Lower Wooward Concept Retail Plans

[coracle]

What a crazy idea. Lose 25% of the potential customers in 10 years with all indications that the trend isn't over, and then open up a shopping center a to serve the diminishing customer base.

[wolverine]

What makes this different from Northland, Fairlane, Somerset, Oakland, Fountainwalk, 12 Oaks, or any of the other big malls/chain store strip malls anywhere in the burbs? Or for that matter, anywhere in the US. I feel like everywhere I go I see nothing but Express outlet stores, WalMarts and Cheesecake Factories. Areas that are clones of one another. Total boring nothingness. Why do I always have to have the same ten retailers shoved in my face when I go shopping?

Corporations gave up on Detroit a long time ago and they're not gonna flock back en masse in the way you're proposing. We need to rebuild from the ground up, with home-grown entrepreneurs and locally-owned businesses. A chain anchor here or there is not bad. But I would hate to see Merchant's Row turn into an outdoor Great Lakes Crossing. Ugh...

Eh, you get used to them being shoved in your face. Maybe I'd tend to agree with you personally, but for the rest of the population, the chain stores are exactly what they want, and tend to be the most desirable high rent neighborhoods. It's what attracts new residents to the city.

If you look at most cities, the chains exist within the downtown core, with a mixture of national chains and local businesses in the neighborhoods. That's what really makes neighborhoods so unique and destination locations. Downtown doesn't have to be "cool and trendy," it just needs to be a great place for companies to do business, supply office workers and residents with basic needs, and become a convenient location to shop at well recognized retail chains.

[gthomas]

THANK YOU!!!!! WOLERINE! You get it..thats my whole point!!! CLARITY

[canuck]

This is actually a pretty good thread gthomas and it is your can-do spirit that defies a lot of the despondency Detroiters have experienced. Detroit's metro is rich and powerful, it has the wealth to spread and insteadof shopping for luxury in Chicago and New York, they should spend more in a revamped downtown. There has to be a way to push the owners of major properties in the CBD to create an inspiring city. gthomas has that fearless vision, and this is the kind of power that made Detroit a powerhouse in the early 1900's.

[gthomas]

WOW!! thanx CANUCK!!! I really want to provide solution and hope to what we already have. SUPPORT DETROIT! Im living what most want to experience as a successful Detroiter. I am that and my vision is not allowing me to stop persuing a GREATER DETROIT. Detroiters deserve better...I will voice my opinion till it gets done.

[ghettopalmetto]

I hate to be the curmudgeon that pisses on everyone's parade, but there's a reason there isn't chain retail downtown right now.

Back in the late 1970s, the Renaissance Center was filled with high-end retail shops. Washington Boulevard was filled with high-end retail before that. What happened? The residents and jobs necessary for those businesses to remain profitable moved to the suburbs. Now, you have Somerset in Troy.

You can open all the chain stores you want. It won't mean a damn if they can't make money in that location. And if they *could* make money in downtown Detroit, they'd have opened up shop already.

I'd rather see businesses succeed than to chase some magical cachet and *hope* that things turn out for the best. Present-day Detroit is the manifestation of redevelopment-through-hope. Hope and optimism are great things, but let's get some dollars flowing.

[canuck]

yeah g, you got it; the motto is Detroiters deserve better. They certainly dont deserve less. For better or for worse, Detroit has given the world individual car mobility. It has contributed a lot. It's easy to forget that, but it should be hailed as such, because at the end of the day, most of us drive our individual cars and like it. I dont know how long that lifestyle is meant to last but it is there now in no small part because pioneering Detroiters made it happen. If it was possible a hundred years a go, it is possible now.

[fryar]

I don't lose any sleep over whether Old Navy is coming to town. In my conception of things, they don't come to town until long after the Vicentes of the world have pulled Detroit up by their bootstraps. We're a long way off from Old Navy and Linens & Things displacing a used book store. Let them worry about that in New York. Detroit can worry about that 30 years from now.

So in my conception of things, you're barking up the wrong tree when bringing up chain stores. They would be here already if they had any interest.

