduled to do more work. So not sure that the weight of the world should be placed on GM employees shoulders because some stores can't survive in the promenade of the Ren Cen. And the design flaws of the Ren Cen, and why it's an unattractive location for retail [[besides just being located in Detroit), has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

[bailey]

Still don't see what this has to do with the ability of Detroit to host a corporate HQ.

But while we're on this tangent, if it's of any worth to you I work in an area that is surrounded by hundreds of stores that I never shop at. As soon as I'm done with work I usually leave my office building and never return until I'm scheduled to do more work. So not sure that the weight of the world should be placed on GM employees shoulders because some stores can't survive in the promenade of the Ren Cen. And the design flaws of the Ren Cen, and why it's an unattractive location for retail [[besides just being located in Detroit), has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

Well, it goes back to Keilson's point. Is GM there because they can write their own ticket and simple inertia or because Detroit is such a draw for a corp HQ? Think a failing, soon to be completlely defunct and sold off for parts buggy whip seller will carry the same weight around CAYMC when they need a permit or a tax break or a street closed?

Further, isn't there more to hosting an HQ than simply providing tax breaks. The discussion was about the costs shifted to employees. And if you don't shop near your office, I'm betting you do actually live in the same city in which you work. I going to also guess you don't own a car.

As far as the rencen goes...fine... it's empty because it sucks as mall.... but what is lower woodward's excuse?

Actually, this is a serious question, is there any large business HQ'd in detroit that is there now because it makes business sense or is it there because they have a)been there since founding 50 yrs+ ago [[your GMs, BigLaws...etc) , or b) as some sort of public corporate philanthropy? [[Olympia, Ceasars, Compuware....etc.)

I just looked at the top employers in Detroit, DPS with 13,0000+ dwarfs the presences of the HQ of GM at 4500 ish. and chrysler of all things employes just as many in Detroit as GM. The top 20 employers in Detroit are almost exclusively public sector. DPs, CoD, various health systems, WSU, wayne county, BCBS..etc Hell, MGM grand claims almost as many employees at GM does.

[iheartthed]

Well, it goes back to Keilson's point. Is GM there because they can write their own ticket and simple inertia or because Detroit is such a draw for a corp HQ? Think a failing, soon to be completlely defunct and sold off for parts buggy whip seller will carry the same weight around CAYMC when they need a permit or a tax break or a street closed?

Further, isn't there more to hosting an HQ than simply providing tax breaks. The discussion was about the costs shifted to employees. And if you don't shop near your office, I'm betting you do actually live in the same city in which you work. I going to also guess you don't own a car.

As far as the rencen goes...fine... it's empty because it sucks as mall.... but what is lower woodward's excuse?

Actually, this is a serious question, is there any large business HQ'd in detroit that was there because it made business sense or is it there because they have a)been there since founding 50 yrs+ ago [[your GMs, BigLaws...etc) , or b) as some sort of public corporate philanthropy? [[Olympia, Ceasars, Compuware....etc.)

I just looked at the top employers in Detroit, DPS with 13,0000+ dwarfs the presences of the HQ of GM at 4500 ish. and chrysler of all things employes just as many in Detroit as GM. The top 20 employers in Detroit are almost exclusively public sector. DPs, CoD, various health systems, WSU, wayne county, BCBS..etc Hell, MGM grand claims almost as many employees at GM does.

Well, my point was that Detroit can host a corporate HQ -- and already does host quite a few of them -- so that person's point about Detroit not being "ready for the big leagues" was not supported by reality. And on a personal note, I think Detroit would bend over backwards to have a nationally recognized name like Borders. [[They went through quite a bit of dancing just to get a Borders store put downtown.) If Borders does survive, having such a well known name operating from a Detroit address will be worth something. On name recognition alone, I'd guess that Borders would be worth more to the city than a Compuware or Quicken.

