Anyone notice? It's feeling pretty old around here...

[Buy American]

PS: I don't think you are disrespectful. I am downright mad that we are being forced to pay for the boomer's greed and glut. Everything they have, they have because of the investments and sacrifices of the past generation. So what will we inherit? Debt? A poorly built mcmansion in former cornfields and woodlands? A wasted planet with nothing left to consume? Crumbling infrastructure? Fallen empires and governments? Corrupt systems? What will they be leaving us? I'm mad! I'm mad when I look in my daughter's eyes and have the strangest feeling that the days of my children will be harder than my days, thanks to government/Wall Street's subsidized greed and corruption. I'm mad..... sigh.

Before I respond could you tell me just who you are mad at?

[belleislerunner]

English wins the Quote of the Day "Don't try so hard to be cool, try harder to be content."

Life isn't about who has the best job, works for the coolest Firm, goes to the hippest B'ham bars or has behind the scenes VIP access at Roast. Life is the journey. The people. The stories. If you spend your life looking for happiness in Detroit, Chicago, DC or NYC - you won't find it. Happiness is a state of soul, not a matter of circumstances.

Many of these discussions are nothing more than thinned cries for validation of the decisions we've made. We crave the acceptance of others. I moved from Michigan because I couldn't find a job. I stayed in Michigan because I am not a quitter. I went to an out of state college because I had the money and grades. I went to an urban college because I wanted to interact with the economic/social disconnect.

PS - While I do agree with your observation purely statistically - I think the choice of venue largely impacts that perception. Go to a Five Guys, Chipotle or Potbelly's at 4:00 on a Sunday and you'll see a different demographic than a Coneys, Olga's or Old Country Buffet. Go to a Ferndale, Royal Oak or Birmingham and you'll think differently than St Clair Shores, Roseville and Harper Woods.

[sumas]

Funny that, Detroit Nerd. I am a liberal, never fired but like the wit.

I am of two minds on this debate, my eldest swore he would never settle here. Guess what? He's back, good job, new wife. Just bought his 1st home.

As an almost official senior now, [[what constitutes sr?) Not having youth gangs running around make for a peaceful life. Last litle thugs that roved through my neighborhood were throwing rocks at a neighbors dog. Wouldn't stop, I went out and told them to move on, my husband did the same. Funny, my Mom 87, at the time went over and wagged a finger and they listened to her.

Diversity is actually very critical.

Don't laugh at old, cause you'll get there, if you're lucky. The best neighborhoods and establishments lure a nice blend

Remember, being at Hart Plaza and some idiot performer said, everyone's here but your mother. My kids were somewhere in the crowd with their friends. I think they cringed a bit, cause we were there too with our friends.

Old does not mean stagnent.

Funny, this old fart could tell you hot places to be if you are 20/30's crowd.

See you at the Dirty Show if you have any hoopspa [[sp)

[casscorridor]

There isn't really the option of urban living in Michigan, at least not in a major city. Real estate agents will try to tell you Ferndale is "urban" even though it follows a conventional suburban model. The closest thing is Midtown which follows a more organic urban model. But it is half-empty and not even that dense in population, and most blocks seem desolate minus Warren/Cass and Willis/Cass corners.

Detroit must offer true uran living within the core to retain younger educated people.

[Detroitnerd]

Maybe it's no coincidence that Hamtramck is the most dense and diverse city in the state...

[Vox]

Maybe it\\\'s no coincidence that Hamtramck is the most dense and diverse city in the state...

Density only because of the 2 family flats that are all over the city. And the simple fact that it is not Detroit. The surrounding commercial districts had gone the way of the dinosaur long ago, if you have not noticed. The only plus to Hamtramck as a city is the bar scene. Of course, if you are a drunk, that appeals to you. But other than that? Not so much. Maybe a couple of restaurants now and again but nothing remarkable, or not easily obtainable elsewhere. And I should know having lived in Hamtramck and lived in the bar scene too. It gets old. Especially fighting people for parking spaces.

[iheartthed]

Dnerd, they go to those places because there are JOBS there no matter what Richard Florida says. if Chicago had 35% unemployment, was insolvent, lead the country in every misery index, and it's one major industry was imploding, no kid with a liberal arts degree would be moving to chicago on a whim like they do now. They know no matter what they'll be able to get a roomate, some sort of subsistence job [[or jobs) to cover rent and living expenses [[or those expenses which mom and dad arent helping out with) , while they pursue what ever it is they think they're going to be when they grow up.

