Crazier and crazier-- Congresswoman and others shot

[oladub]

Ola, your comments about the SPLC are funny. Here is the MIAC report. let everyone decide.
http://tinyurl.com/c3sy77

Fair enough. The MIAC report you present mixes anecdotes of historical racism and violence together with conservative values and opinions just as the SPLC is now trying to do regarding the Loughner shootings and just as the Nazi propagandists did in their portrayal of Jews in about 1933. This is a slippery slope and it does not bode well that the Obama administration uses the SPLC as a propagandist arm.

Examples from the MIAC report:
It begins with an elitist leftist explanation of why militias were organized during the Clinton era and belittles threats to employment and other concerns. Its premise is that there is a resurgence in the militia movement which it doesn't verify. The reason is because, it claims, there is anger over having a black president, some 'constitutionalists' don't believe that the President is a natural born citizen, that 'there is a great deal of anger toward the Federal Reserve' is mentioned just after mentions about FEMA camps. Note the word 'anger'. Nothing going on her folks with the banks; move along. This is sleazy stuff mixing the OK city bombing together with FEMA camps, constitutional supporters, and legitimate concerns about what is going on at the Federal Reserve. Better not concern yourself with what the private bankers are doing to our jobs and economy or you will be profiled with militia people, people who want the Constitution enforced, bombers, and racists. They are interlinked according to the SPLC. Herman Goering would be proud of the suggestiveness found in this brochure.

And this is the part that personally gets me rb, "It is not uncommon for militia members to display Constitution Party, Campaign for Liberty, or libertarian material [[keep in mind that libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian). These members are usually supporters of former Presidential candidate Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin[[Constitution Party presidential candidate), and Bob Barr[[Libertarian Party presidential candidate and former republican Congressman)." I do not like it when this neo-fascist organization that you and Jimaz are pushing somehow lump Ron Paul and his supporters in with the past violent acts of some militia people. Ron Paul does not make statements about knives and guns. I don't know of any Ron Paul supporters, Libertarian or Constitution party members who belong to a militia yet the report wildly claims that militia members are usually such people. This is, in short, a lie which you are helping to propagate. It is a lie designed to have a chilling effect on liberty. Minimalizing subsets of the population has led to discrimination and the oppression of groups in the past. What this report does is no different than what was done in 1933. I choose liberty. You can pick your own comfort zone.

It isn't just me. The Governor of Missouri took a look and decided. "The Governor of Missouri got rid of this publication and there were firings. "Colonel James F. Keathley, Superintendent of the Missouri State Highway Patrol responded by issuing a letter of response which stated "that the Missouri militia documents are being withdrawn, more oversight will be applied to future releases, the Missouri Documents do not meet the high quality standards expected from the MIAC, and that “certain subsets of Missourians will not be singled out inappropriately in these reports for particular associations”.

All of this is a bit off topic but has anyone found any proof yet that Loughner had even seen the Palin ads or was a listener to Rush or Beck? That’s important because the SPLC is basing it’s charges on such things being true but hasn’t provide any evidence. That is how SPLC got into this conversation when Jimaz was casting about looking for some authority to verify what he wanted to believe. If anyone could find such proof, you could help vindicate Jimaz and rb’s longings.

Rb, totally off topic but I almost forgot. I have asked you twice to cite your source for your claim that President Washington used the General Welfare clause to build poor houses. Have you found any yet?

[maxx]

Sarah put her foot in it again. Is she really that dense or just insensitive?

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ords-killing/1

oladub: And this is the part that personally gets me rb, "It is not uncommon for militia members to display Constitution Party, Campaign for Liberty, or libertarian material [[keep in mind that libertarian is the opposite of authoritarian). These members are usually supporters of former Presidential candidate Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin[[Constitution Party presidential candidate), and Bob Barr[[Libertarian Party presidential candidate and former republican Congressman)." I do not like it when this neo-fascist organization that you and Jimaz are pushing somehow lump Ron Paul and his supporters in with the past violent acts of some militia people.

Too bad. I don't like it when people try to equate atheism with authoritarianism which is the fundie christians' bread and butter. If militia people like Ron Paul, it is what it is. They are reporting how those people think. It doesn't mean Ron Paul is a fascist. His stand on the public accomodations section of the Civil RIghts Act may attract racists, though.

[rb336]

Fair enough. The MIAC report you present mixes anecdotes of historical racism and violence together with conservative values and opinions just as the SPLC is now trying to do regarding the Loughner shootings and just as the Nazi propagandists did in their portrayal of Jews in about 1933. This is a slippery slope and it does not bode well that the Obama administration uses the SPLC as a propagandist arm.

