Light rail produces a burst of development, but not everywhere

[EL Jimbo]

Yep, either downtown Royal Oak or downtown Birmingham or perhaps the Birmingham Transit Center. Those are the only three places that make any sense.

I'd like to see a stop at Woodward and 10 mile for the Zoo, then have the route turn up Main St. in Royal Oak and have a stop at Main and 4th Street in downtown Royal Oak [[which would be a great spot to connect with the commuter rail line I'd love to see running between Detroit and Flint with stops in Pontiac, Birmingham, and Royal Oak). Then the route would turn at 11 mile and come back to Woodward where it would have its northern terminus in Birmingham.

[mwilbert]

I think a strong case could be made for going to 9 mile; Ferndale is walkable already, there are a number of potential destinations, and it shouldn't cost that much. It would be useful to go on to Royal Oak, but I expect that dealing with the mess at Woodward and 696 would have to be expensive, along with making it safe for kids to get from the train to the zoo.

[iheartthed]

Thank you for pointing this out. I keep reading all of these light rail threads where people propose that light rail go all the way to places like Ypsilanti, Pontiac, and Mt. Clemens. Those are ridiculous distances for light rail, which is an urban transit vehicle. It does short-to-medium runs at a fast pace on a predictable schedule. If people want to be connected with places like Ypsi/Ann Arbor, Pontiac, and Mt. Clemens, we need commuter rail with only a few key stops, not light rail. God help us if any rail goes to Novi. Woof.

I think it's just a misunderstanding that those people have with how these systems work. Going to Farmington from downtown Detroit is a 30-40 minute drive with no traffic in a car on the freeway. It would take a light rail street car several hours to make that trip. Those distances are much better served by commuter rail, and commuter rail stations are more suitable to serving moderate density suburbs like Farmington.

[mwilbert]

I think it's just a misunderstanding that those people have with how these systems work. Going to Farmington from downtown Detroit is a 30-40 minute drive with no traffic in a car on the freeway. It would take a light rail street car several hours to make that trip. Those distances are much better served by commuter rail, and commuter rail stations are more suitable to serving moderate density suburbs like Farmington.

I agree with the sentiment, but it shouldn't take "several hours". It's only a little over 20 miles down Grand River, two hours should cover it easily.

[DetroitPlanner]

The zoo doesn't make a lot of sense as a terminating point. It would be a good thing to connect to the system, but I don't think it's much of a destination volume wise. Ideally you end transit lines at big destinations, to help maximize ridership on the entire length of the line. Downtown Royal Oak would be a great place to end the line.

I'd have to disagree with you here. The zoo is a major attraction and attract families travelling and staying in downtown hotels who do not have a car. A lot more people visit the Zoo than any of the museums. Just because you don't go to it don't mean is sits empty. I don't go to the Gibraltar Trade Center but know lots of people do by just looking at its parking lot [[once was enough for me).

[ghettopalmetto]

Capacity on light rail:

Attachment 9258

That's a streetcar there, buddy. Not quite light rail.

[iheartthed]

I agree with the sentiment, but it shouldn't take "several hours". It's only a little over 20 miles down Grand River, two hours should cover it easily.

It's twenty miles of stopping every half mile and being impeded by cross traffic, since this isn't a grade separated system. The A line of the New York City subway is roughly 20 miles in length, express for much of its run, and is also completely grade separated, yet it still takes about 2 hours from end to end. So there is no way that this light rail line makes it back and forth to Farmington in the same amount of time.

[EL Jimbo]

I agree with the sentiment, but it shouldn't take "several hours". It's only a little over 20 miles down Grand River, two hours should cover it easily.

Not necessarily. There are models of light rail like the Siemans S70 series that have top speeds up to 66 miles per hour. That's a travel time of about 30 minutes. Throw in a maximum of 20 stops [[one every mile as is typically recommended for light rail) and assume approximately 1 minute of time for each stop and that means you could ride Grand River Ave light rail from downtown Farmington to the intersection of Grand River Ave and Woodward in approximately 50 minutes.

[EL Jimbo]

It's twenty miles of stopping every half mile and being impeded by cross traffic, since this isn't a grade separated system. The A line of the New York City subway is roughly 20 miles in length, express for much of its run, and is also completely grade separated, yet it still takes about 2 hours from end to end. So there is no way that this light rail line makes it back and forth to Farmington in the same amount of time.

Too many stops. One mile stops are better. Some studies have shown that people are willing to walk up to a half mile to get to light rail transit. Therefore if you space transit stops one mile apart, you will have maximum efficiency for each stop.

[EL Jimbo]

I'd have to disagree with you here. The zoo is a major attraction and attract families travelling and staying in downtown hotels who do not have a car. A lot more people visit the Zoo than any of the museums. Just because you don't go to it don't mean is sits empty. I don't go to the Gibraltar Trade Center but know lots of people do by just looking at its parking lot [[once was enough for me).

I see your point, but I think you missed jason's point. I don't think he was arguing against a zoo stop. What he was saying is that the zoo shouldn't be the end of the line for light rail.