Has Chicago ever had 35% unemployment? I know it got bad there after the collapse of the domestic steel industry. I'm not sure if it was ever Detroit bad though... But here's what I do know about Chicago: Chicago stopped growing at a meaningful rate a couple of decades before the growth machine shut off in Detroit after having outgrown Detroit for most of the two cities simultaneous periods of growth*. Yet Chicago has also been able to stabilize itself, but for some reason Detroit has not [[city and region included since the Detroit area was projected to be one of the few major metro areas to actually lose population this past decade). Here are the growth rates for both cities over the last 160 or so years:

Detroit Chicago
1850 130.93% 570.30%
1860 117.04% 274.40%
1870 74.44% 166.50%
1880 46.20% 68.30%
1890 76.96% 118.60%
1900 38.77% 54.40%
1910 63.02% 28.70%
1920 113.34% 23.60%
1930 57.86% 25.00%
1940 3.49% 0.60%
1950 13.93% 6.60%
1960 -9.70% −1.9%
1970 -9.35% −5.2%
1980 -20.52% −10.7%
1990 -14.58% −7.4%
2000 -7.46% 4.00%

*Contrary to popular belief, both cities really came into being simultaneously after the construction of the Erie Canal, and Detroit was actually larger than Chicago until the 1840s.

Why is it that a region like Detroit has had so much trouble reinventing itself? If you look at Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. -- some of Detroit's "old gritty city" peers -- their economies have fundamentally regenerated themselves over the past two generations. The predominant industry in Chicago 40 years ago is not the same as the predominant industry today. On the other hand, the predominant industry in Detroit 40 years ago is the same as it is today.

Other Detroit peers with stagnant or declining economies -- Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis -- suffer from much the same lack of urban investment and lackluster infrastructure as Detroit. They also tend to be located in regions where the majority of the regions wealth is concentrated outside of the city limits, like Detroit. Pittsburgh is the only exception that comes to the top of my mind, but then again that city has also managed to significantly reverse course over the past decade or so unlike its Rust Belt peers. [[I also can't think of an example of a city where there is still a significant amount of wealth within the central city, but the regional economy is faltering...)

So why is it that some old gritty cities are able to remake themselves and others haven't? And those cities who have remade their economies seemingly did it without the local government leadership promising to wave a magic wand and create a new industry [[which should sound absurd to anyone who bothers to put that into historical context). Does Detroit's inability to attract a significant amount of new blood to the area have something to do with the economic rut that the region is in now?

From my point of view, it's hard for me to argue that the two are unrelated and maybe this all has something to do with Detroit's "young people" exodus.

[sumas]

Just took one son to airport. LA then Manhatten. Sounds good. Glad our youth can be mobil.

Still don't understand why younger folk can't find places to go to see "people like them" maybe try reading Metro Times or Detroit Monitor or maybe??? just read?

Still lots of venues for the younger folk.

[Pam]

I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing.

Over 40 now, but lived in S.E. Mich. as a twenty and thirty something and never felt like there was "nothing to do."

[Tig3rzhark]

A liberal is a conservative who's been fired.

A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged.

I will have to say that those are the best quotes that I've seen on this forum to date.

[laurin]

Over 40 now, but lived in S.E. Mich. as a twenty and thirty something and never felt like there was "nothing to do."

In all fairness, that would be 10/20 years ago. The economy was a different animal then as well.

Only a handful of people that I graduated with in 2003 stayed in the state- most went to major cities like Atlanta, Chicago, or just returned to their home states. I don't think that it's the inability to read as one helpful poster pointed out, but lack of a real community of young professionals/graduates to pull from.

Although a statement that I probably use too much "no matter where you go there you are" applies a bit here as well, it cannot be denied that more attractive venues for the younger generation exist elsewhere. The 'look harder' mantra is going to fall on deaf ears when they can easily just pick up and move elsewhere to a more receptive environment.

[Hermod]

Sort of along the line of discussion with this thread:

http://chronicle.com/article/Adults-...ees-in/125995/


This is a US map with county by county data on percentage of folks with college degrees.

Lot of fun to play with as you can do it for everyone, men, women, white, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

You hover your mouse over a county and the percentage pops up.

Washtenaw and Oakland are well educated, Macomb less so.

Leelanau [[up in the little finger) is highly educated.

Midland does well.

[Pam]

In all fairness, that would be 10/20 years ago

But the types of things we used to do are still around. See my orginal post.

The economy was a different animal then as well.

