Michigan CEO: Soul-Crushing Sprawl Killing Business

[ghettopalmetto]

I know there are plenty of disbelievers who read these threads and think that "failed businesses" is largely a Detroit problem, and that "Oakland County is doing just fine". Allow me to offer evidence to the contrary, in the form of a letter from a partner in a Troy law firm who seems unable to recruit new employees.

Read it and weep--and pour a glass of milk on the ground in memory of Pleasantville, USA.

We’d like to stay in Michigan, but we have a problem. It’s not taxes or
regulations. There’s lots of talk about these issues but they have no
impact on our business. We spend more on copiers and toner than we do
on state taxes.

Our problem is access to talent. We have high-paying positions open for
patent attorneys in the software and semiconductor space. Even though
it is one of the best hiring environments for IP firms in 40 years, we
cannot fill these positions. Most qualified candidates live out of state
and simply will not move here, even though they are willing to relocate
to other cities. Our recruiters are very blunt. They say it is almost
impossible to recruit to Michigan without paying big premiums above
competitive salaries on the coasts.

It’s nearly a certainty that we will have to relocate [[or at a minimum
expand ) our business out of Michigan if we want to grow.
People – particularly affluent and educated people – just don’t want to
live here.

http://rustwire.com/2011/03/11/michi...iving-us-away/

[DetroitPole]

I know there are plenty of disbelievers who read these threads and think that "failed businesses" is largely a Detroit problem, and that "Oakland County is doing just fine". Allow me to offer evidence to the contrary, in the form of a letter from a partner in a Troy law firm who seems unable to recruit new employees.

Read it and weep--and pour a glass of milk on the ground in memory of Pleasantville, USA.



http://rustwire.com/2011/03/11/michi...iving-us-away/

Wait, but that's not what Governor Snyder told me! It's the business taxes! They have to arbitrarily be lowered accross the board! Then Michigan will be the land of milk and honey!

[hybridy]

though its already so abundantly clear...we need to retrofit and infill our suburbs making them urbanized and walkable...woodward avenue & jefferson are our star corridors not big beaver and hall road

[Det_ard]

though its already so abundantly clear...we need to retrofit and infill our suburbs making them urbanized and walkable...woodward avenue & jefferson are our star corridors not big beaver and hall road

While I appreciate the attorney's situation, it's ironic that his SE Michigan office is located on ...
.
.
.
Big Beaver Rd in Troy!

How about he puts his money where his mouth is, and locate in downtown Detroit, or at least downtown Ferndale/RO/Birmingham/etc.

[iheartthed]

While I appreciate the attorney's situation, it's ironic that his SE Michigan office is located on ...
.
.
.
Big Beaver Rd in Troy!

How about he puts his money where his mouth is, and locate in downtown Detroit, or at least downtown Ferndale/RO/Birmingham/etc.

I did note that too. But he also said they have an office in Ann Arbor.

[bailey]

this firm has been based in Troy since the late 1970's, which is ironic given the subject matter of the letter.

Exactly. Nothing like whining about a problem you are directly responsible for creating. Where do the partners and associates live now? I'm betting not in any "urban" setting. Fuck you and your concern trolling. This about the same as Chrysler complaining about how Highland Park has really gone downhill.

I think you'd find a line up of students coming out of Wayne State, Cooley, U of D and other law schools around here for a job at a patent law firm.

True, but, generally engineering backgrounds are required thus the pool gets shallow very fast.

[rjk]

While I appreciate the attorney's situation, it's ironic that his SE Michigan office is located on ...
.
.
.
Big Beaver Rd in Troy!

How about he puts his money where his mouth is, and locate in downtown Detroit, or at least downtown Ferndale/RO/Birmingham/etc.

Yeah, I got a kick out of that.
Just about everything this guy is complaining about is supersized where his business is loacted.

Is there any other road that gets goofed on more on this forum than 16 mile?

[xD_Brklyn]

This is not the first time a business in the Detroit Metro area has mentioned their inability to attract top talent, but the region politically does not want to hear this because it means making Detroit city a better place to be as well as creating other things like urban density and mass transit.

