Toughen up WSU admissions?

[Det_ard]

For the 2010-11 school year, 8,142 of the 9,950 students who applied were accepted, or 81.8 percent, said Judy Tatum, WSU director of undergraduate admissions.

...

Incoming freshmen were admitted if they had a minimum grade point average of 2.75, and an ACT score of 17, Tatum said. If a student had a grade point average below 2.75, they were only admitted if they scored 21 on the ACT.

...

Meanwhile, WSU's graduation rates are among the worst when compared to other Michigan public universities, and well below the 49 percent national average. After five years, full-time students graduated in 2009 from Michigan State University at a rate of 73 percent and from Western Michigan University at 47 percent, compared to 23 percent of WSU students. Only Lake Superior State University had a lower five-year graduation rate — 22 percent — according to the Michigan House Fiscal Agency.

...

"Wayne State is more of a big community college instead of a university and our graduation rates are so low, it's kind of ridiculous compared to the other major universities," said Southfield native Brian Walker, a junior who called for a change to admissions in the WSU student newspaper last semester.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110309/...#ixzz1G7DErekV

The low admissions standards at WSU drives better students away. A major city ought to have a top-quality university as well as less competitive colleges. Perhaps a UM-Detroit but with standards closer to UM-AA than UM-Flint or UM-Dearborn.

Letting lots of weak students in devalues the learning of other students, and isn't really fair to the weaker student who'll pay a bunch of money to WSU for a while, until they drop out without a degree. What's 2.5 years of WSU do for you on your resume?

There needs to be an institution for the less-qualified student [[Baker, Davenport?) but WSU needs to figure out if it wants to be a top research institution or, as the student quoted in the article said, a really large community college.

[Augustiner]

I think Wayne needs to serve the entire SE Michigan community, from bright 18-year-olds from affluent school districts to middle-aged blue-collar parents who took a buyout at Ford's to 30-year-olds who left high school and fucked around for ten years before heading back to school to DPS kids who are as smart as anybody but didn't get a proper education in grade school. If a lot of students are dropping out of Wayne, then Wayne should look at why they're dropping out and try to come up with ways to retain them, not just assume that they must be dumbasses who shouldn't have been let in to start with. Let U of M be U of M, Wayne is a different place with a different role in the community.

I'm not saying that the current admission standards are sacred and need to be kept as they are at all costs. Amending them might well be a good idea. I just think that the goal in amending them should be to allow Wayne to get better at what it already does, not to turn it into another U of M.

[SWMAP]

Perhaps what Augustiner suggests is indeed WSU mission. Perhaps it isn't. WSU knows what its mission is and our opinions as to what the mission should be don't count for much.

I for one would like to see WSU be tougher to get in and have to spend less on remedial instruction. Rigor should eb expected when applying to a university. Colleges are smaller and can do remedial better.

[belleislerunner]

I think you're right. WSU's mission tries to be the place where first generation college kids can get a college degree. More academically qualified students are not scared off by this - as they rarely have the same classes. I think the continued financial woes present the need to make a decision - do we raise tuition etc to cover the cost of remedial/retention based programs for the subset of students who are struggling - or do we say - we aren't doing them a service by admitting them and thus should raise admission standards. In a perfect world - you'd provide the help and support - but in a balance sheet driven world - something has to either be cut or tuition raised. Most students would probably argue for raising standards.

[rb336]

There needs to be an institution for the less-qualified student [[Baker, Davenport?) but WSU needs to figure out if it wants to be a top research institution or, as the student quoted in the article said, a really large community college.

There is - WCCCD. Wayne State SHOULD have higher standards. The remedial teaching should take place at community colleges - that is one of their functions. Perhaps WSU and WCCCD could make some kind of arrangement?

[socks_mahoney]

Speaking from experience, they definitely should. Even the Honors College at Wayne felt like a bit of a joke. I'll never forgot my Freshman English class another student criticized something written by Guy Debord because "he was talking about driving around paris in the 1930's, they didnt have cars in france in the 1930's" [slaps forehead].

