Anyone notice? It's feeling pretty old around here...

[Mr. Houdini]

There are things to do in the Metro Detroit Area, but not many things. There's the Detroit Zoo, the sports stadiums, concert venues, bars, malls. But that's about it. You could see it all in one year.

[p1acebo]

There are a plethora things to do, if you think there is nothing to do around here you are living under a rock.

And Mr. Houdini, you forgot to mention boating, skiing, hiking, winter festivals, beer festivals, plays, car shows, etc...

aside from that, you act like other metro areas offer much more than that, I disagree.

[sumas]

Go for it p1, so right, there is plenty to do and see.

[sumas]

Have to admit this thread has been vastly amusing. It's been all over the board on pro/cons old /young, diversity/opportunity. The list goes on.

This is an international port. Really, plenty to do for old and young folk.

Personally being to the older side of this conversation I enjoy just going for example to Mariners park.

Folks, much older then me, just fishing, BBQing, yes drinking too. The stories told are phenominal. I learn something new each time. The cameraderie there is facinating.

I take heart in each new endeavor that opens up here in the city

Detroityes is a good example. Labor of love, creative, a venue for artists, exchange of ideas, etc.

Detroit now, is an almost blank canvas for the young to paint. I love it ,when people seize an opportunity.

Detroit as dead, no f****** way! Sumas

[DetroitDad]

Many of you guys are taking the stance that a community is a place that one moves to, and not which one creates. Metro Detroit is following the American way, eh? Exploit and move on.

And those who think you can't live an urban life in Michigan or Detroit are, well... here, I posted my Day in Detroit post on my blog, for future reference.

[English]

^Exactly, DetroitDad. Here's a great video, "Live, Learn, Work & Play in Midtown Detroit" produced by Wayne State:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c559aQfogUY

Even if you're not part of the university, anyone can take advantage of the amenities in and around a campus.

[mwilbert]

Many of you guys are taking the stance that a community is a place that one moves to, and not which one creates.

For most people, that is exactly right. I've lived in a town which was run by Town Meetings--90% of the town doesn't care, unless there is some specific hot-button issue, after which they go back to not caring. Neighborhood associations, condo associations, they are all similar--in general a few hardy souls do everything. Most people aren't going to be urban pioneers, or redevelop apartment buildings, or start neighborhood businesses, or non-profits to keep the parks clean. Community creation depends upon the relatively small fraction of people who do those things. The other people contribute; they maintain their property, support local business, keep the streets lively, and hopefully behave themselves, but they don't create much.

[DetroitDad]

I love the video English!

mwilbert, I understand. But, that is consumerism or consumer culture you are describing. I'm trying not to sound too idealistic or kooky when I say; we stopped calling our citizens citizens, and started calling them consumers, which kind of implies that their only obligation to contribute, is to consume. On the other hand, a citizen is describing the member of a republic. Republics require informed people who show that they care by staying informed and building or maintaining their community into what they collectively decided it should be.

The City of Detroit is what happens when a locust style consumer culture moves on [[and they will always move on). What it is becoming is a reclaimed democratic republic, inhabited by citizens.

But the road itself – famously elegized as a path to self-enlightenment by the likes of Thoreau, Whitman and Kerouac – was a big disappointment.

Thanks to the one-two punch of globalization and recession, every last little Edward Hopper-esque mom-and-pop soda fountain or kitschy old motel seems to be history. Main streets that we dreamed might reveal a great hot dog stand or ice cream parlour were shuttered. The only nourishment to be had was the franchise variety, courtesy of Denny’s or McDonalds, the only accommodation a charmless Days Inn or Motel 6.

It doesn’t take long on the road to feel that the United States is no longer a place of discovery. Once a vigorous machine of production, it’s now a diabetic blob of consumption. To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, when it comes to what we used to imagine as America, there is no longer any there, there.

It would be hard to see any light in all of this, but for our accidental discovery of a phenomenon that turns out to be part of an emerging global trend.

You see it in cracks in the pavement and vacant city lots where weeds flourish. You see it in dead rural towns, converted by our absence, into country homes for raccoons and pigeons. As is evident in Detroit, where white flight, and now the crash of the auto industry, has shrunk the population and turned boarded-up neighbourhoods into wildlife refuges, nature is simply taking over.

-Image and quote from Karen von Hahn NOTICED: trends in the art of consumption.