Michigan has had assorted downturns every few years of my adult life it seems like. I had friends leave for jobs after college in the 80s.

[laurin]

But the types of things we used to do are still around. See my orginal post.



Michigan has had assorted downturns every few years of my adult life it seems like. I had friends leave for jobs after college in the 80s.

You didn't list what they were [[unless I just completely missed a post which is entirely possible)

[wazootyman]

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

A wasteland in your opinion, perhaps. I like living here. I've traveled a fair bit and found that most anywhere I've gone has required a car. Many of the places had public transportation, but the only domestic location I've been where I felt I absolutely didn't need a car was NYC. I guess my point is that I understand public transportation is a big deal to you, but it's not a deal-breaker for everyone.

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi? Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually) For some reason the aging boomers in this region never really got that. Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights! Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

My wife and I are about 30. Happily residing in Livonia. We go out a lot [[perhaps too much, after a recent review of where our money goes). Sometimes locally, sometimes RO or Ferndale, and more often than not, in Detroit. There's always a new restaurant, bar, show or event to check out. I guess I've never been bored or thought "there's nothing to do" as one poster said.

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

I wish people would stop saying this. Both my present and past employer are looking to hire 25-50 people, each. Engineers, mostly. My wife's company [[rather small) is looking to hire 5 people - which would nearly quadruple its size.

Maybe those saying "there are no jobs" should rephrase that to "I don't have the skills that are currently in demand" [[despite the fact that the government has all but given away free college education the last few years). This isn't necessarily directed at you, DetroitPole, so don't take it personally. I just happen to know quite a few unemployed/underemployed people [[not all who live in this area) that refuse to go back to school to boost their career, but have NO issue complaining about what they see as a lousy job market.

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents.

I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

[Hermod]

I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

My son lives in a subdivision near 22 Mile and Heydenreich Road. His sub is sort of junior McMansions. He is in his early forties and most of his neighbors are that age or less. His kids are both in high school.

Course none of his neighbors are the "arts, music, and culture" crowd.

Last time I was up there, I enjoyed a few drinks at the Waldenburg Bar with a few members of the blue collar Detroit diaspora. They were very hospitable to a stranger who just strolled in through the door.

[sumas]

Can anyone stay on focus.

The point of this thread was, what's in it for younger people to stick around.

I challenge them to find focus and create new venues.

Leaving is easy, Staying is hard.

Sumas

[BrushStart]

Although a statement that I probably use too much "no matter where you go there you are" applies a bit here as well, it cannot be denied that more attractive venues for the younger generation exist elsewhere. The 'look harder' mantra is going to fall on deaf ears when they can easily just pick up and move elsewhere to a more receptive environment.

Exactly. There is clearly a problem with the status quo, otherwise there wouldn't be threads like this [[admittedly I started it), but based on the responses it's apparent I am not alone. Instead of debating whether Michigan has an issue attracting young people, we should be talking about how to make the place more accommodating to them.

When I think about places that I would consider moving, they all have these things in common or a combination thereof [[in no particular order):

1. Vibrant urban environment
2. Lots of entertainment and nightlife
3. Mass transit
4. An interactive atmosphere
5. Fast-paced/hustle & bustle
6. A diversified business/economic environment
7. A diversity of people and cultures
8. Aspiring/ambitious attitude among the populous
9. Outdoor recreation/quality parks & public space
10. Positivity and optimism in the society
11. Concern for the overall well-being of the region
12. A range of housing options

On a scale of 1-10, [[assume NYC is the benchmark and scores a 10 for each criteria, and Nunapitchuk, Alaska scores straight zeros) here's how I'd rank Detroit :

1. Vibrant urban environment = 6.0
2. Lots of entertainment and nightlife = 8.5
3. Mass transit = 3.0
4. An interactive atmosphere = 6.5
5. Fast-paced/hustle & bustle = 5.5
6. A diversified business/economic environment = 4.5
7. A diversity of people and cultures = 7.0
8. Aspiring/ambitious/entrepreneurial attitude = 5.5
9. Outdoor recreation/quality parks & public space = 9.0
10. Positivity and optimism in the society = 3.5
11. Concern for the overall well-being of the region = 3.0
12. A variety of housing options = 5.0

Overall, Detroit scores 67/120. Not awful, but much room for improvement. Without thinking much about it, I think Chicago would rank somewhere around 100, which is important because Chicago seems to be Detroit's biggest competitor for young people. Mass transit could easily push Detroit into the mid-to-upper 70s. Detroit also has other perks that aren't counted, like ease of entry, cost of living, storied history, etc. So, that helps it close the gap. Detroit's strongest suits are entertainment and nightlife located downtown/Midtown and parks, which are helped big time by Campus Martius, the ever-expanding Riverwalk, and Belle Isle. If Detroit could just add 2-3 points in those other lacking factors, it would be a very attractive city to most young people I think.