[iheartthed]

This guy isn't saying anything that isn't clearly apparent to professionals who live outside of Michigan. Maybe that's who the leadership should be consulting while they try to fix that boondoggle of a state.

[bartock]

This guy isn't saying anything that isn't clearly apparent to professionals who live outside of Michigan. Maybe that's who the leadership should be consulting while they try to fix that boondoggle of a state.

or, maybe the leadership should figure out a way to make the corporate tax climate in this state friendlier to businesses who may actually put roots down here, as opposed to throwing a couple hundred million at a niche and transient industry. Oh wait, that's what those dumbasses are doing.

[bartock]

I don't see where people on here accuse Detroit of being the source of "failed business" and Oakland County "doing just fine." I think, comparatively speaking, there are those for reasons that are constantly discussed on these threads, would argue that Oakland County, Macomb County, and western Wayne County are more desireable places to live than Detroit city proper. There are 1.2 million people and 40 years of evidence to back that up. I think one of the general conclusions that most agree upon is that people go where the jobs are.

So, to that end, it is difficult to consider an intellectual property firm with 16 attorneys based in Troy and Ann Arbor, and a Palo Alto implant of all of 5 years into Metro Detroit's letter as evidence of anything, frankly. This firm has been based in Troy since the late 1970's, which is ironic given the subject matter of the letter. The author mentions that he has been in Troy for 5 years, he doesn't even mention the Ann Arbor office, which is about as close to Palo Alto as Metro Detroit is going to get.

As for his statement about being pikers compared to California. Perhaps Palo Alto, much like Ann Arbor, is an exception to the rule, but California and in particular Los Angeles, is much more sprawled and crawling with traffic, etc., than Metro Detroit. I'm moving to Shelby Twp., which is about 28 miles from my office in downtown Detroit and will take 45-50 minutes each way in commute. Someone living in, say, Calabasas and commuting to downtown L.A. has twice as long a commute for the same distance.

I don't know what the author's unspoken agenda may have been, but I'd also point out that one of the largest IP firms in the country [[and one of the few law firms in Metro Detroit of any kind that can say this) is in Troy - Harness, Dickey & Pierce. Given that the U.S. is putting a patent office in "Detroit" [[not sure it might be metro Detroit), I question some of the conclusions. While patent lawyers are highly specialized and quite niche, I think you'd find a line up of students coming out of Wayne State, Cooley, U of D and other law schools around here for a job at a patent law firm.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't see where people on here accuse Detroit of being the source of "failed business" and Oakland County "doing just fine." I think, comparatively speaking, there are those for reasons that are constantly discussed on these threads, would argue that Oakland County, Macomb County, and western Wayne County are more desirable places to live than Detroit city proper. There are 1.2 million people and 40 years of evidence to back that up.

That's the entire point of the letter, bartock. Maybe YOU think Oakland County, Macomb County, and western Wayne County are desirable places to live. For those without a lifelong emotional attachment to Southeastern Michigan, though, it is clear they are not desirable AT ALL. There is 40 years of evidence to back that up. People with options seek quality of life. Michigan worries more about stadiums and casinos and demolishing old buildings and building freeways and cutting taxes than creating decent places.

It would be nice, for once, if Detroiters assembled their collective "blue-collar mentality" and got together to work for solutions instead of excuses. All you're doing, bartock, is promoting the status quo, which is obviously far from ideal.

And, did anyone stop to think that perhaps Big Beaver Road was the only appropriate office space this gentleman could find within a reasonable commuting distance of his home in Birmingham?

[Detroitnerd]

I find it interesting that the same people who seem to be such experts on corporate tax structure have such TUNNEL VISION. Such BLINDERS to all other factors.