[Frumoasa]

I agree. I have known many young families that have headed out to Texas, Georgia and the like. I am 25 but I am not really opposed to being around those of the older generations so although I notice it, it has never been an issue. I have maybe 2 other young families on my street but most everyone else is 45 or older. I think this is the nature of our shrinking population in the Detroit area.

[iheartthed]

Using the 2009 census estimates, I decided to see how the Detroit area measured against other top 30 major metropolitan areas age wise. Detroit is [[obviously) very heavy on baby boomers. It is in fact ranked 3rd in terms of the percentage of population in the 45 to 64 age range. That might explain a lot of the perception division amongst the forum members replying to this thread...

Rank by % of population greater 45 to 64:
1. Pittsburgh, PA
2. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH
3. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI
4. St. Louis, MO-IL \1
5. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH
6. Baltimore-Towson, MD
7. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA
8. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD
9. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
10. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL

Next, Detroit rounds out the top 10 for cities ranked by percentage of population 65+.

Rank by % of population 65 or greater:
1. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
2. Pittsburgh, PA
3. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL
4. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH
5. Orlando-Kissimmee, FL
6. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD
7. St. Louis, MO-IL \1
8. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA
9. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH
10. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI

Due to Detroit's high baby boomer count, the region comes in pretty high on the 45+ ranking.

Rank by % of population 45+:
1. Pittsburgh, PA
2. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
3. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH
4. Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL
5. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI
6. St. Louis, MO-IL \1
7. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH
8. Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD
9. Baltimore-Towson, MD
10. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA

On the other end of the spectrum, Detroit has a very low showing amongst the 18-44 crowd. In fact, it places in the bottom 5 of the top 30 metro areas...

Rank by % of pop. 18-44:
1. Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX
2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA
3. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA
4. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA
5. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA
6. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV
7. Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO
8. Las Vegas-Paradise, NV
9. Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX
10. San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA
...
26. St. Louis, MO-IL \1
27. Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI
28. Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL
29. Pittsburgh, PA
30. Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH

Detroit is middle of the pack by % of under 18, coming in at #16.

And Detroit comes out at 5th from last in terms of total % of population under 44.

Conclusion: Detroit does feel a little old because it is older.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...opulation.html

[RickBeall]

If you are feeling old because you are seeing young people ... that is a good thing!

[DetroitDad]

Maybe it's a good thing, maybe not.

While some are looking at the vitality the young give our society, it is important to remember that our elders are even more important. Our elders bring a lot of wisdom to the table, that we young people just don't yet have. This is the unspoken of crisis here in Michigan, the flight of our elders to other warmer states, if they can afford it. Those that can't afford that lifestyle are walling themselves up or secluding themselves in villages and communities which only allow people over a certain age. Just imagine what our young our losing, by not having these people as a part of their daily life.

Urbanism as an ideal, isn't just a place with nice buildings and public places. It is a eclectic mix of ages, races, incomes, and life styles all living in a single area, or dare I say "neighborhood".

[Vox]

Oh come on, DD. You know full well that you have rejected every piece of advice people of all ages have given you here, why would we think that these alleged elders would matter to you? In an urban setting or in suburbia? Really?

[NorthEndere]

Instead of posting anecdotal stories all the time, let's see what information says. As of 2000, the median age in most of Michigan's large city propers [[i.e. Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Flint, etc) was approximately 30 years of age, significantly below the national average. It was a little younger in Ann Arbor [[29) and way younger in East Lansing [[22) and significantly older in Detroit's larger suburbs [[Livonia 40, Warren 38, Sterling Heights 37, Clinton 37, even Dearborn was 34.5). Other Detroit suburbs had some of the highest in the state [[Bloomfield Township was 45, most of the Pointes were all above 40, St. Clair Shores 42).

Michigan has aged pretty quickly, going from 35.5 years of age in 2000 to 38.5 years of age in 2009 [[estimate) ranking it the twelfth oldest in the country tieing with Ohio. Only the states of New England, the Mid-Atlantic, and Florida are predicted to be older. All that said, aging isn't even all over the state, and Metro Detroit is definitely aging faster than most other urban areas of the state.

EDIT: I see that iheartdetroit had got to this, and from a more localized metropolitan perspective.