You need to get Vicente to open up another place somewhere further up Woodward, or get the next Vicente to open up shop.

San Francisco seems to have a pretty good handle on the chain store issue, as I mentioned a while back. Might be worth referring to, 30 years from now.

[jtf1972]

Not everything needs to be about creating things for suburban dwellers to venture into the city for.
Detroit is a city that still has over 700,000 residents.

It is still the 18th most populous city in the nation.

Much smaller cities have plenty of options for shopping. I have never seen another as barren as Detroit, when it comes to what should be a simple task: spending money!

If a significant amount of Detroiters would keep their money in the city, spending it where they live, it would be an incentive for more investment in the city. As it is, there is far too much money leaving the city. Companies are profit driven. Why should they feel any need to invest in a community if that community spends its money to come to them? When a store comes to Detroit, Detroiters should spend their money there instead of traveling to the suburbs. This is the case even if the suburban location is closer, as money spent in a Home Depot in the suburbs does nothing to show that Detroit is a solid investment. Making the Detroit location the most popular in the area would raise a few eyebrows.

There are reasons that you see so much investment on the outskirts of Detroit, but a lack of it in the city itself. The suburbs these retail locations are in knew that by doing what they could to draw the retailer they would draw money from the city to itself. Northland proved this.
Detroit just has to turn the tables. Do it better. Beat them at their own game.

Why is it that when the Empowerment zones were implemented during the Clinton administration Detroit did nearly nothing with them? Sure, a few businesses took advantage of the tax breaks, but where was the visible business that Detroiters could take advantage of? Elizabeth, NJ did pretty well… why couldn’t Detroit?

It is time to reverse the trend that has been a part of Detroit seemingly forever. John Lodge noted that Detroiters do a great job of talking with their hands in their pockets. [[I paraphrased, as I can’t find the exact quote right now.)

I believe in the “If you build it, they will come” philosophy. We just need to figure out how to actually get past all the crap and build it.

To hell with the naysayers. If they gave a damn about Detroit in the first place they would do more than just bitch about it.

[illwill]

jtl 1972,

I spoke of the same issue in another thread a couple of weeks ago. In regards to Detroit not taking advantage of empowerment zone opportunities and lots of other government programs that so many other cities used to rebuild. I referred to it as "Detroit missing the economic boom". The years that Chicago and New York made the comebacks and other small and unknown cities gained national notoriety. Detroit missed the boom, didn't take the free money or whatever you want to call it. We missed the boat big time!



gthomas,

As a young business person myself, I believe in your vision. The most important factor is that you're not primarily seeking profit but also change and you're doing it out of the love for your city. You're one of the people that probably could have taken a job in another city after college, but you chose to stay in the city. I left the city long ago and I'll be returning back to Detroit pretty soon as a part time resident. However, I do recommend that people leave their hometowns when you're young and try living in other cities because you learn so much. I've learned so much by living in other places and now I can take these talents and re-create them in Detroit. I still ABSOLUTELY LOVE where i'm living today, although I'm only a small fish in a gigantic sea, but i'm addicted to the energy. However, I definitely want to spend most of my time pitching in to help rebuild Detroit.

[Marc]

OK, some people are making this an optimistic visioneer vs. Detroit downer argument and it is NOT.

It is a lack of critical thought problem. Everyone knows Woodward could be an amazing Magnificent Mile because it once was. Stating that is like saying Michigan needs better public transportation. Oh really, how interesting, thanks for the wonderful input.

Creating a shopping district downtown is not a plan or even an idea. Woodward was built for retail, it's obvious, that's why this post pisses me off. There's no framework for a plan or unique idea to discuss. There's not even a recognition of the issues involved.

On a positive note, as to not be labeled a Detro Downer, there is a massive plan moving forward to make Woodward pretty kick-ass. I'm sure those of you who actually follow downtown development are aware. I have been meeting with teams of people involved and I am very optimistic. There are significant amounts of time, research, and money being poured into this plan and it is picking up traction...I just really hope the name doesn't stick.

