charter schools to replace failing schools?

[crosswordgirl]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011031...text|FRONTPAGE

[mwilbert]

I don't understand how the math works--where do the charters get the money to operate the buildings, pay the leases, and also run a school? Don't the charters start out with less money per student than the DPS does?

Since I don't think the DPS should exist, I can hardly object to closing down more schools, but I don't see how all these schools can be operated unless there is some magic source of money someplace [[foundations?) for the charters. My assumption would be that only some of the schools would end up being operated.

[lincoln8740]

I don't understand how the math works--where do the charters get the money to operate the buildings, pay the leases, and also run a school? Don't the charters start out with less money per student than the DPS does?
.

Why is DPS more expensive than running a Charter?

I will give you a hint: The word has six letters and it starts with a U and ends in a S.

[mwilbert]

That may well be part of it. In my view the more substantial difference is 14 letters long, starts with "A" and also ends with "S". I don't question that the charters are cheaper to operate, but I still don't see how the numbers would work. It sounds as if he intends to go ahead with this plan, so I guess we will see how many of the schools he gets proposals for, and how much lease money the DPS ends up getting.

[Jimaz]

Wiki for charter school funding

[noenaim]

Why is DPS more expensive than running a Charter?

I will give you a hint: The word has six letters and it starts with a U and ends in a S.

I have come to the conclusion that people who trash unions [[in particular the teachers) are just jealous. Every worker should have the same kind of pay and benefits that teachers have. It's like if I can't have it know one should.

It was not teachers [[most teachers) who ruined DPS it was years of bad administration, but they won't be punished teachers will.

[wolverine]

Don't know about Michigan, but public charters in many inter city areas in other places have teachers and staff that are paid more than unionized teachers in the public school system. Don't know about their benefits though, but the salary is better and increases based on performance [[just like all private sector jobs). But really it's about the students right? How are the students doing? Well, typically better, but never just the same or worse than the public schools system. From what I can see, a plan like this for Detroit's schools may just work.

I have to also say, the public charter schools in my area are just stunning. Beautiful new buildings that could rival new academic structures on big college campuses. Where they get all the money, I don't know.

[313WX]

Why is DPS more expensive than running a Charter?

I will give you a hint: The word has six letters and it starts with a U and ends in a S.

Is that word Uranus?

[Jimaz]

Is that word Uranus?

LMAO!

That would make a good thread -- word guessing games.

[Richard]

IMHO This is a good idea,as it stands now it is going to take some time for DPS to get back on its feet and Detroits moving forward will be hindered until that happens,strategically placed charter schools will be a cornerstone of sorts in a neighborhood revitalization.

The only thing that becomes a concern is that non performers or ones that choose to disrupt others learning in charters will be dumped back into DPS,Kinda like Catholic schools without the religious aspect,as a student you are there to learn and a lot of things that are tolerated in public school will not be the same in charter school.

In theory they could be used now until DPS gets back on its feet then convert to private schools or start charging on a sliding scale according to the parents income for the benefit of the smaller teacher student ratio,they were originally started to ease overcrowding in existing schools,small, fast, and able to make decisions concerning education without all of the years of red tape.

[rjk]

I have come to the conclusion that people who trash unions [[in particular the teachers) are just jealous. Every worker should have the same kind of pay and benefits that teachers have. It's like if I can't have it know one should.

If my neighbor has the nicest fence on my street I might be jealous. If my fence is falling apart and my neighbor has the nicest fence in my neighborhood and I'm paying for it I'm pissed.

These so-called jealous people you are talking about are the ones paying for their salaries/benefits.
I don't know if you noticed, but a lot of these jealous people are in a world of hurt in this lousy economy.

[Augustiner]

If my neighbor has the nicest fence on my street I might be jealous. If my fence is falling apart and my neighbor has the nicest fence in my neighborhood and I'm paying for it I'm pissed.

These so-called jealous people you are talking about are the ones paying for their salaries/benefits.
I don't know if you noticed, but a lot of these jealous people are in a world of hurt in this lousy economy.