Younger people are less interested in huge homes on sprawling lots:

No McMansions for Millennials
http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/no...llennials.html


Younger people simply aren't interested in cars the way older generations have been:

Millennials Driven, Not Driving
http://www.brandchannel.com/home/pos...en-Y-Cars.aspx

Millennials Driving Less, Citing Cost, Digital Alternatives and the Environment
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/...vironment.html

Study: 'Millennials' driving less, want alternatives
http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/S...ernatives.aspx


Younger people are less likely to care about easy parking:

Why Millennials need less parking
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/w...-parking-13229

In short, there is all this research that you can do indicating that the population of the United States is gradually moving away from the sorts of car-centered culture we've spent years building here. Look at it. It doesn't look very good for the Commerces and Novis down the line, and jobs have little to do with it. We are talking about seismic shifts in what lifestyles and environments people prefer, and we actually have people who should know better on this forum saying, meh, it's OK. When the jobs machine gets turned back on, people will flock here. We don't need transit. We don't need to rebuild our city center. All we need are wide freeways and acres and acres of beautiful parking lots, and jobs to bring in the people.

You almost get the feeling that somebody with that O.C. mentality in 20 years will be sitting in a cracked office in an empty office tower in Troy, saying, "Once we get that jobs machine turned back on, they'll just start SWARMING in. Any minute now. Just SWARMING in..."

[j to the jeremy]

I find it interesting that the same people who seem to be such experts on corporate tax structure have such TUNNEL VISION. Such BLINDERS to all other factors.

Younger people are less interested in huge homes on sprawling lots:

No McMansions for Millennials
http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/no...llennials.html


Younger people simply aren't interested in cars the way older generations have been:

Millennials Driven, Not Driving
http://www.brandchannel.com/home/pos...en-Y-Cars.aspx

Millennials Driving Less, Citing Cost, Digital Alternatives and the Environment
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/...vironment.html

Study: 'Millennials' driving less, want alternatives
http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/S...ernatives.aspx


Younger people are less likely to care about easy parking:

Why Millennials need less parking
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/w...-parking-13229

In short, there is all this research that you can do indicating that the population of the United States is gradually moving away from the sorts of car-centered culture we've spent years building here. Look at it. It doesn't look very good for the Commerces and Novis down the line, and jobs have little to do with it. We are talking about seismic shifts in what lifestyles and environments people prefer, and we actually have people who should know better on this forum saying, meh, it's OK. When the jobs machine gets turned back on, people will flock here. We don't need transit. We don't need to rebuild our city center. All we need are wide freeways and acres and acres of beautiful parking lots, and jobs to bring in the people.

You almost get the feeling that somebody with that O.C. mentality in 20 years will be sitting in a cracked office in an empty office tower in Troy, saying, "Once we get that jobs machine turned back on, they'll just start SWARMING in. Any minute now. Just SWARMING in..."

I love that when someone makes a good point on here, it always goes unrewarded. There will be another poster by the end of the day somewhere on here, saying how great the quality of life in Troy is. [["The city of tomorrow, today!" sounds sadly ironic if you're well versed in planning and regional history.)

This point is important. My friend who studies at WSU, and grew up in Greece, is constantly asking me why SE Michiganders live such a "sedentary lifestyle" [[exact quote, and even he admits Greece is extremely laid back). I think the answer is that we haven't been given a choice.

When the densest neighborhood with reasonable diversity in the region is "Midtown", which WSU does their damndest to turn into Troy, we have problems. I see the commuter culture of the region spread to students and employees living down here. I know of many WSU employees who will drive 2 blocks to go eat at a "trendy" place like Shangri-la.

The result is a new "greenspace" at Woodward and Warren, which should be a commercial hub for the neighborhood, as well as lots of Parking and cheap architecture. And a neighborhood that's walkable despite its circumstances.

The rest of the region refuses to embrace any forward thinking, unless it's passing some non-binding Complete Streets ordinance. Oakland county wants more sprawl and new roads. Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

[R8RBOB]

Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

Okay, going off subject for a moment.....can someone please tell me of a time when states have returned money? We have states ran by Republicans returning billions of "Obama dollars" in an attempt to say "we know the nation is in debt, so we don't want to add to it" yet they want to increase revenue by asking for the middle class and poor to give more yet they tell the rich we are going to give you the money so that you will create jobs and the government can stay out of our lives. I'm still scratching my head on this. Okay, back to the subject.

