Keep light-rail opportunity on track for city, region

[rbdetsport]

The news and freep did a really poor job of reporting this good news today. They always like to put in how many stations there will be when that is still currently unknown due to the EIS not being completed yet. They also describe the line in a way that says the final product will only be 3.4 miles long [[the first phase of the 3.4 mile line). They need to be better writers. None the less, this is great news and another piece to the puzzle for bringing light rail to Southeast Michigan.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Light Rail investments typically have significant positive effects on the land values of property within 1/2 mile of the line. The Illitches probably own more property along the first leg of that line than anyone else. They stand to make a killing in the end! Backing M1 Rail is a fantastic business move for any Woodward property owner. In fact, you could argue that all Woodward adjacent property owners should be pitching in for this project. They all stand to realize a significant windfall.

[esp1986]

Light Rail investments typically have significant positive effects on the land values of property within 1/2 mile of the line. The Illitches probably own more property along the first leg of that line than anyone else. They stand to make a killing in the end! Backing M1 Rail is a fantastic business move for any Woodward property owner. In fact, you could argue that all Woodward adjacent property owners should be pitching in for this project. They all stand to realize a significant windfall.

provided the line actually makes it to 8 mile and hopefully beyond.

[Hypestyles]

Regarding the U.S. - China summit, especially when it comes to getting a rail system going here, Chinese consultation on this could prove invaluable since China already has a vast network of mass-transit trains.

[Scottathew]

The "finish" shouldn't be 8-Mile, it should be Pontiac. When we finish that, we should do Gratiot from Woodward to Mt. Clemens.

I also would prefer that the project be ran by M-DOT, as this should be a regional system, not something specific to Detroit. This isn't to say Detroit isn't capable, but I would really prefer that the scope be beyond the borders of Detroit.

[English]

All in time, 48091. All in time.

[canuck]

Regarding the U.S. - China summit, especially when it comes to getting a rail system going here, Chinese consultation on this could prove invaluable since China already has a vast network of mass-transit trains.

Yup, check out the maglev train that shuttles between Shanghai metro stations and the Pudong int'l airport. 268 miles an hour. The fastest train on earth in regular service. Beijing just inaugurated some
new subway lines 2 weeks ago. They built that in a couple of years. It would cover an average north american city. This week they announced they will also restrict car purchases in Beijing. Too much traffic in spite of the huge freeway infrastructure.

[Brainiac]

I just spent a week in Seattle. I stayed out by the airport, and every night I would spend five bucks round trip and jump on the light rail to go downtown. I was amazed at how many people used public transportation when light rail was available. Each night I saw people who had longer layovers make a trip downtown for a couple of hours. Detroit really needs to connect the airport to downtown with light rail. This is the week f the auto show, if there were light rail, I would fly in for the day, take a ride to Cobo and spend the day at the show. I do that in Minneapolis, they have light rail that stops at the Mall of America. Please Detroit, get light rail.

I live here in the Detroit area, yet I work in Seattle [[remotely, but I'm there a lot). And as kindly as I can say this, you all are so way off course in emotion for the idea of light rail. Seattle's light rail is nice, but is an economic handcuff.

Seattle is a city with the worst traffic, maybe in the nation. An afternoon rush hour starts at 2:30pm and ends at 7:30pm. It costs workers more than 45 hours of time wasted in traffic a year. It's all because the city is in an economic boom like Detroit of 1910, and has few roads due to geography.

Yet the light rail is NOT heavily ridden. It is about a million riders under projections.

http://www.globaltelematics.com/pitf...engercount.htm

And that's for a city that is RICH due to an enormous economic boom, is dominantly liberal and hyper-supportive of mass transportation, and has desprite need because congestion puts their spectacular growth at risk. These aren't our conditions whatsoever.

Meanwhile, the 1950's era 2-lane "520 bridge" has been more than 100% over capacity for more than a decade, and because of light rail, the bridge replacement is short $2 billion of the estimated $4.65 billion needed [[and that estimate is a typical government estimate, bridge could cost between $6 and $10 billion).

Our situation is comparatively bleak. We all must contemplate, internalize and accept: we suffer from a complete breakdown in our region's capitalism equation. Because of China and other competitors, our fantastic multiplier effect that manufacturing provides is greatly diminished and is far from returning. We are no longer printing money with our manufacturing plants.

These days, tech and software represent the new equation: invest in expensive R&D, then see profits soar because production cost is negligable. They ARE practically printing money in tech, like manufacturing once did.

SHELVE light rail. It has too much risk, our government is already BEYOND BROKE, and we can't afford to handcuff ourselves even further. The thing to take away from Seattle is that we must focus on the flow of capital and the business models of our region.