[mwilbert]

Not necessarily. There are models of light rail like the Siemans S70 series that have top speeds up to 66 miles per hour. That's a travel time of about 30 minutes. Throw in a maximum of 20 stops [[one every mile as is typically recommended for light rail) and assume approximately 1 minute of time for each stop and that means you could ride Grand River Ave light rail from downtown Farmington to the intersection of Grand River Ave and Woodward in approximately 50 minute

I don't think you can run at anything like those speeds along a non-grade-separated route. It isn't safe. You also aren't accounting for acceleration/deceleration.

[EL Jimbo]

I don't think you can run at anything like those speeds along a non-grade-separated route. It isn't safe. You also aren't accounting for acceleration/deceleration.

You are probably right. However, your two hour time frame is still WAY off. Houston's METROrail uses the Siemans S70 for their at grade light rail system. That line cover 7.1 miles and 16 stops in 30 minutes. At the same pace, at Detroit-Farmington line on Grand River would need less than 90 minutes one way. However, I don't think a Grand River line would need nearly as many stops per mile as the METROrail so that would probably reduce travel times further. My guess is that a similar type of system could cover the entire 20 mile distance in about 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 minutes.

[iheartthed]

Too many stops. One mile stops are better. Some studies have shown that people are willing to walk up to a half mile to get to light rail transit. Therefore if you space transit stops one mile apart, you will have maximum efficiency for each stop.

One mile stops may work once you get out of the city, but that's not feasible below 8 Mile. And I'm not sure it's even worth running the line out to Farmington just to have stops placed a mile apart. So I'll say again that Farmington would be better served by commuter rail.

[bailey]

It's twenty miles of stopping every half mile and being impeded by cross traffic, since this isn't a grade separated system. The A line of the New York City subway is roughly 20 miles in length, express for much of its run, and is also completely grade separated, yet it still takes about 2 hours from end to end. So there is no way that this light rail line makes it back and forth to Farmington in the same amount of time.

I haven't been following the developments of the town halls on M1 rail that have been going on but are they still serious about running this in traffic at the curb?

[mwilbert]

You are probably right. However, your two hour time frame is still WAY off. Houston's METROrail uses the Siemans S70 for their at grade light rail system. That line cover 7.1 miles and 16 stops in 30 minutes. At the same pace, at Detroit-Farmington line on Grand River would need less than 90 minutes one way. However, I don't think a Grand River line would need nearly as many stops per mile as the METROrail so that would probably reduce travel times further. My guess is that a similar type of system could cover the entire 20 mile distance in about 1 hour to 1 hour and 15 minutes.

I wasn't claiming it would take two hours. I was claiming it should "easily" make it in two hours. I don't know exactly how long, but an hour and a half seems entirely reasonable. I still don't think there is much reason to do it. As I mentioned earlier, if I were going to run another 20 miles of rail, I'd run it in places with more density and with shorter trip times to downtown.

[mwilbert]

I haven't been following the developments of the town halls on M1 rail that have been going on but are they still serious about running this in traffic at the curb?

The public comment period is over and there are supposed to be responses to the comments in May. I don't think there will be any announced decision on the alignment until then or later.

[j to the jeremy]

I haven't been following the developments of the town halls on M1 rail that have been going on but are they still serious about running this in traffic at the curb?

No. DDOT never wanted to do this, and made sure to note the benefits of center-running options in the DEIS. . Almost all of the public comments on the statement supported the center-running setup, and I would hope that they listened to those comments. They are well aware of all the issues with side-running rail but the businessmen wanted side-running so it had to be an option in the process.

[bailey]

No. DDOT never wanted to do this, and made sure to note the benefits of center-running options in the DEIS. . Almost all of the public comments on the statement supported the center-running setup, and I would hope that they listened to those comments. They are well aware of all the issues with side-running rail but the businessmen wanted side-running so it had to be an option in the process.

Call me a cynic, but as there won't be a rail on Woodward without the private dollars, I'm guessing we'll be seeing it running curbside in traffic if that is what the private money wants it to do. [[why they'd want that is beyond me...but whatever)

[esp1986]

Call me a cynic, but as there won't be a rail on Woodward without the private dollars, I'm guessing we'll be seeing it running curbside in traffic if that is what the private money wants it to do. [[why they'd want that is beyond me...but whatever)

Not only running in traffic, but having to contend with the people that pull over to the curb to drop someone off, turn, etc. Back in the days of the trolley lines, it ran in the middle of the road, I see no reason it shouldn't do the same today. You just know some idiot is going to try and park curbside on the tracks and the whole line will be held up. Even for just 20 minutes while they call a tow-truck is a loss.

[j to the jeremy]

Call me a cynic, but as there won't be a rail on Woodward without the private dollars, I'm guessing we'll be seeing it running curbside in traffic if that is what the private money wants it to do. [[why they'd want that is beyond me...but whatever)

Nope, not happening. The private money is already being committed as part of the federal process which either party would have to go through anyways. Whatever layout is picked from the DEIS, [[probably the center-running) they have to go with.

