Bashing Public School Teachers

[GOAT]

If it is such a terrible profession then why go to school to teach it? No one forces teachers to become just that.
While in the USA there are some terrible wages [[Florida being one) for teachers, there are also many other jurisdictions where they are extremely well paid and still get a slew of time off compared to the private sector [[plus unemployment benefits during the summer).

While yes there are some great teachers out there who spend a lot of time doing their job and extra curricular activities, many don't.

Sorry if it sounds callous but I think the salaries and all that goes with teaching should be somewhere in the middle of where it is currently at right now.

I just wanted to add that for teachers who do spend money on the classroom, well so do mechanics, tool & die trades, many other professional careers as well. Welcome to the club.

[Melocoton]

If it is such a terrible profession then why go to school to teach it? No one forces teachers to become just that.

And your point is? Maybe I should have gone to school to be a millionaire hedge fund investor, 'cause then I could be a complete bastard, contribute nothing to society, pay next to nothing in taxes, and for a bonus have Mike Bishop and Mitch McConnell kiss my ass.

While in the USA there are some terrible wages [[Florida being one) for teachers, there are also many other jurisdictions where they are extremely well paid and still get a slew of time off compared to the private sector [[plus unemployment benefits during the summer). Sorry if it sounds callous

You're right, it does sound callous.

[lafayette]

Goat, no other profession is scapegoated as much as teachers are. That's what makes them different from mechanics, etc. Detroitteacher, you describe beautifully what it's really like to be a teacher. Thank you. I don't understand this obsession with begrudging them a decent salary and laying all of education's problems at their doorstep while misrepresenting how hard most of them work. There are so many other professionals truly deserving of scorn, such as the hedge fund managers you describe. Why do people like goat single out teachers as unworthy wretches?

[laurin]

Color me skeptical when teachers talk about the amount of money they spend on kids. Everytime there's a teachers strike you hear about the amount of money they spend on children. How can one not be on the side of the teachers when they strike or when a millage needs to be passed when so much of their money is going to the kids.

So what exactly is your point? When there is a teacher's strike or millage, they interview/talk to the teachers and of course that's going come up. Should they not mention it? Instead should there be periodic notices sent home saying 'hey, we spent this much on kids so far'? Should they leave it out and not help build their case? When is the proper time to mention it that would soothe your skepticism?

[Parkguy]

Goat-- Teachers DO NOT get unemployment in the summer. Even if a teacher is laid-off and eventually collects unemployment, it can only be collected when they normally would be working. Check the laws.

Det_ard-- I read what you had to say until you got to "Oops... teachers don't have to do much of that in the summer." How condescending. Plus, the entire idea is based on your belief that teachers skate through their jobs.

I'm a retired teacher, one of the many who were "bought out" last year. One of the high-priced experienced teachers [[36 years) the state couldn't afford any longer. I'm collecting my pension these days, a pension that I paid into with every paycheck.

When I was finally able to find a teaching job years ago, I left my job on the assembly line, where I worked for years to put myself through school. I wanted to be a teacher, and I knew what teacher pay was like. I turned down offers to go into management in the plant, because I wanted to be a teacher. And because I wanted to be a teacher, I took a 25% pay cut to go into the classroom. No one ever heard me complain about my pay, even though I looked around and saw plenty of guys make twice the amount I did without working any harder. No one goes into teaching to get rich. And no one goes into teaching to skate through a cushy job.

Anyone who skates should be fired. Yes, there are tenure laws, which were put into place to protect teachers from political firings. Back in the day, it was common to get rid of teachers when political power shifted in the local community. But, tenure laws do not make it impossible to fire a teacher if you have cause. It only means that a teacher gets due process and is not an at-will employee. I believe this whole-heartedly: if a district can't fire a teacher who needs to be fired, it is because the administration has not done its job in evaluating that teacher. Even if a teacher has had stellar performance for years, and then suddenly goes into a tailspin, a district can fire that teacher-- but it has to follow the law to do it.

And don't attack the unions. They don't protect their members because they are part of any multi-national conspiracy. They do it because the labor laws of the United States REQUIRE them to defend all of their members. If they did not represent a member who has action taken against him or her, they would be liable.

Thanks to everyone who has defended teachers here. We hear thanks too seldom, and hear attacks on our character, our intelligence, and our motives all too often. A couple of years ago I went to my high school class reunion. I found myself talking with a guy I had known since 7th grade. He and I were never really close at all, but we hadn't seen each other in decades. He asked me what I did for a living. I said, "I'm a teacher. How about you?" He said, "First, let me just say thanks for being a teacher. I just retired from the Army."