And I don't think what you call "corporate philanthropy" is as altruistic as you make it seem. First, those companies were lured back to the city by generous tax incentives. Second, some see value in being perceived as a trendsetter [[see Conde Nast and their reputation as the saviors of Times Square), or at the forefront of a generational change [[see all of the companies who followed Conde Nast to Times Square).

But let's make a distinction here: a company in the market for a suburban office complex is probably not considering a city like Detroit, or Boston, or Chicago. On the other hand, a company that is looking for a big city address is probably not considering Michigan period.

Also, most large companies are located where they are because of legacy. Once a company in any city matures past a certain point it can operate from pretty much anywhere. My personal ideology is that cities should act as the incubators to start and grow businesses and not try to play corporate Monopoly to build an economy by poaching companies from other cities and states. Historically entrepreneurial cities, like Detroit, that destroy the environments that once made them entrepreneurial havens tend to have trouble transitioning their economies once the dominant industry matures and the growth stagnates.

[Jason]

That's terrific. And as easy as it is to make something available in electronic format, it's even easier for the controllers of that media to make it UNavailable to you. Your gizmo might be high-tech, but it ain't gonna keep a publisher from deciding what you're allowed to read. Don't believe me? Tell me Clear Channel [[and Apple and Walmart) aren't already deciding what music you can hear.

This isn't about being "modern" or "high tech" or "cost effective" or any other marketing bullshit--it's about the control of ideas, and you've bought into the Machine hook, line, and sinker. Censorship is something where there *is* no easy way around.

I can make a .pdf book myself and there are a lot of places where I could host the file for free, or I could buy my own hosting and host it myself. One person can make something, and anyone who's connected to the internet can download it.

But if I want to get something published as a physical book, then I need to submit my book to publishers, pray that they accept it [[which 99% of the time they don't), and then even if they do accept it, I have to sign a lot of contracts and stuff that limits my ownership or ability to do what I want with what I created. Then after I've won my battle with the publisher I have to hope that enough stores decide to carry the book, and then I have to hope that the general public [[the store goers) have interest in what I wrote.

Or I can make the book by myself on my computer, host it somewhere online, have complete ownership of it, and I can skip the corporate publishers and the corporate book stores. Not only that but I'll have potential exposure to all of the internet, which would make it easier to target my niche audience.

[detmsp]

Sure, whatever you say. Remind me how long it took Apple to get the fucking BEATLES on iTunes?

Didn't stop me and the rest of the world from downloading every beatles album years before it was on iTunes. I don't think you understand the way the Internet has democratized information. People can share literally ANY information they damn well please. For stores to be on par with the web, I'd have to be able to walk into a store and instantly be able to find any book, movie or albom on the face of the planet that I want. That simply is not the case.

The times they are a changin'... it's about time you embraced it.

[Fnemecek]

I can make a .pdf book myself and there are a lot of places where I could host the file for free, or I could buy my own hosting and host it myself. One person can make something, and anyone who's connected to the internet can download it.

Hosting the file is only one issue. If you want to make any money from your work, you also have to figure out a way for people to pay for it. That's still doable, but it does get more complicated.

But if I want to get something published as a physical book, then I need to submit my book to publishers, pray that they accept it [[which 99% of the time they don't), and then even if they do accept it, I have to sign a lot of contracts and stuff that limits my ownership or ability to do what I want with what I created. Then after I've won my battle with the publisher I have to hope that enough stores decide to carry the book, and then I have to hope that the general public [[the store goers) have interest in what I wrote.

First, life is filled with compromises. Publishing is no different in that regard.

Second, as someone who has signed one of those contracts, the restrictions are not that ownerous. The publisher generally only buys the rights to publish the book for a certain number of years. At the end of that contract, the author is free to publish the book elsewhere.

Sometimes they buy domestic rights only, leaving the author free to pursue international sales independantly. Other times, they buy worlwide rights.

Other non-publishing rights to a book [[e.g., film and television books) are generally not included in a publishing contract.

Or I can make the book by myself on my computer, host it somewhere online, have complete ownership of it, and I can skip the corporate publishers and the corporate book stores. Not only that but I'll have potential exposure to all of the internet, which would make it easier to target my niche audience.

