Bashing Public School Teachers

[Ravine]

Seems like we have an awful lot of recent education graduates coming out of our universities looking for work in other states. The problem is that once these young teachers move away...they aren't coming back. Michigan seems to be graduating a lot of brainpower, yet cannot seem to hold onto it. I wonder if it would be effective to have some sort of mandatory retirement age just so that we can get the younger teachers in the dooor. It should be 40 years of service and then you are given the boot.

Sounds like you are nowhere near retirement, Patrick. I would love to retire at the very instant I become eligible to do so, but I really don't see how I will be able to afford it.
And, not to thread-jack, but once the majority of my generation reaches the age where we should be able to collect Social Security, not only does that collection sound unlikely, I half-way expect that, instead of a check, they will issue an invoice.

[mauser]

"Merit Based Pay"

Here is another bracketed comment; While I complain bitterly about my own public education experience, the truth is that I was a horrible student on top of that. I had a troubled childhood, and in high school I was in a pretty bad place. If any of my teachers pay checks were somehow directly tied to MY academic performance, they would have been unfairly punished for my unwillingness to participate. I was a stubborn mule. This was because of my home life, not because of the teachers - so how will "Merit Based Pay" handle the issue of parental accountability ?

[DetroitTeacher]

I am not in favor of merit pay for teachers for the exact reasons you mentioned, mauser. I can't help what goes on in a student's home. I can't do anything about their not having electricity or running water or a bed to sleep in. I can't do anything about their lack of a proper diet [[ although I do make sure the kids have a warm meal at school, purchasing it myself if necessary). A kid won't be able to do jack diddly on a test [[which would be used to determine my merit pay) if their home life is miserable. I have had students who missed excessive days of school because their parent was a drug addict and they had to "babysit" their younger siblings because the parent was on a binge. I also had a young lady who was up all night holding her mother's head out of the toilet because mom was dopesick. She broke down in my class [[she was physically and mentally exhausted). I put her in the teacher's lounge so she could get some rest and feel safe doing so [[she said she rarely sleeps when she's home because of the junkies in her house...she didn't feel safe). I also had her speak to the social worker at school and he provided her with some help. Her mom overdosed not long after that and my student went into the system. She managed to remain in school and is now working on her Bachelor's degree at one of the better universities. I busted my hump to get this kid financial aid and some scholarships so she wouldn't have to worry about having a place to live, food to eat, and get her education, too. I also pulled some strings at the college she wanted to attend. She still calls me, regularly.

I can't make parents be parents. None of us can. I can only work with what those parents send me and sometimes it isn't pretty. I treat each kid as if they were my own. I try and see things from their perspective. I can rarely assign actual homework because most of my kids don't have an opportunity to actually do it at home. I provide kids with time in class to get work done and am very accepting of "late" work for most of my kids.

I am one of few who really understands the whole home life situation with most of my kids. Many teachers hear no excuses and refuse to work with a kid who is having issues at home. Some may say I am not preparing them for the real world of work. I say I am having some compassion because no one else does in the kid's life. Usually when they get out of the home situation [[go to college), they don't have the need to have such accomodations and they really do step up to the plate. I always try and talk my students into living on campus. It just seems to make things go much smoother for them to get out of a crappy home situation.

[mauser]

I did have a few teachers who really cared, and really tried with me. And I broke their hearts. Looking back, I cant imagine how frustrating that was for them....although I see it with all my friends who are teachers, and when they talk about kids who are like I was, I cringe.

Then they are dealing with emotionally impaired, impoverished, learning disabled, and English as Second Language kids in a multi-cultural environment. I cant think of any other job quite like a school teacher.

[DetroitTeacher]

When someone is working with a human being and trying to get an end product [[some knowledge put into the kid) it really isn't like working on a car where there is an easy solution to get it running [[ok, maybe not so easy but a car is a car is a car). Kids can't be compared to ANYTHING else in ANY other profession [[except the health profession). People kick out cars, parts for cars, engineering ideas, burgers, do-dads, electronic equipment and anything else a person can think of. There is a set process to do each of those jobs. Follow the directions and BAM...end product [[yes, even with ideas). With kids, it's much different because we are working with individuals with minds of their own, each with their own issues and ideas. No two kids are alike. No two kids learn alike. I've never met a kid who didn't think they knew it all. I never met a kid who didn't think the world was falling apart when something went wrong in their relationship with a boy/girl/parents/friends. Their world falling apart makes it impossible for them to learn in any meaningful way.

