Are You Prepared, Pt. IV [The Gas Prices Thread]

**laphoque** · March-03-11, 08:17 PM

Dude who said that fuel prices are lower where there are refineries, what of the Marathon refinery in Del Ray and the BP refinery across the river? Once/if DRIC is built you'll be able to see them well.

**canuck** · March-03-11, 08:47 PM

Regular gas is 1,33$ canadian a litre or 5,58 a US gallon here in Montreal and it yo-yos like this a lot from a buck 16 to a buck 35. There is a lot of pressure in eastern Canada to develop shale gas resources, and environmentalists are calling for a moratorium. The government refuses to stop exploration. I guess our government doesnt mind the gouging so much because folks will want nothing more than a cheaper supply if it happens. I know New York state has a moratorium.

**socks_mahoney** · March-03-11, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Johnnny5

CNG is the quick [[And clean) solution. Why on Earth Natural Gas is not being pushed by Washington is beyond me. We have vast domestic reserves, it's safer, produces fewer greenhouse gases and engines designed to run on gasoline can be converted so new vehicles would not be necessary in many intances. It's a win for everyone except Big Oil and OPEC.

May I suggest you do some research into the emerging way to mine natural gas: "fracking". It involves flooding cavaties within the earth to force the gas out. Problem is, the gas goes out everywhere.

Kitchen sinks turn on and the water can be lit on fire, explosions happen beneath fields, and most frighteningly, all of Pittsburgh drinking water now has an unknown and possibly dangerous level of radiation in it from fracking in the applachians and other areas of pennsylvania. it can even cause earthquakes or other seismic events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraul...health_effects

Natural gas is like "clean" coal and every other carbon based energy form. They are a farce. What we need is a built environment that is more energy efficient and solar and wind power to back it up. Bottom line.

**Johnnny5** · March-03-11, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by socks_mahoney

May I suggest you do some research into the emerging way to mine natural gas: "fracking". It involves flooding cavaties within the earth to force the gas out. Problem is, the gas goes out everywhere.

Kitchen sinks turn on and the water can be lit on fire, explosions happen beneath fields, and most frighteningly, all of Pittsburgh drinking water now has an unknown and possibly dangerous level of radiation in it from fracking in the applachians and other areas of pennsylvania. it can even cause earthquakes or other seismic events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraul...health_effects

Natural gas is like "clean" coal and every other carbon based energy form. They are a farce. What we need is a built environment that is more energy efficient and solar and wind power to back it up. Bottom line.

Perhaps I should have used the word "cleaner" instead, but the point still remains the same. We have abundant reserves of natural gas, and it's a ready to use alternative to imported oil [[The widespread use of wind and solar energy in transportation may be decades away). Also when criticizing the environmental impacts of natural gas drilling you also have to consider the alternative environmental impacts of oil drilling as well [[Gulf oil spill forgotten already?)

**3WC** · March-04-11, 12:50 PM

Socks, you're the one who should do some research into this issue. NG is not mined. It is produced conventionally through a well bore, typically several thousand fee below the surface. Fraccing [[the correct spelling) does not "flood cavities to force the gas out." Fraccing creates cavities in the rock that permit the gas to flow through the dense rock, shale ,to the well bore where it rises to the surface naturally. I have never heard that gas or oil causes explosions under ground, Wherever did you get such an idea?

I know that the movie "Gasland" showed gas coming from a faucet and catching fire. That happens a lot of places, including St. Clare County, north of Detroit, where I used to drill in the '60s. There, shallow natural gas naturally seeps to the surface in many areas, regardless of any drilling activity. I have seen it happen many times. Across the river in Petrolia, Canada, there have been oil seepages at the surface for centuries. Even toiday, one can walk across a field in the area and see many "tar balls." Nature at work.