[laurin]

Can anyone stay on focus.

The point of this thread was, what's in it for younger people to stick around.

I challenge them to find focus and create new venues.

Leaving is easy, Staying is hard.

Sumas

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but why would they stick around and build something new versus go to another area? How many new graduates say 'hey, let's go to this unfriendly area and make it more young friendly?' Especially when they can just move to another area as they do not necessarily have strong ties to the existing area.

Challenging is easy, finding a reason to take up the challenge is hard.

[Pam]

You didn't list what they were [[unless I just completely missed a post which is entirely possible)

On page one of the thread.

[iheartthed]

Maybe those saying "there are no jobs" should rephrase that to "I don't have the skills that are currently in demand" [[despite the fact that the government has all but given away free college education the last few years). This isn't necessarily directed at you, DetroitPole, so don't take it personally. I just happen to know quite a few unemployed/underemployed people [[not all who live in this area) that refuse to go back to school to boost their career, but have NO issue complaining about what they see as a lousy job market.

This is an absurd statement. I know plenty of well educated people who could not find work in the Detroit area, and it wasn't for lack of trying. I personally had friends who spent months looking for work in Detroit to no avail. One of those friends moved to NYC and had found work in a matter of days.

I don't doubt that, but I can offer contrary anecdotal evidence: In my Livonia neighborhood, there are at least 4 young couples within an couple houses down either way. The other houses have middle-aged parents [[with or without children still living with them). Most of the elderly that lived here when I moved in have passed away or moved into assisted living facilities. I'd say in my little slice of Metro Detroit, the median age is probably about 35.

This actually brings up another point. The friends I have who were able to stay in Detroit and find work have almost all have married and started having kids. For my friends who moved to other cities with a more active social scene, getting married and having kids does not sound appealing at this stage in life. So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years. The Detroit area might be a great place to raise kids [[if you have a job), but it's not a very appealing place to be a young single. Other regions, like Chicago, can offer both lifestyles.

[Pam]

So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years

Can we please stop this ridiculous statement that there is "nothing to do"? I'm still waiting to hear back from Chitaku about what is missing.

[bailey]

]Has Chicago ever had 35% unemployment? I know it got bad there after the collapse of the domestic steel industry. I'm not sure if it was ever Detroit bad though...

That was my point. The statement was that "young" people are going to Chicago because IT'S CHICAGO [[said breathlessly and starry-eyed). My point was that Chicago wouldn't be such a draw if its economy resembled Detroit ...mass transit or not

yet Chicago has also been able to stabilize itself, but for some reason Detroit has not [[city and region included since the Detroit area was projected to be one of the few major metro areas to actually lose population this past decade).....
Why is it that a region like Detroit has had so much trouble reinventing itself? If you look at Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. -- some of Detroit's "old gritty city" peers -- their economies have fundamentally regenerated themselves over the past two generations.

Chicago has a huge knowledge based economy. There are..what? 5 major and a host of minor colleges and universities in and immediately around Chicago? U of Chicago, DePaul, Lyola Northwestern, UofI Chicago...etc. Most of them with nationally ranked undergrad and Grad programs. Boston, Philly, NYC...etc have virtually the entire Ivy league system and some of the most hard to get into colleges and universities in the country winding their way in and through them. I mean Philly alone... a city often compared to Detroit ....has an Ivy and several other major universities in and immediately around it. Imagine what Detroit would look like if MSU, Eastern, Oakland and UM were located IN Detroit along with UofD and Wayne? heck, just imagine if UofD and Wayne had most of their student body live on campus instead of communting.

Pittsburgh is the only exception that comes to the top of my mind, but then again that city has also managed to significantly reverse course over the past decade or so unlike its Rust Belt peers

. Again you have a huge knowledge based economy in Pittsburgh as well.. Carnegie Mellon, Duquesne, Pitt....etc. not to be repetative but stick 150k worth of residential students, and 10 jobs per student [[no idea if that is the multiplier...but I'm betting not far off) and where would Detroit be?

So why is it that some old gritty cities are able to remake themselves and others haven't?