I did a double take and told him that I should be thanking him for his years of service. He replied that he appreciated it, but that what I did was really important. I was floored, and I'll never forget it.

[DetroitTeacher]

Hmmm, I've never collected unemployment [[even when I was laid off). During the summer I am coming up with new ideas for lessons, I tutor kids [[non paid), I volunteer for various charity organizations, and I attend classes.

I've never once complained about teaching. I do complain about people who don't know of what they speak when they degrade teachers. I do complain about the BS politics that goes on. I love my kids and I love being in the classroom. I don't walk picket lines. I knew I wanted to be a teacher when I had a teacher in high school who inspired me. I worked two jobs and raised a kid on my own while going to school [[to become a teacher). I didn't do it to have summers off. I didn't do it to get vacations at holidays [[I work through my vacations preparing for what comes after the vacation). I went into teaching because I felt that I could inspire someone the way I was inspired. I spend my own money on things my kids need because they need me to...not because I am forced [[not all teachers shell out cash for their classrooms or kids..most do but those are usually the teachers who care).

If anyone wants to know who isn't teaching or is lacking in teaching ability, ask the kids. They are the first ones screaming about bad teachers. They beg to get out of the crappy teacher's class). They go to other teachers to get additional help [[so they actually learn something). Even the rotten kids can tell you who the bad teachers are. It IS the admin who doesn't follow through on rating a teacher unsatisfactory. Teachers are powerless over getting rid of colleagues. parents don't have much clout, either [[unless they have a good admin willing to listen).

Just thought I'd clear the air about a few things.

[Magnatomicflux]

. I love my kids and I love being in the classroom. .

I think that's all that really matters.

[mwilbert]

One point that no one mentioned here is that teaching is a risky career choice. You have to spend a lot of time and money on a credential that is essentially useless for anything but teaching. If it turns out you are bad at it or don't like it, you are still likely to be motivated to stick it out. But in reality a huge proportion of people who go into teaching leave rather quickly--I've seen numbers ranging from 25% to 50% attrition within the first three to five years. This seems like a huge waste.

I'd like to see education degrees be an add-on credential to a degree in a substantive field; I think it would be better for both the teachers and the people they teach, and certainly make it more easier to re-employ the people who turn out to be less well-suited to teaching.

[hogz]

Mauser, could you please elaborate on parents using lawyers to ensure A grades for their kids? And also on parents bothering your wife with e-mails?

I have never heard of such things, but that seems completely infuriating and absurd. Does it work when a parent gets counsel to ensure an A? It really should not work, because that is so unfair to all the decent people out there who couldn't imagine sinking to such a low.

In my opinion, a lot of teachers deserve more money, and some of them deserve much less or don't deserve their jobs at all. How do you separate the great teachers from the bad ones? I have no idea.

[DetroitTeacher]

Teachers [[or at least most) DO have degrees in something other than teaching. I CAN [[and did) do something other than teach, I choose to teach because I love it.

I've never heard of an attorney suing for an A for a student [[or even speaking with a teacher about it). Teachers can back up any grade given with their gradebook. I've had parents come in and try and barter for a better grade for their child but it never happens because the kids get what they earned. It might fly if a teacher hates a kid and fails them because of that [[I've seen that happen).

As for anyone "bothering" a teacher with emails? I don't think we consider it a bother. I always enjoy hearing from parents and my kids about an assignment or some extra help. I even have former students email me because they need some help with college papers [[one is currently working on his Master's).

I am not referring to crappy teachers in any of my posts [[and there are plenty). I am referring to those teachers who really care and love what they do.

[Ravine]

This discussion is an interesting one. I'm going to stay out of it, mostly, because I'm not a teacher and my kids are adults.

There is quite a bit of disagreement, within this thread, but I'm going to make a statement which I think will be met with near-unanimous support.

A big part of the entire problem:
We "Baby-Boomers," as a group, have generally fumbled the ball, when it comes to the parenting game. Many of us, even those whose families did not have much money, are spoiled little snot-noses who never dealt with severe hardship, and we turned into a pack of self-absorbed quasi-adults who still believe that the sun rises solely for the purpose of shining on our vacuous heads and the moon comes up to make sure that our asses are still lazy. Our generation spends too much time on "finding oneself," an activity which seldom produces a self worth discovering and which leaves our kids to figure out, for themselves, what the hell to do next.