When something along the lines of the world's best selling operating system or the world's biggest online retailer are HQ'd in Detroit, then, the economic activity will be ripe for another expensive city asset [[and it's associated liability).

[Brainiac]

Yup, check out the maglev train that shuttles between Shanghai metro stations and the Pudong int'l airport. 268 miles an hour. The fastest train on earth in regular service. Beijing just inaugurated some
new subway lines 2 weeks ago. They built that in a couple of years. It would cover an average north american city. This week they announced they will also restrict car purchases in Beijing. Too much traffic in spite of the huge freeway infrastructure.

See my post above. China now holds the multiplier effect of manufacturing. Although, they also are communist, manipulate their currency, and have a horrible human rights track record.

If it were truly fair competition, then, we could compete and bring back factory jobs. A steady pace of economic activity leads to light rail, not the other way around.

[Brainiac]

The news and freep did a really poor job of reporting this good news today. They always like to put in how many stations there will be when that is still currently unknown due to the EIS not being completed yet. They also describe the line in a way that says the final product will only be 3.4 miles long [[the first phase of the 3.4 mile line). They need to be better writers. None the less, this is great news and another piece to the puzzle for bringing light rail to Southeast Michigan.

Alternatively, government could be delivering top speed, dirt cheap internet service to every resident - something that would really help the region.

[Hermod]

Here in Southeast Florida, we have a heavy rail transit line [[TriRail aka Trashrail) that runs from Mangonia Park north of West Palm Beach to a stop south of Miami. The Sunday Sun-Sentinel had an article on how most of the planned "transit friendly" construction [[offices, condos, retail) around the stations has never advanced beyond the "artist concept" stage despite the line being in existence since the 1980s. The line runs frequent trains, but every station stop is sort of a wasteland, remote from economic activity.

[bailey]

All in time, 48091. All in time.

The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes

[professorscott]

Here in Southeast Florida, we have a heavy rail transit line [[TriRail aka Trashrail) that runs from Mangonia Park north of West Palm Beach to a stop south of Miami. The Sunday Sun-Sentinel had an article on how most of the planned "transit friendly" construction [[offices, condos, retail) around the stations has never advanced beyond the "artist concept" stage despite the line being in existence since the 1980s. The line runs frequent trains, but every station stop is sort of a wasteland, remote from economic activity.

True, and easily understood. Freight rail lines, there like in most places, are intentionally somewhat remote from urban-style and pedestrian-friendly areas. Nobody wants to be near the freight tracks. So if you just re-use a typical freight rail line for transit, and there is no reason at all for somebody to be near the rail line except to get on the train, you aren't going to get much else.

In the case of Woodward, from downtown Detroit to perhaps Birmingham, the light rail along the street goes through some areas where there already is a great deal of urban activity and some where there once was and perhaps someday will be again. So if you look at light rail going through urban territory on or near streets, like in Denver, it works great as an economic engine. If you look at freight-rail type commuter rail, like Boston, it works great in getting lots of people from point to point quickly, but it's not fair to sell that as an economic development project in the same way as light rail. Not the same animal at all.

[dtowncitylover]

Did anyone go to the TRU [[Transportation Riders United) meeting last night? They said there would be a sneak peak on an announcement Friday.

[Richard]

I live here in the Detroit area, yet I work in Seattle [[remotely, but I'm there a lot). And as kindly as I can say this, you all are so way off course in emotion for the idea of light rail. Seattle's light rail is nice, but is an economic handcuff.

Seattle is a city with the worst traffic, maybe in the nation. An afternoon rush hour starts at 2:30pm and ends at 7:30pm. It costs workers more than 45 hours of time wasted in traffic a year. It's all because the city is in an economic boom like Detroit of 1910, and has few roads due to geography.

Yet the light rail is NOT heavily ridden. It is about a million riders under projections.

http://www.globaltelematics.com/pitf...engercount.htm

And that's for a city that is RICH due to an enormous economic boom, is dominantly liberal and hyper-supportive of mass transportation, and has desprite need because congestion puts their spectacular growth at risk. These aren't our conditions whatsoever.

Meanwhile, the 1950's era 2-lane "520 bridge" has been more than 100% over capacity for more than a decade, and because of light rail, the bridge replacement is short $2 billion of the estimated $4.65 billion needed [[and that estimate is a typical government estimate, bridge could cost between $6 and $10 billion).

Our situation is comparatively bleak. We all must contemplate, internalize and accept: we suffer from a complete breakdown in our region's capitalism equation. Because of China and other competitors, our fantastic multiplier effect that manufacturing provides is greatly diminished and is far from returning. We are no longer printing money with our manufacturing plants.