Because they had a foundation under them. Detroit is a boom town that went bust. It doubled in size in 20 years based on the creation of one industry. It had nothing to fall back on and never did anything to diversify once the writing was on the wall. everyone just waited for the factories to open again.

And those cities who have remade their economies seemingly did it without the local government leadership promising to wave a magic wand and create a new industry [[which should sound absurd to anyone who bothers to put that into historical context).

Because the "old" industry never really left. Banking,education, finance, shipping, meat packings...etc. The "old" may have been eclipsed for a time, but after the massive industrial wave crested and receded, you still had an educated class and knowledge economy to keep the place from turning into a ghost town.

I don't think this is a bad place to be "young". there is tons to do and you'd be hard pressed to live as well as cheaply in any other major city or metro region. I think the young are underrepresented because there are just fewer opportunities for entry level jobs. Eventually the baby boomers will retire and die out and the region will get back to an equilibrium. the boom years were the abnormality around here.... today is the best we can hope for...especially with 8 years of republican rule coming that will gut any sort of funding for education or quality of life issues.

[Detroitnerd]

Density only because of the 2 family flats that are all over the city.

Umm ... no. Detroit's housing stock had plenty of two-family flats. What Detroit didn't have after the 1970s was a steady stream of immigrants to occupy those buildings. Hamtramck has immigrants coming in from Yemen, Bangladesh, Albania and many other countries. Without those people moving in, Hamtramck would not be as dense.

And the simple fact that it is not Detroit. The surrounding commercial districts had gone the way of the dinosaur long ago, if you have not noticed.

Yes, I live on a street that is half-Detroit, half-Hamtramck. The Hamtramck side of the street still has a few old ladies who grow gardenias in white buckets on their porches. The Detroit side of the street is rougher, more disinvested. But my friends and I live all over the border, some on one side, some on the other, spilling over from the density that is Hamtramck. Anyway, we are talking about Hamtramck, not Oakland Avenue, "if you have not noticed."

The only plus to Hamtramck as a city is the bar scene. Of course, if you are a drunk, that appeals to you. But other than that? Not so much. Maybe a couple of restaurants now and again but nothing remarkable, or not easily obtainable elsewhere. And I should know having lived in Hamtramck and lived in the bar scene too. It gets old. Especially fighting people for parking spaces.

OK, so you haven't been to Hamtramck in years and simply do not know what you're talking about. The Yemeni community has opened up several excellent grocery stores up and down Conant, even right on Caniff. Excellent new Indian restaurants include Zam-Zam and Aladdin Sweets, not to mention the Mexican food at Maria's Comida, or the premium coffees [[not to mention the art on display) at Cafe 1923. And you still have the wonderful Polish fare at all three Polish restaurants. In the last years, we've seen a few cool new resale shops open, two art spaces open. Some of the graying, old, outdated places are closing, ready for repurposing, including the awful Clock diner.

Hamtramck's licenses can now be transferred countywide, and with the Muslim population moving in, there is less demand for sale licenses. As for those bars, there are plenty of reasons to go to the bar, drunk or not. The stylish new Mars Bar on Joseph Campau is a specialty cocktail bar you'd expect to find in Royal Oak. Skipper's bar on Conant has a lively, thoughful crew of young folks and old-timers, nice diversity.

So, yes, you have no idea what Hamtramck looks like. Thanks for your message from the past, though. Reminds me how Hamtramck continues to improve, "if you hadn't noticed."

[JMarx]

This actually brings up another point. The friends I have who were able to stay in Detroit and find work have almost all have married and started having kids. For my friends who moved to other cities with a more active social scene, getting married and having kids does not sound appealing at this stage in life. So I think when millennials complain that there is "nothing to do" they are saying that there is nothing to do in Detroit if you don't want to get married and have two or three kids in the next 3 years. The Detroit area might be a great place to raise kids [[if you have a job), but it's not a very appealing place to be a young single. Other regions, like Chicago, can offer both lifestyles.

That's exactly it! I'm a young, educated professional...single no kids. And for those of us that don't want to rush into a life of being married with children, Detroit is not as friendly as cities like Chicago, NYC, etc. It's not that there is "nothing to do", but the hip urban cosmopolitan areas that we seek are simply not as prevalent as in other cities.

I think what most people on this forum want...a vibrant downtown, walkable neighborhoods, mass transit, an overall urban environment that could compliment the suburban offering that metro-Detroit provides...is exactly what the younger generation wants, and will get over time. [[and Detroit is already much better than 10yrs ago) Until then, it's just a bit harder...and many will happily move to Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, etc, where they can get that experience...