Been there. Done that.

There are two challenges to such a strategy.

First, in a world where everyone is published, the market is quickly overwhelmed. With the internet, where books written more than 100 years ago are available for free, the competition for buyers is that much more intense and the options can become that much more overwhelming for readers.

Second, if I as an author am out there reaching out to my target niche all day long then I'm not writing my next book. Authors need to write. The more time we're out there peddling our creations, the less time we have to do the thing we're best at.

[Fnemecek]

Didn't stop me and the rest of the world from downloading every beatles album years before it was on iTunes. I don't think you understand the way the Internet has democratized information. People can share literally ANY information they damn well please. For stores to be on par with the web, I'd have to be able to walk into a store and instantly be able to find any book, movie or albom on the face of the planet that I want. That simply is not the case.

First, when the sharing of any information [[books, songs, videos, etc.) happens without any restrictions, it has another name to it. It's called piracy. The people who created those books, songs, and videos can't continue to create when it flows that freely.

Second, in order for physical stores to compare with mainstream on-line retailers [[Amazon.com and the others), it would be a matter of you being able to walk into a store, instantly place your order, and then wait anywhere from 1 - 5 days for your book to be delivered. Unless, of course, you want to download it onto a pre-approved device, in which case you get the immediate download.

Electronic files, however, cannot be autographed by an author and it's doubtful that they could be passed from generation to the next.

[stasu1213]

Borders HQ could move into that mirrored panelled building that sits in front of the guardian building on the Woodward side. 1001 Woodward would also be a nice place for it with a bookstore in the foyer area.

[detmsp]

First, when the sharing of any information [[books, songs, videos, etc.) happens without any restrictions, it has another name to it. It's called piracy. The people who created those books, songs, and videos can't continue to create when it flows that freely.

Second, in order for physical stores to compare with mainstream on-line retailers [[Amazon.com and the others), it would be a matter of you being able to walk into a store, instantly place your order, and then wait anywhere from 1 - 5 days for your book to be delivered. Unless, of course, you want to download it onto a pre-approved device, in which case you get the immediate download.

Electronic files, however, cannot be autographed by an author and it's doubtful that they could be passed from generation to the next.

That all may be true, but my post was in response to the assertion that the Internet and devices like iPads limit access to media and increase the ability of corporations to censor media. I think we can both agree that that simply isn't the case.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

[Fnemecek]

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

[mwilbert]

Borders may want to keep the majority of its stores open, but I doubt they will be able to do so for long.

See for instance this story from Wednesday:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/07/bu...ders.html?_r=1

An excerpt:

Borders presented a restructuring plan to its creditors on Wednesday that promised publishers and landlords a sleeker, more efficient company poised to emerge successfully from bankruptcy through increased online sales and revamped stores.

But publishers characterized the plan as unrealistic and said they were more convinced than ever that Borders would be forced to sell itself or liquidate.

If the publishers don't believe the plan will work, they won't ship books to Borders [[except for cash, but the economics of that aren't too promising when their competitors are getting credit from the publishers), and that will be the end.

[detmsp]

First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

Ebooks will replace traditional publishing, there is absolutely no doubt about that. Book stores won't completely disappear, but they will have to evolve and offer more than simply a place to buy the latest New York Times bestseller. They'll need to provide an experience, not just books. Thats why a place like King will stay in business but Walden Books is already gone

[belleislerunner]

Tuesday's Dearborn Press & Guide had a line that Border's was planning on relocating to downtown Detroit.

In February, the Ann Arbor-based Borders Group, Inc. — which announced plans on relocating its headquarters to downtown Detroit earlier this month — filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The 40-year-old book-seller has $1.275 billion in assets and $1.293 billion in debts. Further, it has lost $605 million in the last four fiscal years.

Does anyone have any insider information in the past few days that a downtown Detroit move is in fact true [[as opposed to just shopping for space) or is this just sloppy journalism?

http://www.pressandguide.com/article...2553885817.txt