[bartock]

I love that when someone makes a good point on here, it always goes unrewarded. There will be another poster by the end of the day somewhere on here, saying how great the quality of life in Troy is. [["The city of tomorrow, today!" sounds sadly ironic if you're well versed in planning and regional history.)

This point is important. My friend who studies at WSU, and grew up in Greece, is constantly asking me why SE Michiganders live such a "sedentary lifestyle" [[exact quote, and even he admits Greece is extremely laid back). I think the answer is that we haven't been given a choice.

When the densest neighborhood with reasonable diversity in the region is "Midtown", which WSU does their damndest to turn into Troy, we have problems. I see the commuter culture of the region spread to students and employees living down here. I know of many WSU employees who will drive 2 blocks to go eat at a "trendy" place like Shangri-la.

The result is a new "greenspace" at Woodward and Warren, which should be a commercial hub for the neighborhood, as well as lots of Parking and cheap architecture. And a neighborhood that's walkable despite its circumstances.

The rest of the region refuses to embrace any forward thinking, unless it's passing some non-binding Complete Streets ordinance. Oakland county wants more sprawl and new roads. Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

This thread reminds me of the Henry Ford thread in that it seems you either have to believe this region sucks as a whole AT EVERYTHING!!!! or, you believe the City is great and the suburbs suck, or vice-versa. Like most things, there are juxtapositions. Do I think Troy is great? No! I hate the housing stock, planning, blandness of it. Does that reflect the people who live there? No! And do I like Somerset Mall? Yes! Do I think the City of Detroit is great? Yes! Do I think it has massive problems? Yes! Does this region have massive problems? Yes! But can't I like Rochester, Shelby, Birmingham, Northville along with Belle Isle, Eastern Market, Wayne State etc., recognizing all of the warts and supporting ideas for solving those problems, or does that put me too much in the middle?

Amen to the prison spending being out of control...

[Richard]

It is not sprawl killing business,its more of a attitude aspect from city and state levels,I am beginning to wonder if there is an unwritten policy for the state to keep a ready supply of labor for a couple of large companies as to not inflate the labor demand.

[English]

Hypocrite or not, he's right. DYes tends to skew older and younger than I am -- retiring Boomers and Greatest Generation folks, and starry-eyed 20-somethings. There aren't as many folks in my age bracket, Generation X. Most of us are raising kids and trying to make something of ourselves in our fields. And staying in the Detroit metro is widely seen as something that folks can't afford to do if they have any choice or say in the matter.

It's one thing to choose sprawl when you're well established. It's quite another if you're in your 20s and have paid half attention to where oil prices are going. Most middle class, upwardly mobile 20 somethings that I know [[and have taught @ Michigan & WSU) value walkable, bike-able 'hoods. Of course we're going to lose them to Chicago... and an increasing number aren't willing to give up urban life because of parenthood. The Millennials are as different from the Boomers as the Boomers were from the Greatest in their choices... why would we expect them to keep sprawling into mid-Michigan? That just isn't where the trends are pointing.

[R8RBOB]

I understand the guy's point. Who wants to move here? Metro Detroiters have spent decades ripping on Detroit every chance they get. Some even have proudly stated that they never go to Detroit. Detroiters proper didn't do anything to prove the naysayers wrong. They went right along with the stereotyping.

Imagine you were set to move to Illinois and Chicagoland residents told you not to go to Chicago because its too dangerous or its too ghetto or there is nothing to do there and you would have to settle for life in Joliet, would you look forward to going to Illinois? Hell naw, you wouldn't.

Troy, Farmington Hills, Fraser, Walled Lake is foreign to anyone not living in Michigan. If you are living in South Dakota and you have a job offer in Southfield, MI, you want to know about Detroit because out of towners identify Michigan with Detroit and if you hear that Detroit is a sewer, it doesn't matter that you can move to Novi you aren't want to come to Michigan.

[belleislerunner]

Sounds like Andrew is trying to get affirmation that his move to Palo Alto was smart. Sure he can have a sattelite office there - but his comparison of Detroit to San Francisco is as insane as complaining Hermitage, TN doesn't have the same quality of life factors as Manhattan.