[Det_ard]

Minimum standards of 17 on the ACT [[27th percentile, 73% of test takers get better than a 17 score) and a B- GPA are pretty low, leading to all the required remediation. There are some sharp students and competitive degree programs at WSU but they're a distinct minority. The overarching reputation of the school is not great locally, and it has virtually no reputation outside a 200 mile radius, except for a few established programs.

I understand the argument of it being a university with an "urban mission", but based on grad rates its not even doing that very well.

[j to the jeremy]

As a current student at Wayne, I can say the issues raised here matter more in lower level classes, general requirements, etc. As the classes become more advanced, it takes on a kind of "small college" atmosphere, especially in the Social Sciences. I have had the same 40-50 people in my major classes for a couple years now, and it actually helps. The coursework is not as demanding as at U of M, but as someone getting an Urban Studies degree, I can't think of any better place to study the field, as long as you can push yourself outside of class.

[SWMAP]

Well, I was pursuing a Master's degree in education at WSU and I was embarrassed by the ignorance of my fellow students in that department. Many of them could not speak intelligently and they could absolutely not write. They had no idea about how to do research and they relied on anecdotes. I did not stay there. That's when i realized that education was not a real profession.

On the other hand, the science schools did and still do have terrific reputations. Wayne's medical school is very respected.

[Augustiner]

I understand the argument of it being a university with an "urban mission", but based on grad rates its not even doing that very well.

I agree, but the conclusion I draw from that is that Wayne needs to do a better job of being what it is, not that it should reinvent itself as a "prestigious" university that competes with U of M for rich kids from out of state. I don't think a low GPA or an unimpressive ACT score necessarily proves that someone lacks the intellectual capacity to succeed in college; there are a lot of reasons why people fuck up in high school or do poorly on standardized tests, and not all of them have to do with being stupid. I do agree that Wayne could potentially do a better job of weeding out people who actually are stupid, but I don't think a minimum GPA or ACT standard is the best way to accomplish that given the nature of Wayne's student body.

[Gistok]

Do those statistics take into consideration all of the people like myself who started at WSU, and eventually transfered and graduated elsewhere? I got my BS and MS from UofD Mercy, but had my first 2 years at WSU.

Not everyone who starts there simply drops out... some go elsewhere, for whatever reasons...

[GOAT]

What about those who have english as a second language; Poor people who work to support thier family while in high school? Yeah lets keep kicking those who are down a little bit more.

If the students are not going to a certain school because they let others in with lowers marks then fuck them. I am sure in their greatness they should get accepted anywhere.

[maxx]

There was a report recently on for-profit colleges like U. of Phoenix and Everest that survive on student ed. grants and deliver poor education. Without the remedial programs of WCCC and WSU, poor students are left with only these crooks who charge exorbitant fees.

If a student has grown up in a family where substandard English is spoken and no one reads, his/her deficiencies in language and lack of information cannot be overcome in a semester or two if the student saw no reason to deal with them before college. Kids from Detroit that I met either had plans to make money in the music industry or as athletes or they were too depressed to have any plans.

[Zacha341]

Good point. There are articulation agreements out there such as HFCC and U of M Dearborn. Many students successfully take advantage of this and go on to complete their four-year degree.

There is - WCCCD. Wayne State SHOULD have higher standards. The remedial teaching should take place at community colleges - that is one of their functions. Perhaps WSU and WCCCD could make some kind of arrangement?

[davewindsor]

The low admissions standards at WSU drives better students away. A major city ought to have a top-quality university as well as less competitive colleges. Perhaps a UM-Detroit but with standards closer to UM-AA than UM-Flint or UM-Dearborn.

Letting lots of weak students in devalues the learning of other students, and isn't really fair to the weaker student who'll pay a bunch of money to WSU for a while, until they drop out without a degree. What's 2.5 years of WSU do for you on your resume?

There needs to be an institution for the less-qualified student [[Baker, Davenport?) but WSU needs to figure out if it wants to be a top research institution or, as the student quoted in the article said, a really large community college.

I disagree. If a university wants to attract smarter students, they need to offer more scholarships and grants to applicants with higher GPAs, not reduce overall enrollments by raising entrance standards. That's what's going to bring them in. If someone is motivated to learn and has the smarts, how will their learning be devalued?