[DetroitDad]

Worth reading;

Realistic lower Woodward retail ideas

[Red Devil]

THANK YOU!!!!! WOLERINE! You get it..thats my whole point!!! CLARITY

Your idea is a good one. Check out Denver's 16th Street Mall. It's pretty much what you are talking about. Chain stores are the retail paradigm and mom & pop cannot compete with the supply chain beast. Your proposal might have to be heavily subsidized though. 80% of funding for Denver's mall came from Federal funds [[in the 70s). If they get it built for free...then they will come.

[bartock]

• You mean like the woman's jean and urban apparel boutique right across the street?
  
  
  Attachment 9198

Was it ever open? The signs are still there, but at least in the last year and a half I don't recall seeing anything open.

[gthomas]

jyf1972 and illwill..thank you for understanding. I left for school in Oklahoma for 5yrs and return for change in my hometown. I traveled the world, performed in most NFL/NBA arenas. Been to most major cities and seen what Detroit can become or once was. It was frustrating to enjoy other vibrant cities and return home to go to a cookie cutter mall...BORING! Those others citites where an EXPERIENCE. As a tourist, i never left from the Downtown area for anything I wanted...Whats wrong with DETROIT right? I visit Denver and saw a Detroit version of where we trying to go...A good mixture of Big box retail with local spots next door. No competition..

My point is..Why do the suburbs have 5 malls within a few mile? WE HAVE 713,000 RESIDENTS WHO CAN SUPPORT "1" MAJOR RETAIL DOWNTOWN!! I gaurantee if you put Macy downtown every detroiter will rather keep the money here and not shop elsewhere. The real reason is...we dont have a choice but to spend our money out there, its our only option. Make Detroit a option...AGAIN AS I MENTION EARLIER IN THE THREAD..."DETROITERS" SPEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS!!!! LET ME SAY DAT AGAIN! ..."MILLIONS" in our suburbs...WOW!! And we cant support 1 freakin major store..??? I dont understand your method of what works here or not. WE DESERVE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gthomas]

OH and to mention...Through my journey and experience being away for awhile, I did my research. I convinced most of my friends to relocate here from vibrant cities such as Chicago, Newyork, and Dallas for opportunity. Its very hard to leave cities like that and get here and have to DRIVE 30 minutes to get a shirt..? ALL my friends talk about is where to shop DOWNTOWN, not somerset/eastland/northland malls...they hate going to malls. HINT *HINT.....to keep and retain youth here is to create that environment for vibrancy we thrive for in cities...I dont go to these other cities to go to there malls...who does that..OH METRO Detroiters......its really ashame to me. I dont think im barking up the wrong tree, some of you need to climb it and reach some goals...Im only one man.

[Crumbled_pavement]

gthomas, first off I want to say thank you for your enthusiasm and optimism. It is people like you that will help lead Detroit to a rebound. However, you have to be realistic with the challenges Detroit faces as well. All of the problems with Detroit not having retail are not simple in nature, some of it requires much more consideration.

At least seven reasons retail is a challenge in Detroit:
Crime:
Some people won't shop in the city because they are afraid of being victimized by a crime, whether it is a mugging or their car vandalized or stolen while they are shopping. Although these things can still happen in the suburbs, they are far less likely to happen. Also, the business owner has to worry about being robbed as well. Witness how many fast food restaurants in the city have bulletproof glass where suburban locations that even border the city don't.

The crime in the city can be addressed in a number of ways, but businesses really can't do much about it. The crime keeps both the business owners and customers out of the city.

Taxes:
I understand the complexity of this issue but it has to be addressed. The difference between taxes in the city and suburbs compared with the service means the business either has to settle for a lower profit margin or has to charge higher prices. I don't know what it would take to bring Detroit's taxes/services in line to be competitive with the suburbs, but there is not much a business can do about this. If Kroger feels they can make more money on the north side of 8 Mile in Royal Oak Twp. than they can on the south side of 8 Mile, guess where they are going to build their store?