His firm doesn't pay entry level law grads the 160 they get at other white toe law firms coming out of law school in Manhattan. The entry level price in San Fran of 135K would equate to 85K in Detroit. His comparison would be more valid if he was comaring Detroit to Denver, Phoenix or Philadelphia. http://www.averyindex.com/cost_of_living.php

Most high performing 20 year olds when given the option of making 135K in San Fran or 85K in Detroit would choose San Fran - if just for the climate alone. Even if was a choice between San Fran and Chicago at 100K - the same 90% would choose San Fran. Moral of the story- I think this guy is just ranting because he wants us to feel sorry his pay of employees isnt adequate or the headhunters he hired are lousy. There's a reason people don't want to work at his firm. Location is the easy scape goat.

[iheartthed]

Sounds like Andrew is trying to get affirmation that his move to Palo Alto was smart. Sure he can have a sattelite office there - but his comparison of Detroit to San Francisco is as insane as complaining Hermitage, TN doesn't have the same quality of life factors as Manhattan.

His firm doesn't pay entry level law grads the 160 they get at other white toe law firms coming out of law school in Manhattan. The entry level price in San Fran of 135K would equate to 85K in Detroit. His comparison would be more valid if he was comaring Detroit to Denver, Phoenix or Philadelphia. http://www.averyindex.com/cost_of_living.php

Most high performing 20 year olds when given the option of making 135K in San Fran or 85K in Detroit would choose San Fran - if just for the climate alone. Even if was a choice between San Fran and Chicago at 100K - the same 90% would choose San Fran. Moral of the story- I think this guy is just ranting because he wants us to feel sorry his pay of employees isnt adequate or the headhunters he hired are lousy. There's a reason people don't want to work at his firm. Location is the easy scape goat.

The pay for patent lawyers doesn't diverge that wildly based on location [[unlike corporate law, which is what bloats the pay stats for the coastal cities). According to simplyhired.com, the average salary for an IP patent attorney in Detroit is $88K/year and $89K/year in New York. In DC and SF the salaries are $102K and $101K, respectively. And in Chicago the average salary is $83K/year.

[Cooper]

The author, by the way, is also a forumer. He posted before about the Woodward Project, his campaign to urbanize Woodward from downtown out to Birmingham:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

Here's his website: http://www.woodwardproject.org/

[bailey]

The author, by the way, is also a forumer. He posted before about the Woodward Project, his campaign to urbanize Woodward from downtown out to Birmingham:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

Here's his website: http://www.woodwardproject.org/

Great. perhaps he can enlighten us as to why his offices are on big beaver instead of in the CBD and he does not feel that lawyers graduating from local lawschools are a good fit for his firm.

[bartock]

The pay for patent lawyers doesn't diverge that wildly based on location [[unlike corporate law, which is what bloats the pay stats for the coastal cities). According to simplyhired.com, the average salary for an IP patent attorney in Detroit is $88K/year and $89K/year in New York. In DC and SF the salaries are $102K and $101K, respectively. And in Chicago the average salary is $83K/year.

It absolutely does. simplyhired.com is not a good source. Neither is any State Bar or attorney publication. Hardly anybody reports or provides information to these resources and, bonuses for billable hours can more than double yearly salaries.

Just an example.

http://www.ritesite.com/jobs/IP-Pate...ney-370684.htm

No, I don't have a link, but from two married IP patent attorneys I went to school with and trust, a fresh-faced new IP patent attorney in NYC is likely making the same money as a 15 year partner doing IP patent attorney work here.

[rondinjp]

The pay for patent lawyers doesn't diverge that wildly based on location [[unlike corporate law, which is what bloats the pay stats for the coastal cities). According to simplyhired.com, the average salary for an IP patent attorney in Detroit is $88K/year and $89K/year in New York. In DC and SF the salaries are $102K and $101K, respectively. And in Chicago the average salary is $83K/year.

Trust me, these numbers are incorrect for every city mentioned. Including Detroit, and especially NYC.