We will soon have a glut of natural gas, it's true. Good old Nanny Pelosi has long stated that we must use more natural gas in an effort to "stop using fossil fuels." She's an idiot. Natural gas is being used as transportion fuel in many areas that can afford to do so, mostly in municipal vehicles. I produced about 1.5 millions gallons of propane, butane and natural gasoline per year the past 5 years. Those are natural gas liquids extracted from the natural gas by pressurization and cooling. It's then returned to a gaseous form for use. I did an extensive study to determine the adviseability of converting all of our p/up trucks to propane. The cost was $6500 per vehicle. Propane causes little or no engine wear. It's harder to start a vehicle in colder weather using propane. However, I found that the trucks wore out way before the engines, and we would never recover our costs. Many companies in TX have tried it and it's a very iffy situation even when one produces their own propane.

Natural gas is easy to transport but difficult to store. In MI for example, most natural gas used there is pipelined to the state from the Gulf. There is not near enough pipeline capacity to suplly your current needs except for the fact that MI has an abundance of depleted oil and gas fields where huge volumes of natural gas are stored during the summer months until it is used in the winter.

There are many more reasons why natural gas is not more widely used than it is. The reasons involve infrastructure cost, storage problems. and safety issues. I expect there will be an increase in natural gas usage but it will be a long time coming, and more expensive than the fuel we use today.

**ordinary** · March-04-11, 01:43 PM

MichCon just built a CNG station at the corner of Allen Road and Greenfield and bought a bunch of CNG vehicles. I think that for commuter transportation, natural gas would be an ideal fuel. But I wonder if it would ever catch on for longer trips because of lack of infrastructure and/or vehicle range.

**Johnnny5** · March-04-11, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by ordinary

MichCon just built a CNG station at the corner of Allen Road and Greenfield and bought a bunch of CNG vehicles. I think that for commuter transportation, natural gas would be an ideal fuel. But I wonder if it would ever catch on for longer trips because of lack of infrastructure and/or vehicle range.

The lack of filling stations is an issue, but there are already vehicles on the road that have dual fuel tanks and the ability to run on either CNG or gasoline. Even is CNG was used solely for fleet and commercial vehicles the reduction to our trade imbalance would be substantial. We import about 1/2 of our oil from oversees, but almost 100% of our natural gas is produced domestically or imported from Canada.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · March-04-11, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Who want to pay 5.00 for a gallon of gas? Surely folks who live WAY WAY WAY out from 50 mile Rd. willl have to. They have to get to work, shop and play in merry merry automobile. You all can go right ahead and blame the Arab conflict in the Middle east or some oil corps fo them mess. There's NOTHING you all could do to stop their black gold mess. Go buy a hybrid. I think the Chevy VOLT would be a likely good ideal to save tons of money on gas.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

I as watch the glory days of the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang's going to the junk heap!

Neda, I miss you so.

Yeah right, I'm not going to pay $42,000.00 dollars for a Volt. The price of that car is ridiculous, I don't see how anyone would buy one, I don't care what kind of mileage it gets. GM is raping people.

**stasu1213** · March-04-11, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

http://detroitgasprices.com/

How is this a uniquely Detroit issue?

This is uniquely a Detroit issue for if Detroit had it's shit together years ago with it's transportation people would had the option of riding the bus instead of going into debt owning a car. DDOT could had ranked in a lot of money if all of DDOT money didn't go into the general funds. A moronic move on behalf of city leaders at that time.New Yorkers and Chicagoans don't have to worry too much about gas prices for most of their residents catches the train, reliable busses, or subways. I sometimes hear people around the D talk that crap saying that ridership is down on the DDOT. That is total b.s. More people are catching the bus for the hike in gas prices or the lost of a car due to employement and high insurance. Have the money generated by DDOT through ridership go back into DDOT's fund. Decrease wait time and don't let crazy mentally ill acted people get on the bus and you will see DDOT will be the next best alternative than driving.
'.