Insurance:
If Detroit government dealt with the crime issue then maybe it could help lower the cost of insurance in the city. Insurance in a sense acts like a tax, the higher it is means the business owner has to either accept a lower profit margin or impose higher prices on the customer. Too many businesses in any area of Detroit face too many burglaries to be acceptable. Bing really needs to address this issue!

Red tape:
Many entrepreneurs have been willing to put up with the crime, high taxes, and high insurance to take a chance in the city only to be confronted with red tape. See all the scandals past City Council persons and former mayors have been involved in. Pay to play has driven a lot of potential from the city. Hopefully Bing can restore some honesty to the city government.

Location [[might be too expensive because of owner, clean-up, lack of size, etc.):
Michigan Central Station comes to mind. Many people would love to rehab this historic structure and fill it with shops and lodging and all kinds of other neat ideas. However, the building belongs to Matty Moroun and if he doesn't want to rent/sell it for the price some are willing to pay then the place stays vacant. There are lots of buildings in Detroit that fit this criteria. The owner is either holding out for top dollar, there is too much cleanup involved [[Packard Plant), there is no enough space at the location or accessibility, etc. This is another challenge that needs to be dealt with.

Panhandlers:
This one really infuriates me. I went to a gas station at Evergreen and 8 Mile in Southfield one evening and there was a bum out from begging for change. By the time I walked into the store to grab what I wanted the owner had already chased the bum off. I rarely ever see anyone begging at this gas station and this incident helped me understand why. Just one mile inside the city on 7 Mile it is like beggars paradise. They hang out at almost every gas station, Coney Island, party store, you name it. Who would want to shop in the city when they have to push their way through panhandlers all the time when they can simply go across the street from the city and be free of beggars? I do shop in the suburbs often and I rarely [[but it has happened) face panhandlers but in the city it's an everyday experience at just about any business. This seems like an easy fix that both businesses and the city could fix almost pronto. I have no idea why it hasn't been addressed.

Dirty:
Much like the panhandlers, the dirt and trash in some areas of the city is a turnoff. There are party stores, gas stations, and grocery stores inside the city that act as if they don't know what is to pick up a piece of trash. Unfortunately, if you're not from Detroit and you've never been here, you'll know when you've reached the city limits without even seeing a sign. The huge difference in how dirty and trashy the city is compared with all the inner ring suburbs cannot be missed. Again, this seems like a small issue that is easy to fix but continues to linger.

None of these problems are insurmountable, and none of them apply to every business, but these issues need to be addressed. Bing said it right, Detroit needs to hang a "open for business" sign in the city. The question is, is the government of Detroit ready to make the changes need to move in that direction. gthomas, I'd hate to lose you. If the city doesn't address these issues you might be one that gets tired of fighting the inevitable and take your talents to the suburbs or another metro area. Keep up the good fight, and hopefully many others are inspired to join you.

[gthomas]

Ok I agree in someway...? Downtown has little to no crime, Basicilly no tax or in a renaissance tax credit zone, so no high taxes for businesses. Very well kept up by CleanDowntown and with lightrail running right through the area soon. LOCATION is PERFECT! I answer your statement about what really true. Do you really go through this when your downtown..no I dont think so. I can walk around downtown on a summer night and feel safe, night crew from CleanDowntown cleaning city streets. The infrastructure is there and waiting patiently. Hope the Broderick Tower Apartments and Whitney building attract some nice retail.... Whats your experience downtown...?

[gthomas]

The wrong 7 reasons [[No facts of Downtown) that you have there...

[Crumbled_pavement]

The wrong 7 reasons [[No facts of Downtown) that you have there...

So what is your explanation? I admit I don't hang out downtown, but the last time I was there for the Monster Trucks at Comerica Park back in Feb[[??) I can't say it appeared any different to me than what I've always known it to be.