[DetroitDad]

Oh come on, DD. You know full well that you have rejected every piece of advice people of all ages have given you here, why would we think that these alleged elders would matter to you? In an urban setting or in suburbia? Really?

I was wrong.

[jcole]

I was wrong.

Very adult of you, DD. I'm being serious, not nasty. Not easy to admit when one is wrong.

[stinkytofu]

There is a lot to do around Detroit for someone in their 20s. It's just a matter of what your interests are and seeking out what best suits you.

I'm in my mid-20s, work for a non-profit downtown, play vintage baseball at Greenfield Village, and do my best to find interesting things around town that excite me. I love the whole Detroit area and can't imagine leaving.

[gameguy56]

Other Detroit peers with stagnant or declining economies -- Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis -- suffer from much the same lack of urban investment and lackluster infrastructure as Detroit. They also tend to be located in regions where the majority of the regions wealth is concentrated outside of the city limits, like Detroit. Pittsburgh is the only exception that comes to the top of my mind, but then again that city has also managed to significantly reverse course over the past decade or so unlike its Rust Belt peers. [[I also can't think of an example of a city where there is still a significant amount of wealth within the central city, but the regional economy is faltering....

I'm from Pittsburgh and have a lot of family in Detroit so the contrast is pretty dire, honestly. Detroit was destroyed by racism and hatred. You can just feel the heavy cloud of racism in southestern michigan. It's incredibly sad. The Pittsburgh region had just as much hardship as metro detroit, if not more, but we still had a core group of wealthy neighborhoods in the city and our corporations were better corporate citizens than yours. PNC is big into downtown pittsburgh, unlike Comerica that flew the coup.

Even comparing Detroit to Cleveland or St. Louis [[or Cincinnati or Milwaukee or Buffalo etc.) is frustrating because those cities STILL have viable neighborhoods for young people. There's nothing like Cleveland's Tremont or Ohio City area in Detroit. There's nothing like St. Louis's Soulard or Central West End in Detroit. Where's the equivalent of Cincinnati's Hyde Park or Northside? What about Detroit's version of Milwaukee's Riverwest? Even Buffalo's Allentown neighborhood is better than anything Detroit has!

Baltimore has a bunch of wonderful neighborhoods too, but they really benefit from being on the east coast so it's sort of not fair comparison

Detroit's midtown is the crust of a shell of an urban neighborhood. Hamtramck could be very cool but I don't think it's really caught on for some reason. And...uhh..that's about it.

[gameguy56]

My wife and I are about 30. Happily residing in Livonia. We go out a lot [[perhaps too much, after a recent review of where our money goes). Sometimes locally, sometimes RO or Ferndale, and more often than not, in Detroit. There's always a new restaurant, bar, show or event to check out. I guess I've never been bored or thought "there's nothing to do" as one poster said.

I'm 24, college educated and employed in a solid stable job. Right now I live in the Bloomfield neighborhood of Pittsburgh in a rowhouse. I'm 2 blocks from a grocery store, an art gallery/music venue, and a pizza shop where I can buy beer. I am 3 blocks from 3 or 4 bars where people my age hang out, 2 italian grocers, and some thai and italian restaurants. I can walk a little further and get to 2 more strips of art galleries, pizza shops, pho restaurants, brunch cafes, coffee shops and a dance club. My block is safe, there are no bars on my window. Rents here are between 500-800 for a 1br. I bike to work in downtown and it takes me about 20-25 minutes.

Why is there no place I can live this lifestyle in SE MI? Maybe that lifestyle doesn't appeal to you, but I think it's something very appealing to me and most of my [[our?) generation. My girlfriend is from metro Detroit and she wants to move back there at some point. [[We're at that stage where I'd be moving with her) I'm really afraid of not being able to live how I want in SE MI. Metro Detroit is much bigger by population than Pittsburgh [[4.3 million to 2.3 million) but fewer people work in Downtown Detroit than Downtown Pittsburgh! Some days I can take the bus to work. It's reliable, there are bike racks on most of the busses. They usually come once every 15-30 minutes depending on peak or off peak timing.

It's such a shame that Oakland county is so wealthy but absolutely none of that money goes anywhere near Detroit.

[Danny]

Today many older people tend to stay in Michigan due to their fixed, stable or unstable income. Fewer young people are taking care of their elders due to lack of finding jobs. But more young people are still moving out of Michigan due to lack of job creation here and better job opportunities out west, south and other popular U.S. from New York to Chicago to Los Angeles.