The right-wingers were the FIRST to start talking about Loghners motives - to the incredibly stupid point of claiming a shrine with a skull proved he was an atheist, and therefore a liberal. Find me something that coroborates your claim about the SPLC that DOESN'T come from a right-wing blog. I saw nothing on their site yesterday.. then you drift off into a bunch of other logical fallicies - from reductio ad hitlerium to the slippery slope fallacy

as to Washington, do some research on his social programs. you won't buy it coming from me anyway

[maxx]

Originally Posted by gdogslim
Maybe stabenow, the russian jewish socialist senator from michigan,

maxx: How many guns do you own?

[oladub]

The right-wingers were the FIRST to start talking about Loghners motives - to the incredibly stupid point of claiming a shrine with a skull proved he was an atheist, and therefore a liberal. Find me something that coroborates your claim about the SPLC that DOESN'T come from a right-wing blog. I saw nothing on their site yesterday.. then you drift off into a bunch of other logical fallicies - from reductio ad hitlerium to the slippery slope fallacy

as to Washington, do some research on his social programs. you won't buy it coming from me anyway

I don't have to go to right wing blogs. I went to the link you provided, the Miac report, and quoted it verbatim. Also, there was the quote from theSuperintendent of the Missouri State Highway Patrol which I could repeat for the third time. I did not say the same slippery slope always happens but there are parallels and I don't like to be in the crosshairs of your nonsense. Naomi Wolfe speaks of the 12 steps toward a police state. She says we have begun all 12 steps and that was before this latest round of excuses for attacking the 1st and 2nd Amendment without even making any connection between the shooter's and his actually having listened to Rush or having ever sen a Palin ad.

I am unaware of claims about a shrine with a skull but perhaps you find it more disturbing than the President's quote about bringing a gun to the fight.

Did you find anything to validate your claim about President Washington's use of the "General Welfare" clause to build poor houses yet?

maxx, You are confusing Rand with Ron. Who specifically was equating atheism with authoritarianism? It might have been true in Communist countries but Ron Paul tied one other Republican candidate, I can't remember whom, as having the highest percentage of atheist supporters. In that case, athiests went for the least authoritarian candidate. Suggesting that "It is not uncommon for militia members to display...libertarian material , a quote from the Miac report, sounds like the ranting of a fool if only it wasn't so dangerous.

[maxx]

[QUOTE] oladub: More like insanity. The Reichstag is burning logic, such as it was, found in your article was that Loughner didn't like big government. He shot a Democrat because they are for big government. Furthermore, it is usually Democrats who are shot which somehow is supposed to determine this and every such incident. Therefore he was right wing.

Mother Jones, another liberal publication, also addressed the same issue but Mother Jones bothered to interview one of Loethner's friends. I'm sorry to deliver the news but his friend didn't really think that right wing politics were what make Loethner tick. According to this article, Loethner was upset that Giffords hadn't answered one of his crazy questions.[.QUOTE]
It's highly unlikely that only one thing caused Loughner's behavior. Anyone's behavior comes from a myriad of experiences. It is disingenuous to say that the level of hate speech leveled at the gov. and especially Democrats had absolutely nothing to do with this incident or any of the other incidents like the fools who brought guns to the town hall meetings.

[canuck]

I'm thinking that so-called email is a fraud since Mike has Bernie reffering to himself as a member of the Democratic Party. That is clearly false, he is an independant.

Yes that is pretty interesting, Sanders was the only socialist mayor in the US at one point. He has done a lot for Burlington Vermont. Good work in community funded housing, town planning; he introduced the pedestrian mall on Church street, the main shopping street in the city. This guy not only talks the talk, he walks the walk. He is the kind of hands on guy who could do good work for Detroit.

[Mikeg]

It's highly unlikely that only one thing caused Loughner's behavior. Anyone's behavior comes from a myriad of experiences.

Since you seem to think you are knowledgeable enough to comment on the behavior of paranoid schizophrenics, I have to ask - are you a doctor or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

In his Washington Post weekly column today, board-certified psychiatrist Charles Krauthammer addresses the libel that the Tucson massacre was the result of a "climate of hate" created by conservatives - and takes out NYT columnist Paul Krugman in the process:

The charge: The Tucson massacre is a consequence of the "climate of hate" created by Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, Glenn Beck, Obamacare opponents and sundry other liberal betes noires.

The verdict: Rarely in American political discourse has there been a charge so reckless, so scurrilous and so unsupported by evidence.

As killers go, Jared Loughner is not reticent. Yet among all his writings, postings, videos and other ravings - and in all the testimony from all the people who knew him - there is not a single reference to any of these supposed accessories to murder.......