[royce]

[QUOTE=Crumbled_pavement;235478]


"Location [[might be too expensive because of owner, clean-up, lack of size, etc.):
Michigan Central Station comes to mind. Many people would love to rehab this historic structure and fill it with shops and lodging and all kinds of other neat ideas. However, the building belongs to Matty Moroun and if he doesn't want to rent/sell it for the price some are willing to pay then the place stays vacant. There are lots of buildings in Detroit that fit this criteria. The owner is either holding out for top dollar, there is too much cleanup involved [[Packard Plant), there is no enough space at the location or accessibility, etc. This is another challenge that needs to be dealt with."

This is a very important compontent that many people don't realize. You'll hear it in their comments when they say things like, "The city ought to this concerning vacant buildings..." However, the city can do little with vacant buildings, especially commericial buildings, if the owner pays his/her taxes and keeps the building maintained [[which usually means just keeping it locked and boarded up so that trespassers can't go in and trash it), Owners holding out for big bucks chase away development. Matty Moroun is the classic example.

[gthomas]

The reason for retail downtown is not just for shopping but for JOBS. Which in turn create a livingable city, with increase revenue, just wages ...money will start flowing in our REAL urban center. Also will dramatically increase foot traffic from downtown resident, worker and visitor alike. Thats why I picked reasonable retail that will work in our city WITHOUT depending on our suburbs, like theres not enough residents here in the city...crazy. All of this is to create a 24 hour city, which YOUNG, EDUCATED folks love and willing to invest in the long run. This is what we like, so why not support em..? This region is backward as for what works in a successful city or region. But siting here complaining what works and what dont works is pointless. If a truly had the money to do such thing I will show you how a downtown should be. BUILD THE SHIT AND THE SHIT WILL COME!!!!! GUARANTEED!!!!...I apologize for being aggressive but thats where my passion and love for this city expresses...

If this is what keeps them here do what you have to do..Give the citizens a reason to come downtown and shop on woodward, they will! Trust..! Just frustrating...trying not to give up. If a hear of more major retail shopping centers open in the suburbs im going to go CRAZY!! Now THAT dont makes sense in this economy. Oh and also entertainment...the young need places and things to do without leaving the city. I truly believe the region and retailers are scared that if downtown detroit was to become a vibrant urban retail center much of our surrounding suburb malls and centers, beside somserset; Will CLOSE...they know the citizens of Detroit need these things but wants it to be limited but not too limited...truthfully. L. Brooks Patterson will DEFINITELY not be happy. keep in mind AGAIN..DETROITERS spend hundreds of millions in the suburbs for basic needs.....HHHHEEEELLLLLLOOOOO! That dont sound good...

[gthomas]

Wouldnt this be nice downtown beside heading to the mall...? Soon to be DETROIT!

[gthomas]

See how vibrant this cities are just in the picture, go there! It seems to work there. So all you guys from metro detroit rather go to the mall than to EXPERIENCE these photos...No disrespect to the elderly, but as being young I rather go to these palce before going to anybodys MALL..boring! THIS CAN AND WILL WORK DOWNTOWN...it wont hurt to try. What will hurt is not having a opportunity to support these retailer downtown.

[stasu1213]

I think that the pay to play element is still in the city government. May not be the Mayor this time but possibly someone on the council or other parts of city government that allow entities such as liquor stores and strip club to open for business within a couple of months but a good grocery store for the neighborhood takes up to a year or two. The same goes for downtown. It is probably the red tape more than any other barrier that keep potential retail from moving into downtown. Stores like Sermans or J L Stone had been downtown for a long time but I would not buy a suit or a shirt from them. The salespeople don't know how to fit you in clothing such as a suite or a coat. Local entreprenuers could bring downtown back. Young retailers could set up shop if they could cater to mainstream customers instead of the "funky hip hop crowd". More womens shops should be allowed to open downtown that caters to women or all sizes and styles not just the petite ones or the "Hochie Mamas". Macys would do good in the GM building downtown while local shops would do go along the lower woodward corridor. There was a shop named Moci clothing on the corner of Michigan and Washington Blvd that had cater to certain types of women. It had only opened for 7 years and closed two years ago or so.