I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the generation of kids foisted off upon the world by my own damned generation, much less try to teach them anything.

So, now that we are about a half-generation forward from that group, I don't want to even think about what teaching must be like.

[rjk]

So what exactly is your point? When there is a teacher's strike or millage, they interview/talk to the teachers and of course that's going come up. Should they not mention it?

My point is that I don't buy the claim that they're spending as much money as they say. I can't say that I blame them for trying. When you're trying to get more money out of the tax payers you need to make yourself seem as needy as you can.

[JBMcB]

I highlighted the "supply side economics" error in your statement. A school is not a for-profit factory.

True, but the school system is still constrained by the amount of available capital, and there needs to be some sort of check on wages, otherwise you get the situation in California where bus drivers make make more than teachers, based solely on seniority.

I highlighted the second error - and pardon the venom, but you were told that by your television, and you have no idea if there is a due process for removing a tenured teacher or not.

I was told by anex-teacher of mine. After I graduated high school I asked why a couple of teachers were still employed even though they were simply terrible, and pretty much everyone agreed that they needed to retire. The answer - they were tenured and the union went to bat for them when they were written up for below poor performance. Good job, union, I learned a lot listening to my freshman English teacher snore for twenty minutes a day.

Also: why no accountability for administration ? They hire these "lousy" teachers you speak of.

Don't you mean the school board who oversees the administration? Wouldn't that be *our* job? Anyhow most of the lousy teachers I've had worked for the school system for decades. They were probably good teachers in the beginning [[in fact, my aunt had a teacher I considered incompetent and remembered her to be fantastic.)

It is all fake - and it is simply about union busting.

I've had too much personal experience with unions to buy that horse crap. I have no problem with unions who protect their workers from exploitative and corrupt administrations. I have a major problem with unions who automatically defend everyone for any reason.

[DetroitTeacher]

My point is that I don't buy the claim that they're spending as much money as they say. I can't say that I blame them for trying. When you're trying to get more money out of the tax payers you need to make yourself seem as needy as you can.

I have receipts for everything I buy for my job. I'd be happy to show them to you and you can sit and add it all up.

[sumas]

No one should question the extreme value of an excellent teacher.

Why not set up a thread [[two actually) one talking about really inspirational teachers and one about the bottom feeders.

Frankly, it's a bit more fun relaying horror stories.

I support the teachers union and really do understand that the union reps must represent the good and bad.

So I guess I straddle the fence. A great teacher can make all the difference and a lousy one can too.

My husband and I taught Sunday school for several years, surprisingly before we had kids. Wouldn't do it again.

We had this one kid that after a bible lesson and asked to draw a picture of the lesson drew a picture he entitled, Dead Jesus". It was pretty graphic and kind of scary. Went to the pastor, thinking this was a very disturbed child and the pastor said, Oh he just needs love and hugs.

Perhaps that is how teachers feel about administraters. The support just isn't there for teachers dealing with very disturbed children.

Sumas

[firstandten]

The institutional failure of our educational system is a massive one. The educational system is dysfunctional and requires an almost complete overhaul not just a tweak here and there.

Every stakeholder in this system can share some of the blame including the students. Un-motiavated lazy students can stand in line to get there portion of blame as well. Granted at the elementary levels the responsibility lies almost totally with the parent. However at the high school level, its time for these young people to grow up. You have high school kids who won't do the work, and give the teacher a hard time if the teachers attempts to pressure the kid to do the work.
Because of the times we live in too many of these kids want to be entertained, and won't take the time to read books in which a payoff might not be immediate.

While I'm at it let me add that I think grading on a curve is the worst thing to happen to us educationally. I think that over time it has led to grade inflation and a dumbing down of the overall curriculum standards.

Failing a class does not mean you're a failure, it serves as a reality check that you need to work harder, put more effort into your studies. But when you live in a society that gives out trophies for participation, grading on a curve is just a natural extention of that process.

[pffft]

Anyone who is in a union or supports organized labor, look hard at the United Way and its role in funding the "Waiting for Superman" faux-documentary and promoting an anti-union agenda.

The United Way is funded by payroll donations, many from union members in the Detroit area. Don't allow yourself to be used.

[ja!mz]

If teaching is so bad, with your bloated salaries and entitlement mentality with the teachers union, go work in a coal mine you will be much happier

[pffft]

Re the above post about "bloated salaries"...it's sad but I see the same resentment toward teachers that there used to be toward auto workers. How dare you make a decent wage, when I'm struggling. How dare you have good benefits.