**canuck** · March-05-11, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

This is uniquely a Detroit issue for if Detroit had it's shit together years ago with it's transportation people would had the option of riding the bus instead of going into debt owning a car. DDOT could had ranked in a lot of money if all of DDOT money didn't go into the general funds. A moronic move on behalf of city leaders at that time.New Yorkers and Chicagoans don't have to worry too much about gas prices for most of their residents catches the train, reliable busses, or subways. I sometimes hear people around the D talk that crap saying that ridership is down on the DDOT. That is total b.s. More people are catching the bus for the hike in gas prices or the lost of a car due to employement and high insurance. Have the money generated by DDOT through ridership go back into DDOT's fund. Decrease wait time and don't let crazy mentally ill acted people get on the bus and you will see DDOT will be the next best alternative than driving.
'.

I wonder, does the city of Detroit have the right to add an extra tax above the state and federal tax on fuel? They have started doing this here to help pay for transit operation costs.

**erikd** · March-06-11, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

I wonder, does the city of Detroit have the right to add an extra tax above the state and federal tax on fuel? They have started doing this here to help pay for transit operation costs.

That is an interesting question. It depends on the state tax laws. Local municipalities in Michigan have the right to add extra income and property taxes, but I doubt that they have the right to add extra gas or sales taxes, because I have never heard of a local municipality in Michigan even considering the addition of these taxes.

**reddog289** · March-06-11, 03:51 AM

Mass Transit ain't gonna get me to work and back.I will change my plugs, keep track of the air in my tires and deal with it. Besides gives me an excuse to stay away from my cousin in Northern Michigan.

**Hermod** · March-06-11, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by reddog289

Mass Transit ain't gonna get me to work and back.I will change my plugs, keep track of the air in my tires and deal with it. Besides gives me an excuse to stay away from my cousin in Northern Michigan.

The response to increasing gas prices will not b everybody rushing down to buy a condo in a failed inner city skyscraper so they can ride the magic choo choo up and down three miles of Woodward.

People will buy less desirable cars [[econoboxes) with higher MPG. They will think twice before going out in their car for shopping [[consolidate trips, go to a closer store). There might be quite an in-fill of convenience stores and smaller grocery stores in suburbia.

**suzspot** · March-06-11, 09:26 AM

the price of gas in the US has always been lower than other free world countries. In Toronto right now gas is about 5.45 a gallon..in the British Islands it is probably almost double that. I guess you guys wont have to worry too much about it ever going as high as in Canada..your taxes on gas isn't as high..that is how we don't have as many nasty potholes and have our snow plowed off the highways so quickly.

**pffft** · March-06-11, 12:47 PM

Suzspot,

It's an oddly American quirk...an assistant manager at McDonald's will vote Republican, hate unions and rail about taxes, and yet magical thinking means, he'll also expect the roads to be plowed and potholes fixed.

It's what happens with a crumbling educational system...

**English** · March-06-11, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by pffft

Suzspot,

It's an oddly American quirk...an assistant manager at McDonald's will vote Republican, hate unions and rail about taxes, and yet magical thinking means, he'll also expect the roads to be plowed and potholes fixed.

It's what happens with a crumbling educational system...

Thanks for summing up our present-day foreign and domestic policy. There are those who count on the lumpenproletariat failing to put two and two together.

bartock · March-07-11, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by pffft

Suzspot,

It's an oddly American quirk...an assistant manager at McDonald's will vote Republican, hate unions and rail about taxes, and yet magical thinking means, he'll also expect the roads to be plowed and potholes fixed.

It's what happens with a crumbling educational system...

A bit like when some Democratic folks complain when taxes get cut for evil corporations. This is wrong, yet when a transient industry made up of corporations gets 42% of everything it spends back in the form of a subsidity, it's wonderful. Or, when some Walmart and sprawl hating Democratic urban farmer complains about...

There's irony, ignorance and hypocrisy with everybody on all sides. It tends to dilute the arguments when we get into the loud, gun-toting, beer guzzlin' confederate flag wearing, Glen Beck Republicans versus the snarky, pot smoking, tree-hugging, money and job-hatin' Keith Olberman Democrats.