It's not just a "lousy economy" in the sense of a cyclical downturn. Our economy is moving over time toward a model where almost nobody has a good job with benefits, and a very small number of people control the overwhelming majority of the wealth. That's not the inevitable result of some unstoppable natural force, that's big business and rich people aggressively lobbying for policies that create that sort of system. Union labor isn't the enemy here. If we want better jobs and better benefits, we need to use the democratic process to reverse the corporatist government policies of the last 30+ years.

[Jason]

The charter schools in Detroit don't do particularly better than the public schools. I don't this this is a surprise since the problem is with the kids' parents, and while good teachers can make an important difference in some kids lives teachers alone can't make up for everything that those kids have been dealt.

But Detroiters pay a lot of taxes for that failing school system. If DPS could shove those schools onto charters it would save it money [[apparently make it money according to the article), and make it more manageable. The taxes and the income wouldn't change as far as I know, but there would be less expenses and that would give DPS the room to make improvements on the remaining system. Then later on DPS could expand again to bring those students back into a DPS.

In the meantime those students would get stuck with the charters, but the education they're ending up with is so bad anyway I don't think it matters that much, and it would be better for the longterm.

[Jimaz]

It's not just a "lousy economy" in the sense of a cyclical downturn. Our economy is moving over time toward a model where almost nobody has a good job with benefits, and a very small number of people control the overwhelming majority of the wealth. That's not the inevitable result of some unstoppable natural force...

In fact, it's quite unnatural. Among wildlife it's common to find predators exploiting individual prey but rare to find predators exploiting wide swathes of prey. The only thing that comes immediately to mind is whales feeding on krill but even that's not predation within one species.

[Jimaz]

Here's an interestingly grizzly thought: Consider a hypothetical Donner Party scenario composed of members as extremely divided by class as are members of today's U. S. corporations. If one class were significantly more likely to resort to cannibalism before the other, which class would that be?

I'd predict that each class would predict the other as more likely cannibalistic—until stark reality forced a cannibalize-or-starve outcome. Consider the game of chicken. At that point stark reality would force the more cannibalistic class to expose its true deceptive and predatory nature despite its formerly contradictory prediction. Busted, rhetorically—but alive!

Next I would expect Faux News to deride all the traditional discriminatory press against cannibals and drone on about how that's always been so racist.

Granted, a story about corporate zombies consuming living, breathing, feeling, hurting human flesh might be more exactly related to our current economic tragedy but it's the best I could do on short notice.

[DetroitPole]

Why is DPS more expensive than running a Charter?

I will give you a hint: The word has six letters and it starts with a U and ends in a S.

Wow, you really have absolutely nothing of value to add, do you?

I was scrolling down and saw your user name before I saw your post, and thought to myself, "well either lincoln is an expert on charter school funding or he's going to just spout some right-wing diatribe."

And we all know how that went down.

Thank you to Jimaz for posting that informative link to wiki. Some of us are actually interested in learning new things, not just tying whatever obscure matter at hand to our agenda.

lincoln, since you're a stickler for facts and accuracy and all, maybe you can provide a link to support your adorable, cute, insightful post. The wiki paragraph didn't say anything about unions.

Open a book. Do something. Learn something. Be able to speak on something, for the love of God.

[firstandten]

The problem I see with so many charter schools in the city directly competing with DPS schools is that except for a handful of DPS schools, the DPS schools will be the schools of last resort once the charters start kicking out the troublemakers[[of course after count day). I can't see the DPS schools improving under that scenario. Other than Cass, Renaissance, Bates and a few others plus the charters picking off the cream the other DPS schools are left with a battle just to make AYP with the type of student they will have.