As if bringing them down to your level is the right thing to do. Instead, why not work to bring yourself up? Better yourself and get a master's degree, and then you can lecture those with master's degrees about what they should or shouldn't earn.

[DetroitTeacher]

Firstandten: I share your philosophy about grading on a curve. I do straight grading. I do slide my kids with learning disabilities some slack, though. I won't fail a kid who tried THEIR best [[I have cognitively impaired kids in my class, as well as those with just some minor LDs). Some of the kids I have can't even write their own name [[due to their impairment). They aren't working on a high school diploma, just a certificate of completion. These are the kids who won't be attending college, they'll be greeters at Wal-Mart and the like. Do they bust their butts in my class to participate and to be included with all the other kids? Yes, indeed. I have one student with a cognitive impairment who, while he can't write it, recites original poetry that is very moving. He listens and can hold a conversation about the readings. He is quirky and does things his own way. Does he complete my assignments and take tests like the rest of the kids? Nope, he just can't do it. He has an IEP and we work on his goals from that IEP. I have oodles of kids just like him [[DPS went to full inclusion).

I'd say about 2/3 of my students have some sort of disability [[that has been identified) and some others aren't even identified as having a disability [[but they do). For each of those kids, I have to individualize their instruction, make accomodations and modifications, make Behavior Intervention Plans [[and make sure they stick to it), and make sure they are learning. It's tough grading kids who are trying THEIR best but are still not meeting the goals that the district says they should be meeting in that particular grade level. More than half of my 6th hour is Emotionally Impaired [[they've been diagnosed). EACH of them has a behavior issue [[or two, or three). Some are more severe than others. I am responsible for making sure they are learning, while at the same time dealing with EACH behavior issue as they come up. Some parents save the kid's meds for when they come home so THEY don't have to deal with the behaviors. That leaves me to deal with kids who need meds but don't have them while at school and they are all over the place and not concentrating on what's going on in class. That isn't the student's fault...it's the parent's fault.

If blame is to be placed anywhere for a kid who isn't learning [[and who is fully capable of doing so), it's partially on the parents because most of the parents I deal with don't value education, their kid can do no wrong, and I'm not doing enough to help their kid. The rest of the blame is on the student. Some students just don't care. I have a few kids who are in school because their parents need the SSI check [[they do NO work but attend each day and cause a rucus). I have a few kids who are in school because the court said they had to be [[again, no work...just behavior issues). I have more than few kids who really want to learn but it's difficult because they are being bothered by those who are there because they HAVE to be [[and most of my attention is focused on the kids who are causing problems).

Out of the 100+ kids I have each day, I saw TWO parents for parent teacher conferences and one parent was in denial that her child is causing major disturbances in class [[very bright kid but he's more focused on calling attention to himself and is one of my worst behavior issues in class). The other parent has a great kid who is working hard and does what he needs to do. I would really like to know where the other 98+ parents were. Oh sure, I see them when their kid complains that I don't accept their 2 week late paper. When I call to find out where a student is because they've been absent for over a week, I get yelled at and hung up on. I did call one student's home to report that the kid has been doing much better in my class and the parent told me not to call again, I woke her up. THAT is what I deal with. I don't teach special ed...my class is gen ed with inclusion.

Despite all of the issues and problems, I still love what I do and am there because the kids need me to be.

Sorry, just on a rant....

[lafayette]

Detroitteacher, hats off to you. How can people villify you for being lazy and overpaid for a cushy job? Fox news is so good at making lies believable.

[GOAT]

Melatron, you could go to school to be just that, an asshole millionaire hedge fund advisor, if that is what you want to be. But be prepared for any backlash. Just like lawyers, they too are the brunt of many jokes are hated across the spectrum of the entire population.

In Ontario teachers are paid unemployment when they are off on summers and I had thought there were other states that had that as well.

Lafayette et al. I never begrudged teachers a good salary. In fact I think teachers should be paid well but with that should come the responsibility of being a great teacher. There are many, too many who reach tenure and then park their asses. But I will be damned if a profession is well paid and then hear the constant grumbling of "woe is me" from this sector on an almost monthly basis. Take into the fact that the amout of times teachers strike [[on this side of the border) it does little to instill faith in the current system.
I have some friends who are outstanding teachers and I know of some who are worthless. How to remove the terrible ones, I don't know?