BTW - Very good points, Hermod.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-07-11, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The response to increasing gas prices will not b everybody rushing down to buy a condo in a failed inner city skyscraper so they can ride the magic choo choo up and down three miles of Woodward.

No, they'll just move to Chicago instead.

Oh wait--they're ALREADY doing that!

**Detroitnerd** · March-07-11, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

No, they'll just move to Chicago instead.

Oh wait--they're ALREADY doing that!

Yup. There they go. The oldsters justify the present in many different ways, while the young increasingly just throw up their hands and say, "Fuck it, I'm out of here." Sounds like a great plan to continue to pursue ... so we can have suburbs that are full of aging empty-nesters and vacant properties because they are in such oversupply in this region.

thatguy123 · March-07-11, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Yeah right, I'm not going to pay $42,000.00 dollars for a Volt. The price of that car is ridiculous, I don't see how anyone would buy one, I don't care what kind of mileage it gets. GM is raping people.

You and everyone else isn't paying that extremely laughable price. They only sold 281 Volts last month. What a joke

**ghettopalmetto** · March-07-11, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

Yeah right, I'm not going to pay $42,000.00 dollars for a Volt. The price of that car is ridiculous, I don't see how anyone would buy one, I don't care what kind of mileage it gets. GM is raping people.

Yet people don't bat an eye paying the same amount of money for a Suburban Assault Vehicle that will actually cost them *more* in gas and insurance.

You don't like the Volt? Fine, don't buy it. But there's no need to extrapolate your personal tastes to 310 million other people.

**Stinger4me** · March-07-11, 10:42 AM

i know this is not the answer, but we should slow down and cut down on fuel consumption. That INCLUDES semi-trucks. We have very little speed enforcement. We certainly don't set too good of an example. I wonder when the hunyoks who drive the massive trucks and pass me at 75 mph on the freeway get the money for their fuel.

**ordinary** · March-07-11, 03:21 PM

Where can I find good information about where the break-even point is regarding switching from gasoline to E85? A couple of years ago I used E85 throuhout the summer and the minivan ran great but mileage was lower and I don't think there was any advantage. But now I'm noticing that E85 is becoming more widely available and there are price differences of 20 cents or more per gallon between gasoline and E85 and I'm wondering.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-07-11, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ordinary

Where can I find good information about where the break-even point is regarding switching from gasoline to E85? A couple of years ago I used E85 throuhout the summer and the minivan ran great but mileage was lower and I don't think there was any advantage. But now I'm noticing that E85 is becoming more widely available and there are price differences of 20 cents or more per gallon between gasoline and E85 and I'm wondering.

Gas mileage depends on a host of individual factors, including the make of the vehicle, its maintenance history, tire air pressure, weight of passengers and cargo, speed driven, driving habits [[fast or slow acceleration, for one), volume of traffic, et cetera. Any kind of generalized data you can find is almost certainly going to be inapplicable to your situation.

Your best bet is to conduct your own scientific research by keeping careful records, using both gas, and then E85 [[or vice-versa).

DetroitDad · March-07-11, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The response to increasing gas prices will not b everybody rushing down to buy a condo in a failed inner city skyscraper so they can ride the magic choo choo up and down three miles of Woodward.

People will buy less desirable cars [[econoboxes) with higher MPG. They will think twice before going out in their car for shopping [[consolidate trips, go to a closer store). There might be quite an in-fill of convenience stores and smaller grocery stores in suburbia.

No, many are stuck where they are, thanks to underwater mortgages. Even more will be underwater when the additional resets begin this Spring/Summer.

It's mainly the Millennials without excessive loans, some upper income individuals who are able to sell, and the bankrupt who will be inhabiting the greater Downtown area. This is going to become common sense for them when they realize it's really the only way to maintain a comfortable standard of living.