The origins of Loughner's delusions are clear: mental illness. What are the origins of Krugman's? [read his entire Op-ed column]

Here's Krauthammer's April 28, 1995 column which was written shortly after President Clinton's speeches in Oklahoma City and Milwaukee:

Fewer than half the dead had been recovered from their bombed-out tomb in Oklahoma City before the political exploitation of their tragedy had begun. It began perhaps with my Inside Washington colleague Carl Rowan attributing the bombing to “the angriest of the angry white men” inflamed by opponents of affirmative action. He later specifically named Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole as public figures whose rhetoric “creates a climate of violence in America.”

Now, if we are going to attribute outrageous murders to “climates” created by legitimate political speech, then why not attribute last year’s murder of six white Long Island rail passengers by a crazed black man to the “climate” created by those who, like Rowan, incessantly [[and quite legitimately) highlight the racism and injustice of contemporary America? If Timothy McVeigh is Bob Dole’s triggerman, then Colin Ferguson is Carl Rowan’s.

Absurd as Rowan’s claim is, it is politically potent — too potent to be passed up by a weak president looking for an opening. Accordingly, Clinton pounced. Using Oklahoma for his attack, Clinton went from consoler of the nation to cheap politician in less than 24 hours. In a speech in Milwaukee on Monday, the day after a moving memorial service in Oklahoma City, he denounced the “purveyors of hatred and division, the promoters of paranoia.”

“They spread hate,” he charged. “They leave the impression, by their very words, that violence is acceptable. You ought to see . . . the reports of some things that are regularly said over the airwaves in America today.” His obvious target was conservative talk radio, his nemesis throughout his presidency and the object of sputtering presidential attacks in the past.

No more sputtering. Clinton has found his weapon: the dead of Oklahoma......
[read the entire column]

[oldredfordette]

Bernie is amazing, but I think he could only come from New England, where the old-fashioned idea of civil public debate is still alive.

[canuck]

Bernie is amazing, but I think he could only come from New England, where the old-fashioned idea of civil public debate is still alive.

Yes, it sounds cliché to mention the town hall meeting, but it does work like that there. Mind you the state is small, heck the state capital has a mere 3000 people and is picture perfect in every way. Small Vermont towns sometimes outdisney Disney, except maple syrup replaces the cotton candy.

[Gistok]

I'm thinking you don't know what your'e talking about. I referred to Sanders as being "a member of the Senate's Democrat caucus", which is very different from being a member of the Democrat Party. According to Wikipedia [[and even Sander's own web site), "Sanders caucuses with the Democratic Party and is counted as a Democrat for the purposes of committee assignments, but because he does not belong to a formal political party, he appears as an independent on the ballot."

According to Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard, a staffer in Sanders’ campaign office confirmed that they sent the letter.

I was waiting for someone to call you out on that one.... is that how folks are commonly addressed when speaking of a politician??? Funny that... I always thought a label was Democratic-Republican-Independent-Libertarian.... not who they caucus with??

You're just using your semantic spin to prove a point which has little merit in regards to the Democratic Party.... is he a due paying member of the Democratic Party?? No! So why bring it up?? Next we'll be hearing you talking about Olympia Snowe as "voting with the Democrats"... in order to make your point...

[Zacha341]

I hear you. The prescribed right-wing vs. left-wing hats have to be pulled out when this kind of thing happens so as make the tragic senselessness of more bearable. The party of 'self interest' is the larger picture, disquised often within the simplicity of right vs. left tennis court [[it the far easier to digest rubric, even when not fully applicable).

Politics are politics, and crazed, murderous shootings are another thing, entirely.
If a CEO of a large business, or a right-wing loudmouth such as Rush Limbaugh, is thusly blasted, will you then apologize, or will you maintain that you were just expressing your beliefs and therefore not culpable for the mayhem?

[Mikeg]

From tonight's post-massacre memorial-cum-pep-rally:

"But what we can’t do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on one another. As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together." - President B. H. Obama

Maybe it was after listening to the President's speech that Gistok "expanded his moral imagination" and decided to remove his childish, finger-pointing "YOU GOT PUNKED!' put-down from his post above.

[Zacha341]

Sad. Brings to memory the student who shot his female classmate, then shot himself at Henry Ford Community College in 2009......

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/artic...7145518855.txt

I read he had some trouble at his community college. Rather than helping him, they wouldn't let him back in after he dropped unless he had a mental health professional say he wasn't dangerous.

It sounds like they were trying to get rid of him.

[Zacha341]

Thank you! Great points!

whoa up here guys. This guy was/is a disturbed person, and disturbed people do disturbing things.