These days, tech and software represent the new equation: invest in expensive R&D, then see profits soar because production cost is negligable. They ARE practically printing money in tech, like manufacturing once did.

SHELVE light rail. It has too much risk, our government is already BEYOND BROKE, and we can't afford to handcuff ourselves even further. The thing to take away from Seattle is that we must focus on the flow of capital and the business models of our region.

When something along the lines of the world's best selling operating system or the world's biggest online retailer are HQ'd in Detroit, then, the economic activity will be ripe for another expensive city asset [[and it's associated liability).

Nothing like looking at the cover without reading the book.

[Hermod]

True, and easily understood. Freight rail lines, there like in most places, are intentionally somewhat remote from urban-style and pedestrian-friendly areas. Nobody wants to be near the freight tracks. So if you just re-use a typical freight rail line for transit, and there is no reason at all for somebody to be near the rail line except to get on the train, you aren't going to get much else.

In the case of Woodward, from downtown Detroit to perhaps Birmingham, the light rail along the street goes through some areas where there already is a great deal of urban activity and some where there once was and perhaps someday will be again. So if you look at light rail going through urban territory on or near streets, like in Denver, it works great as an economic engine. If you look at freight-rail type commuter rail, like Boston, it works great in getting lots of people from point to point quickly, but it's not fair to sell that as an economic development project in the same way as light rail. Not the same animal at all.

Yet if you go out into the country and build a highway beltway, it becomes a magnet for development. A case in point would be Tyson's Corners in northern Virginia [[DC suburbs). In 1956, it was a general store and two gas stations at a country crossroads of a pair of two lane blacktop roads. After the interstate beltway was built, the nearby exit spurred development so much that by 1986 there was more square feet of office space in Tyson's corners than there was in all of Miami-Dade county.

BTW Florida's Trirail runs on the tracks once used by the Orange Blossom Special, Silver Meteor, Palmland and other storied passenger trains of the "great silver fleet" of the Seaboard Airline Railroad. It was built into south Florida to capitalize on the Florida land boom of the 1920s [[which died just as the SAL reached Miami.).

[DetroitPlanner]

You know, what surprises me [[pleasantly, I might add) is that the Ilitches are on board as supporters for this project. One would think this would cut into their parking-lot empire around the Fox. Nice to see them doing something that is in the city's best interest. And no, I am not being sarcastic.

The Illitches control most of the land. Doing something like this would also be in the family's interest as well because they will be able to justify opening up those properties for development. Think of it this way: the anchors already exist with Tiger Stadium on one side and the Fox on the other. What can now happen is filling in the space between with stores and restraunts that will strengthen the entertainment district and fatten the family's collective wallets. Parking can always be put into structures that will be a short distance away, and the pedestrian area would be a lot more attractive to the consumer. This is a similar formula that Disney has used between Disneyland and California Parks when they developed Downtown Disney.

[rbdetsport]

Has anyone seen the DEIS posted yet?

[rsa.313]

those associated with the project were mailed copies last week. public posting should be today. public presentation and comment session will be on 2/12 at the DPL

[BrushStart]

those associated with the project were mailed copies last week. public posting should be today. public presentation and comment session will be on 2/12 at the DPL

Are you talking about the Environmental Impact Study? If so, where is it being posted, and where does that put us in the overall process?

[professorscott]

Are you talking about the Environmental Impact Study? If so, where is it being posted, and where does that put us in the overall process?

Well, you can see on the EPA's web site that it exists, but you can't get it from there:
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oeca/webeis....2?opendocument

Don't bother calling the contact phone number, though: I did, and the message says she is out of the office for the next few weeks.

If anybody knows where there actually is a copy, let us all know...

[ghettopalmetto]

Yet if you go out into the country and build a highway beltway, it becomes a magnet for development. A case in point would be Tyson's Corners in northern Virginia [[DC suburbs). In 1956, it was a general store and two gas stations at a country crossroads of a pair of two lane blacktop roads. After the interstate beltway was built, the nearby exit spurred development so much that by 1986 there was more square feet of office space in Tyson's corners than there was in all of Miami-Dade county.

I'd rather it be a general store and two gas stations.

[erikd]

The draft environmental impact statement was just posted here.

http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/HomeNew.html

[pswingset]

If you read the whole thing [[and kudos to you if you did), what alignment looks best to you? Personally, I had gotten used to the idea of the LPA being curb running from Downtown to Grand Blvd. and then median running from the Blvd. to Eight Mile. Thoughts?

[French777]

I read a good portion of it. I can't remember off the top of my head, but didn't It say that if it ran on the Median than it would shave off a good 10 mins or so off the trip?

- Very interesting report btw.