And the reason they wanted side running south of the Blvd, was so that there would be loads of stops at all their attractions downtown. [[even though that's what the people mover's for)

[EL Jimbo]

One mile stops may work once you get out of the city, but that's not feasible below 8 Mile. And I'm not sure it's even worth running the line out to Farmington just to have stops placed a mile apart. So I'll say again that Farmington would be better served by commuter rail.

Considering what is there, one mile between stops won't work in the city, at least on Woodward. The DTOGS proposal for light rail on woodward that runs from GCP to the Fairgrounds would run 8 miles and have 12 stops. with an average distance between stops of 3/4 of a mile.

I think you could, however, average about 1 mile between stops On Grand River In the city limits. In fact, here is an example of one. Let's say you had a line that started at Grand River and Telegraph and ended at Grand River and Washington. That's a distance of 13 miles. Here would be my proposed stops

-Telegraph
-Lahser
-Evergreen
-Fenkell
-Greenfield
-Schoolcraft
-Fullerton & Meyers
-Oakman
-Livernois
-Joy
-W Grand
-14th
-Motor City Casino
-Washington

As far as Farmington, Is it worthwhile to do? I don't know. However, my point is that I don't think Farmington is too far out to be services by light rail if it were deemed necessary.

[Russix]

Considering what is there, one mile between stops won't work in the city, at least on Woodward. The DTOGS proposal for light rail on woodward that runs from GCP to the Fairgrounds would run 8 miles and have 12 stops. with an average distance between stops of 3/4 of a mile.

I think you could, however, average about 1 mile between stops On Grand River In the city limits. In fact, here is an example of one. Let's say you had a line that started at Grand River and Telegraph and ended at Grand River and Washington. That's a distance of 13 miles. Here would be my proposed stops

-Telegraph
-Lahser
-Evergreen
-Fenkell
-Greenfield
-Schoolcraft
-Fullerton & Meyers
-Oakman
-Livernois
-Joy
-W Grand
-14th
-Motor City Casino
-Washington

As far as Farmington, Is it worthwhile to do? I don't know. However, my point is that I don't think Farmington is too far out to be services by light rail if it were deemed necessary.

I'd replace 14th with Warren and add another stop at Trumbull/MLK

The 305 use to make it from Grand River and Haggerty to Downtown in under hour in the evening. Does Farmington need light rail stops every mile through the city? Probably not. If it split to follow M-5, you could put a stop at West River, one at Farmington Rd to serve downtown, another at Grand River/Halstead, and one more at Novi Rd/I-96 for commuters or local bus routes to feed into. This is how they do subway stops in the suburbs in Chicago where there is no real density they use their seas of parking\feeder buses to feed into the system for commuters. A good example would be the Rosemont station on the Blue Line in Chicago. http://www.transitchicago.com/travel...spx?StopId=123

[Detroitnerd]

Considering what is there, one mile between stops won't work in the city, at least on Woodward. The DTOGS proposal for light rail on woodward that runs from GCP to the Fairgrounds would run 8 miles and have 12 stops. with an average distance between stops of 3/4 of a mile.

I think you could, however, average about 1 mile between stops On Grand River In the city limits. In fact, here is an example of one. Let's say you had a line that started at Grand River and Telegraph and ended at Grand River and Washington. That's a distance of 13 miles. Here would be my proposed stops

-Telegraph
-Lahser
-Evergreen
-Fenkell
-Greenfield
-Schoolcraft
-Fullerton & Meyers
-Oakman
-Livernois
-Joy
-W Grand
-14th
-Motor City Casino
-Washington

As far as Farmington, Is it worthwhile to do? I don't know. However, my point is that I don't think Farmington is too far out to be services by light rail if it were deemed necessary.

The only way I could see to serve someplace as far out as Farmington is by commuter rail. Frankly, I-96 is never clogged, always super-speedy, has its own express lanes. If we have a real, growing center downtown, then there's a likely argument for commuter rail to link Farm/Novi with downtown, at speeds and comfort levels comparable to I-96, without the parking.

Also, Farmington is not well set up to benefit from light rail in the first place; sure, it has a few nodes of density, but it's very car-oriented. Better to have a park-and-ride station there.

[Detroitnerd]

I think the point is, let's let the system grow to where there is already density first. One of the worst things we could do is cripple it by having too many stops downtown or by trying to extend it out where there is no density.

I guess in the old days, the interurban ran up Main Street in Royal Oak and then took a right at that little cemetery and went on to Rochester. At the time, the interurban was the fastest way to get around within metro Detroit, though, unless you were on a railroad or a hot air balloon.

[Russix]

...
One interesting thing is that DDOT, which runs the Woodward bus every 8 minutes most of the day, apparently only plans to run light rail on a 15 minute schedule. Now, if you're at [[say) 7 Mile Road waiting to go downtown and a bus comes, do you get on the bus or wait for the train?
...

Faster to wait for the train, 1/2 hour by train, hour by local bus. So if you just missed the train, 45 min at the most.