This has as much to do with Sarah Palin as Glenn Beck does impersonating a history prof: just cuz you say they are connected, doesn't mean they are.

In fact, with what little facts there are, it seems this disturbed man's favorite book was the Communist Manifesto; making him more of a leftist ... for those who need labels to know what is wrong or right.

With this guy being a Leftist, the conclusion could be drawn that Ms Giffords was shot because she was a conservative Blue Dog Democrat. Making her a target of the leftist fringe who are unhappy that the Blue Dogs who have restrained the promised Obama/Pelosi reforms.

See how that lumping-together and guilty-by-association thing works?

What you should be mad about is the state of mental health ... this guy in Arizona is the same kind of fellow who killed Kevin Johnson in Lafayette Park. This is a very unbalanced man. Not a right or left wing fanatic; a crazy fucker.

Anyone who preaches differently is grinding their personal political ax; while using the blood of innocents to whet the blade.

[Jimaz]

Wikipedia's Jared Lee Loughner article

[DetroitDad]

Wikipedia's Jared Lee Loughner article

A whole lot of blame searching. Is it the radio and T.V.? Is it drugs and alcohol? Is it My Space? Is it movies? Is it Internet message boards and web sites?

Witch hunt?

[maxx]

: Mikeg: Using Oklahoma for his attack, Clinton went from consoler of the nation to cheap politician in less than 24 hours. In a speech in Milwaukee on Monday, the day after a moving memorial service in Oklahoma City, he denounced the “purveyors of hatred and division, the promoters of paranoia.”

“They spread hate,” he charged. “They leave the impression, by their very words, that violence is acceptable. You ought to see . . . the reports of some things that are regularly said over the airwaves in America today.”

Well, it's obvious you don't think that the words that people use can cause other people to get emotionally upset. OTOH, Hitler is often used as such an example of a demogogue who could get people emotionally upset. And coach's never use charged words to excite their teams. lol

In your Clinton quote I didn't notice any reference to an individual or a party. But it seems that even a general statement about "purveyors of hate" is too emotional for you while putting gunsights on various Congressional districts or saying "don't retreat, reload" is not. I can't do anything about your cognitive dissonance.

And if there is no connection between human behavior and the many experiences that they have, why do psychology professionals take so much time dealing with their patients' relationships? Why do people have group therapy?

[maxx]

Originally Posted by Chuck La Chez I read he had some trouble at his community college. Rather than helping him, they wouldn't let him back in after he dropped unless he had a mental health professional say he wasn't dangerous.

It sounds like they were trying to get rid of him.

They didn't just tell him to leave. They directed him towards mental health.

[Bella]

They didn't just tell him to leave. They directed him towards mental health.

This. He refused the help. In AZ he is very lucky that it was even offered to him.

[Vox]

By reading the article below, you can tell that he sure wasn't a liberal. No liberal would be so concerned about the Constitution, would they?

"He very slowly began telling me in a low and mumbled voice that under the Constitution, which had been written on the wall for all to see, he had the right to his 'freedom of thought' and whatever he thought in his head he could also put on paper. ... His teacher 'must be required to accept it' as a passing grade," the officer wrote

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110113/NATION/101130411/Documents-detail-Ariz.-suspect’s-college-outbursts#ixzz1AwTA5NiA

[rb336]

In your Clinton quote I didn't notice any reference to an individual or a party. But it seems that even a general statement about "purveyors of hate" is too emotional for you while putting gunsights on various Congressional districts or saying "don't retreat, reload" is not. I can't do anything about your cognitive dissonance.

It sorta cracks me up that republicans and conservatives automatically think they are being targeted when anyone comments about "purveyors of hate" or other such comments

[Relayer76]

Who's to blame? Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter - Yes.

However, the situation would never have gotten to its present explosive level without the complementary behavior of the second group. And that is the country’s center/liberal establishment, including the Democratic Party leadership, all of whom have failed to treat the right wing threat seriously. It does not matter if members of this group simply misjudged the situation or they had the mistaken notion that to confront it would only make things worse. In either case they were wrong. Whether we consider Al Gore’s response to the stolen presidential election of 2000 or Barack Obama’s consistent refusal to prosecute the criminal acts of the Bush era extremists, these center/liberal leaders have behaved irresponsibly in the face of a growing and recognizably dangerous situation. They do the country no favor by confronting a violent right with passivity or sorrowful words.

[oldredfordette]

Very good point.

[maxx]

"There was a fever over the land. A fever of disgrace, of indignity, of hunger. We had a democracy, yes, but it was torn by elements within. Above all, there was fear. Fear of today, fear of tomorrow, fear of our neighbors, and fear of ourselves..."
["Judgment at Nuremberg"