[reddog289]

DPS in my opinion didn't downsize when they should have.Not to mention the errors of judgement made by the folks in the board office.Therefore they ended up with Mr Bobb appointed by Gov Grandholm. And that story is still being played out.
As a Union school district employee, I don't fear for my job anymore as I know it's days are numbered. I do know that from what I have seen in the 10 years I have worked at the schools is alot of B.S..But I do listen when people speak. As for privatized custodial services, A third party said things just walk away. And a retired teacher who subbed in a charter school said she didn't think that that school should get away with what they were doing.
I might go out on the limb here saying this But charter schools are nothing but a racket.And for those who say "Hell any flunky can clean a school" Well I myself am not a flunky. I am familiar to the building, teachers, students, and their families.
I do not understand the fact that our elected officials say Yes to Schools yet hold funding over our heads.I myself being a parent almost became a parent of a charter school student, Yet she never graduated when she went back to public school..
I do think that there should be some common sense in the whole process of school funding Something that won't happen in the near future as I see it. The blame game will continue. And most likely the kids will suffer.

[Richard]

The problem I see with so many charter schools in the city directly competing with DPS schools is that except for a handful of DPS schools, the DPS schools will be the schools of last resort once the charters start kicking out the troublemakers[[of course after count day). I can't see the DPS schools improving under that scenario. Other than Cass, Renaissance, Bates and a few others plus the charters picking off the cream the other DPS schools are left with a battle just to make AYP with the type of student they will have.

Yes and no,charters cannot pick and choose what they can do is react more quickly to a situation and identify the underlying problem,charters pretty much are a mirror of a regular school but because of their size and ability and also teacher student ratio being smaller they can deal with problems faster then in overcrowded school system.Charter schools should never be treated as a private school as they are public and private funded, if one sees a case where that is happening then they need to be contacting somebody quick and the charter will be in jeopardy of loosing their funding and charter.

So if a student becomes a dumping candidate per-say ,it would mean that even in public school they would not survive because in the charter school they would receive way more hands on attention then they would in public school.

Most charter schools should or do try and remove the unnecessary distractions that create distractions if that makes sense,as an example everybody wears uniforms so everybody is equal,class size is way smaller so it is harder for a individual to upset the entire class without feeling some negative immediate peer distain,they are more into instilling pride into the students etc.

Right now all you hear is slash and burn of DPS and very little dealing with the main underlying problem parent involvement .

As an example in another state I had a charter school 3 blocks from my house and a public school 6 blocks,they did not compete they complemented each other the charter used a lottery system for admission and relieved the large class room size on the public school allowing them to concentrate more on improvement,but the public school heavily looked at parent involvement if your child had three un excused absences or a high truancy rate then you as a parent would be sitting down with a counselor,teacher,and police officer and getting down to what the problem is and dealing with it. If it persisted then yes there were a few parents that were arrested but right or wrong it had a huge impact.

[Zacha341]

Many of the better and larger charters are funded thru various foundations [[and they receive a certain level of public funding). There's big money to be made in charter education.

I don't understand how the math works--where do the charters get the money to operate the buildings, pay the leases, and also run a school? Don't the charters start out with less money per student than the DPS does?

Since I don't think the DPS should exist, I can hardly object to closing down more schools, but I don't see how all these schools can be operated unless there is some magic source of money someplace [[foundations?) for the charters. My assumption would be that only some of the schools would end up being operated.

[Zacha341]

Interesting point. I hear that there is a higher turn over in the charters as well. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. For certain there is BIG MONEY in Charter education, in education period. It's not like the end of DPS mean that moneys will not be spent.

I have come to the conclusion that people who trash unions [[in particular the teachers) are just jealous. Every worker should have the same kind of pay and benefits that teachers have. It's like if I can't have it know one should.

It was not teachers [[most teachers) who ruined DPS it was years of bad administration, but they won't be punished teachers will.

[Zacha341]

I hear you. It must work as it was the original plan, at least now unveiling of the 'plan' is near completion so everyone knows where they stand and what to do next; parents, teachers, students too I suppose.

If you have child currently in DPS what would you be planning in the fall? Probably to get out of the unstable DPS, thus DPS rolls will be dropping further, less revenue, higher class sizes etc. So much for the big money spent on the "I'm In" campaign... LOL!

Simple fact: Parents, especially of children under 12 or so are not going to keep following the few remaining DPS schools to keep their kids in DPS as more and more neighborhood schools continue to close. It posses too much of a logistical problem if a charter is nearby or a border suburban district!