Ravine, makes a great point. Parents themselves have looked at schools as a babysitting service and don't get involved in their childs education enough. That is the fault of too complacent parents. Education works best when both sides work for the betterment of the children.

[firstandten]

DT

I know for a fact that trying to teach in a large [[soon to be larger) classroom with a significant number of kids with some kind of impairment or disability is an extremely difficult task. It is as difficult as any job in private industry, and they can't pay you enough for that. I was referring to relatively normal hard-headed teenage kids who can't or won't see the big picture.

As a Detroit taxpayer let me say that I appreciate your efforts on behalf of DPS and its kids.

[firstandten]

Mauser, you're exactly right on every point you make, although I disagree with your asides about the UAW. But that's not the focus of this thread.

Two things are different now and you touch so well on one of them - the right-wing propaganda that has successfully convinced the ignorant American public that public school teachers are lazy, overpaid union members.

The second elephant in the room no one talks about is the parents of today's kids. They are a good part of the reason class sizes are so big and schools are being nickled and dimed [["It's my money! No new taxes!"). Parenting today and its shortfalls are also a big cause of why teaching is so hard today. Parents today are their kid's attorneys there to make sure their child is always happy, always #1, and experiences nothing to hurt his "self-esteem." Since the beginning of time up until today's crop of indulgent parents came along, kids were taught [[correctly) they had to earn self esteem, not be granted it, and that adults are not here to make you feel happy all the time and entertain you. Kids now are taught that that is adult's primary role in their lives. It makes them unteachable because there are no expectations, automatically granted self esteem and no fear of repercussions for doing substandard work or misbehaving in school because A) your parent will always defend any behavior and not back up the school/teacher and B) your teacher's hands are tied by parents and principals from doing anything but granting self esteem, regardless of what the student is doing.

Up until today's generation of parents, a huge part of the reason kids did OK in school was structure, reinforcement and backing up of the SCHOOL'S goals in the classroom by the parents, not telling the child you are perfect in every way and mommy and daddy will always fight those mean teachers if they do anything or say anything you don't like because your self esteem can't be taken away no matter what you do! You're a wonderful child no matter what and you come first, not doing what your teacher expects of you.

What's too often missing in kids who aren't learning can be laid at the feet of their parents, NOT TEACHERS OR THE SCHOOL; parents who don't reinforce what the teachers are trying to do in terms of curriculum [[making sure their homework is done, they have proper rest and nutrition, proper attention spans to sit for more than 30 seconds), self-control in the classroom so students can learn and teachers can teach, and a healthy respect for authority in the classroom. These things can only be done by parents, not teachers. They used to be done automatically by most parents and teachers could expect that they were living up to their end of the education bargain on these issues. It's not done in so many cases now.

Here's what too many teachers get now from most parents: arrogant/advocate parents to deal with and entitled/low-attention span children to try to teach, all created by the parents. But when it's time to blame someone for a poor outcome, the teacher gets 100% of the blame for poor learning when the parent didn't live up to his/her responsibilities that are critical to the success of the education process.

I'm sick and tired of no one looking at the parents and how they don't prepare their children to learn in a classroom setting.

When does the big debate about what's wrong with education ever, ever include today's parents and what they're doing wrong? Almost never. Why? Parenting creates the student mindset that the teacher has to work with in the first place and parents have to back up what the teacher is doing in order for the teacher to succeed. So, why are they left out of the criticism? It gets back to Mauser's correct theory, that "fixing" education is about union busting, plain and simple. If they really wanted to fix it they'd be putting parents under as big a microscope as they put teachers because parents are at least half of the equation of what creates good learning in students.

Great post

I think over time in this forum we have seen a shift in the assigning of blame. When I first came on here, the teachers were getting bashed big time. I think now that people had have a chance to really think about the issue, folks are seeing that parents are a major cause for the failure of kids not getting educated.

When my children were of school age, my expectations were that the teacher could call me at any time for any reason and whatever the issue was it would be addressed promptly. In return I wanted to see my children get their best effort educationally. I only had a few exceptions where that wasn't the case.

[Patrick]

Seems like we have an awful lot of recent education graduates coming out of our universities looking for work in other states. The problem is that once these young teachers move away...they aren't coming back. Michigan seems to be graduating a lot of brainpower, yet cannot seem to hold onto it. I wonder if it would be effective to have some sort of mandatory retirement age just so that we can get the younger teachers in the dooor. It should be 40 years of service and then you are given the boot.