The weak students pay the bills and then drop out, so you don't need to worry about poor standards of university graduates of WSU. If you decrease the number of students you let in, then you've reduced the economies of scale and their net tuition costs for the smarter students must be higher to make up for the difference increasing each students' total costs of learning, so why would they go to WSU when they can go to another university that rewards them with better grants and scholarships?

Who you let into the university and who you give a degree to are two completely different things, so why change the status quo and make things worse?

[mwilbert]

It seems to me that if Wayne admits someone who isn't adequately prepared to do college work, that isn't doing that person a big favor. It is one thing if they have some limited deficiency, but if people need substantial remedial work they should do it at a community college where it costs less. Many of my relatives who are or were ready for college work went to community college first just because of the cost savings.

[artds]

UM-Dearborn essentially is UM-Detroit. Major university systems aim to serve major metropolitan areas. They don't set up small satellite schools in every other community on the map. You'll never see a UM-Detroit for as long as there's a UM-Dearborn.

I could see MSU creating a satellite campus in Detroit [[a real one, not that little music school on Woodward) or somewhere else in metro Detroit, but not UM.

[gnome]

Rev. David Murry is a proud grad as is Otis Mathis.

Right there is ample evidence to support the raising of admission standards.

[Scottathew]

It seems to me that if Wayne admits someone who isn't adequately prepared to do college work, that isn't doing that person a big favor. It is one thing if they have some limited deficiency, but if people need substantial remedial work they should do it at a community college where it costs less. Many of my relatives who are or were ready for college work went to community college first just because of the cost savings.

I agree. It's a little bit of a catch-22 though, because Detroit Public Schools does not prepare students for much of anything. The kids still have no concept of the the most simple parts of speech, such as verb tense. If someone is going around saying "I is", "We is", "You is" and also doesn't know the difference between "they" and "their", how are they going to succeed in college? They can't even speak English.

But I agree with mwilbert, those kids can do their DPS induced remediation at a community college, not at a university.

[justanotherboy]

"Wayne State is more of a big community college"

This couldn't be more true. Unless you are in the top 10% of your class at WSU - your degree is worthless compared to other universities.

[belleislerunner]

Slight Modification: Unless you have a 3.5 GPA from any university - your degree is worthless. If you have the grades, the institution is irrelevant. Talent always rises to the top.

[Baselinepunk]

WSU was my first choice for undergrad and graduate. Both times [[in different programs) I stayed one year then transferred as fast as I could. I think this is good start but this approach does not investigate how instruction [[both staff and methods) has had a role in poor graduation rates. There are some great instructors and advisers there but it seems they are becoming a smaller minority over recent years. There is no doubt that some students should have better skills when they get to this level but I wonder just how WSU can support it's current "way of life" at the top end without having to raise tuition rates even further to make up for the loss in enrollment.

[maxx]

What is your definition of a good instructor?

[rhythmc]

There is - WCCCD. Wayne State SHOULD have higher standards. The remedial teaching should take place at community colleges - that is one of their functions. Perhaps WSU and WCCCD could make some kind of arrangement?

I think this is the most sensible solution as well. Wayne State is a university and it should aim to become world class and try to rise to the level of U of M or MSU. As it stands, the university admits far too many mediocre students [[not saying all WSU students are mediocre). The university would be better served working with the school districts that send many of the students that fail to help with planning curriculums that will make the students more college ready. Additionally, they could work with the community colleges to provide remedial courses on a deferred admission basis and students can start at WSU the following summer or fall. I think Oakland and Eastern should be a part of this too.

[Parkguy]

Wayne State is classified as a Carnegie Research University, Very High Level of Research. That is the highest classification, and is the same classification given to U-M Ann Arbor and MSU. Wayne is also included among the top 500 universities worldwide, at least on lists I've seen. They must be doing something right.

Added info:
Michigan has four universities that fall into the top 500: U-M is in the top 25, MSU in the top 100. WSU is around 300, and Michigan Tech is in the 400--500 range. That is outstanding for an area of this size.