The future cities the younger people will go for better jobs is Washington D.C. St. Louis, Altanta, Dallas, Houston, Denver and Seattle.

[gameguy56]

Today many older people tend to stay in Michigan due to their fixed, stable or unstable income. Fewer young people are taking care of their elders due to lack of finding jobs. But more young people are still moving out of Michigan due to lack of job creation here and better job opportunities out west, south and other popular U.S. from New York to Chicago to Los Angeles.

The future cities the younger people will go for better jobs is Washington D.C. St. Louis, Altanta, Dallas, Houston, Denver and Seattle.

Dan Gilbert is doing a herculean job trying to reverse that. I give him a ton of credit and I feel like he's the only person in Metro Detroit that actually "gets it" [[maybe that's why he's 49 and worth 1.5 billion dollars?) He'll be even more wealthy if his real estate holdings pan out. I have a feeling they will but it'll just take a long time.

[Bham1982]

I'm from Pittsburgh and have a lot of family in Detroit so the contrast is pretty dire, honestly. Detroit was destroyed by racism and hatred. You can just feel the heavy cloud of racism in southestern michigan. It's incredibly sad. The Pittsburgh region had just as much hardship as metro detroit, if not more, but we still had a core group of wealthy neighborhoods in the city and our corporations were better corporate citizens than yours. PNC is big into downtown pittsburgh, unlike Comerica that flew the coup.

Metro Pittsburgh actually has far greater population loss than Metro Detroit.

Metro Detroit is very close to its historical population peak. It really only lost population the last five years or so, and during another few years in the 70's.

In contrast, Metro Pittsburgh has lost hundreds of thousands of residents for decades now.

But you're right that Pittsburgh seems much more united as a region, and the corporations seem to have spearheaded more common good. And Pittsburgh city proper has more livable neighborhoods than Detroit [[but Pittsburgh is still a very troubled city).

[gameguy56]

Metro Pittsburgh actually has far greater population loss than Metro Detroit.

Metro Detroit is very close to its historical population peak. It really only lost population the last five years or so, and during another few years in the 70's.

In contrast, Metro Pittsburgh has lost hundreds of thousands of residents for decades now.

But you're right that Pittsburgh seems much more united as a region, and the corporations seem to have spearheaded more common good. And Pittsburgh city proper has more livable neighborhoods than Detroit [[but Pittsburgh is still a very troubled city).

Yes, the city is certainly not out of the woodshed yet, but there's generally a positive outlook here. Things are getting better. More money is flowing in. There's a lot of redevelopment and urban infill. The universities are expanding research and enrollment. PNC is growing and building another skyscraper. BNY-Mellon is stable. The reliance on the legacy of steel has basically been over for a while now. I don't know anyone that works at US Steel [[except for my parent's neighbor who was an engineer there a long time ago). We really benefit from having a legacy of walk able close-knit neighborhoods. Probably more than most any other city in our size category.

We also have a united city-county transit system [[PAT) as opposed to the DDOT/SMART split you guys have.

I guess that the biggest difference is probably that a lot of the middle aged people here have really fond memories of growing up in Pittsburgh, and they don't hate the city now. If their kids are still in the region then they probably live in the city now.

[swingline]

Interesting posts about Pittsburgh. A couple of other thoughts. First, Pittsburgh has benefitted from its geography. The region hasn't been able to sprawl as easily as other Rust Belt regions simply because of the hilly terrain. Building roads and extending utilities is a lot more difficult and expensive when you're not just slamming through cornfields.

Second, Pittsburgh has benefitted from its school system's ability to avoid cratering when it comes to achievement. There are some very troubled schools, especially in poor neighborhoods, but there are still viable public school options for many middle class families. Also, a number of private school options remain in the city for the more well off families who have stayed. This school situation has greatly contributed to the stability of many Pittsburgh neighborhoods. The public school system is not nearly as large as DPS used to be and that has also helped it manage its current problems. But the Pittsburgh school system will not be immune from the tipping point phenomenon that other big city systems have experienced. If that tipping point is reached, and the system loses its current diversity, it will present a new challenge for Pittsburgh.

[DetroitZack]

I'm only 23 and I'm proud to say last summer I moved from the suburbs to Detroit!