Now older High School teens may continue thru their four-year DPS HS commitment so as to stay with their peers and they may be willing to catch the bus... thus, the article infers that the move towards charters may be less the High Schools. That makes sense.

But who knows for certain. We at least know that we've finally arrived at the final destination, withstanding all the hoopla, and subterfuge, talking points et al.

Onward with the charters. It's a done deal. Onward with the moneys too.

Following the money will be an interesting journey.

Don't know about Michigan, but public charters in many inter city areas in other places have teachers and staff that are paid more than unionized teachers in the public school system. Don't know about their benefits though, but the salary is better and increases based on performance [[just like all private sector jobs). But really it's about the students right? How are the students doing? Well, typically better, but never just the same or worse than the public schools system. From what I can see, a plan like this for Detroit's schools may just work.

I have to also say, the public charter schools in my area are just stunning. Beautiful new buildings that could rival new academic structures on big college campuses. Where they get all the money, I don't know.

[Zacha341]

Well stated. The AYP will be harder to achieve under those circumstances, so those schools will start to 'fail' under that construct. Again slow death by a thousand cuts. Once DPS founders all together the 'dumping back' after count day deal will be over... right now it is a gradual issue, at some point the tipping point will increase the students to the charter [[no longer hand picked) and to the out ring bordering suburbs. Fasten you seat belts folks, it's going to be interesting!

Does anyone know what is to happen to the four DPS Career and Technical Centers: Breithaupt, Crockett, Golightly and Randolph, and in this new charter endorsement?

Career and Technical Centers [[once known as 'Vo-techs' - Murray-Wright HS was the first in Detroit) operate in many states and other city districts outside of Detroit [[and receive different funding somewhat).

Withstanding some problems they have been very successful with high completion rates for high school students - some CTC's providing articulation programs to area colleges. What is to become of them?

The problem I see with so many charter schools in the city directly competing with DPS schools is that except for a handful of DPS schools, the DPS schools will be the schools of last resort once the charters start kicking out the troublemakers[[of course after count day). I can't see the DPS schools improving under that scenario. Other than Cass, Renaissance, Bates and a few others plus the charters picking off the cream the other DPS schools are left with a battle just to make AYP with the type of student they will have.

[English]

Well stated. The AYP will be harder to achieve under those circumstances, so those schools will start to 'fail' under that construct. Again slow death by a thousand cuts. Once DPS founders all together the 'dumping back' after count day deal will be over... right now it is a gradual issue, at some point the tipping point will increase the students to the charter [[no longer hand picked) and to the out ring bordering suburbs. Fasten you seat belts folks, it's going to be interesting!

Does anyone know what is to happen to the four DPS Career and Technical Centers: Breithaupt, Crockett, Golightly and Randolph, and in this new charter endorsement?

Career and Technical Centers [[once known as 'Vo-techs' - Murray-Wright HS was the first in Detroit) operate in many states and other city districts outside of Detroit [[and receive different funding somewhat).

Withstanding some problems they have been very successful with high completion rates for high school students - some CTC's providing articulation programs to area colleges. What is to become of them?

Exactly. I also hope that, in case we go through with the decision to defund and eliminate traditional public education, there will be charter and private school operators who choose to take on the increasing numbers of students with special learning and behavioral needs, as well as second language learners. Other than the KIPP folks, I just don't see the commitment to the kids with acute emotional and behavioral needs. They weren't addressed in the Waiting for Superman movie, and the teachers at most charter and private schools don't have to be bothered. I know that in a time of belt-tightening, taxpayers don't want to be bothered, and the most conservative will tell you that these kids don't need any form of education -- that to teach them is to pour money down a black hole. But they will pay for it in the 2020s when these un-educated and undereducated people start flooding into their neighborhoods. We are already starting to see that now. Imagine the volume once DPS is done.

[mwilbert]

But they will pay for it in the 2020s when these un-educated and undereducated people start flooding into their neighborhoods.

I don't think we have to wait until the 2020's for this. It is certainly true that the whole alternative school thing generally doesn't do much to accomodate the hardest-to-educate children, but the current Detroit school system generally doesn't do much for any children except ones who can get into exam schools.