Comparing teachers to mechanics or engineers or burger flippers or cashiers is crazy. We work with humans and all the issues that go with that. We can't force a kid to do something. We can't junk a kid like you can a car. We can't start over with a kid like you can an idea if something doesn't turn out just right. We can't send a kid back because it's defective. I dare anyone to do what I do with what I am given. Most people wouldn't last a week [[if they lasted the day). I have to keep going back in with something else up my sleeve for each and every kid, each and every day. I have to smile and not cry my heart out when they tell me some of the things they confide in me. I have to step back and not go to their home and hurt their parent for hurting the kid [[there has been more than one occasion when I felt like blasting a parent in the face for what they've done to their kid). I have to risk my job each day to give a kid a hug because it's the only hug they might get. I bring in coats and warm clothing for my kids because they came to school in a t-shirt [[and no coat). I buy shoes for my kids because they outgrew/wore out the pair they had from a few years ago and their parents can't or won't buy them what they need. I bring in my son's old suits so that a kid might have something to wear to an interview or a funeral or graduation or prom.

Funny, but you can keep your cushy offices and posh careers that pay much more than I make. You can keep your evenings for your families and enjoy vacations to the tropics. You can keep your company credit card. You can keep your suit and tie and expensive watch. You can slam me all you want for being a teacher with "awesome benefits" and summers off. I'll keep my kids, with all of their issues, all of their tears, all of their crappy homes, all of their attitudes, all of their learning disabilities. I'll keep going to school and giving up my evenings and weekends. I'll continue to wear the same shoes I've been wearing for years. I'll continue to go into work each day and see a kid "get it" or write his name for the first time. I'll continue to battle the bullshit of incompetence and red tape and lack of supplies. I'll do it because I can. I'll do it because those kids need someone in their corner and it might as well be me because I don't see too many other people standing in line to do what I do. They are missing out, though, because I have the opportunity to inspire someone, to show a kid someone cares, to wipe away the tear, to give the hug, to laugh, and to make a difference [[even if it's just for one kid, it's worth it). I'd say I have the best job in the world. I get more satisfaction and gratification from my job than just about anyone else.

[Parkguy]

That was the most eloquent thing I've read all week, Detroit Teacher.

[Magnatomicflux]

I think so too. I'm really enjoying reading about how passionate she is about her kids. I don't have anything to comment on other than her words.
I've only had 2 teachers like that in all my time at school.

[English]

DetroitTeacher, as always, you are amazing.

Here's a great post about what teaching is like in the countries with the best test scores:

How Do Successful School Systems Treat Teachers?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sabrin..._b_793559.html

[DetroitTeacher]

English: Great article. Although any teacher can say the exact same things as mentioned in the article, it's nice to see that someone else gets it, too. I've traveled the world and when someone finds out I'm a teacher, there is an entirely different attitude taken on by that person [[much respect is slipped my way by others in foreign countries). I don't get that here. I get scornful looks, rolling eyes, the "gee, it must be nice to have so much vacation time" comments, and the age old questions of "WHY?"

I think if teaching/school/learning were all valued here in the USA, things might just change in the public school system. I went to a professional development on Friday and didn't learn anything new. It was, in fact, a repeat of what we did this summer [[yes, in the summer). Total waste of my time! I'd love to have meaningful prof. development workshops. I'd love to be seen for all I do, not looked down upon because I teach [[I like to say those who can, do...those who can do more, teach).

[firstandten]

English: Great article. Although any teacher can say the exact same things as mentioned in the article, it's nice to see that someone else gets it, too. I've traveled the world and when someone finds out I'm a teacher, there is an entirely different attitude taken on by that person [[much respect is slipped my way by others in foreign countries). I don't get that here. I get scornful looks, rolling eyes, the "gee, it must be nice to have so much vacation time" comments, and the age old questions of "WHY?"

Here's one of the problems DT, there is a perception that college students get into education because its easy, and they couldn't hack it in the more technical majors. Now rightly or wrongly many people feel that way. I saw students in my college who were in education that I would never want teaching my kids and if they ended up teaching them I knew I would have to monitor them . I believe if the colleges upped the standards this perception would, if not go away be greatly reduced

[DetroitTeacher]

firstandten: I totally agree. I had some classmates in college who I would NEVER want teaching my child. Shoot, 3 graduate degrees later and I STILL have classmates [[who are not working) that I would NEVER want near kids [[although I think it's more personality issues than training). Like the article states, though, is that overseas they have it right. Their colleges pick from the best and brightest to be teachers. Teaching isn't considered substandard [[and they are paid just as well as other professions with the same degrees), therefore the best and brightest do become teachers. Teachers overseas are given supports that we here in the US don't have [[mentors, training prior to going into the College of Ed.). Not sure if it's a chicken or egg scenerio here. Perhaps if teaching were reverted back to being a noble profession, we could attract some of the more stellar candidates and the colleges COULD have more rigorous coursework [[although I can say that I had pretty tough professors and they expected much of us and my university is very well respected and has a great reputation for teacher training).

[DetroitFats]

English,
The article you refer to states that " . . .teachers should teach, develop and evaluate each other [[and that every facet of education -- from teacher training to school leadership -- should be informed and led by professional educators)." If this were the case, however, how would the Robert Bobbs of this world, who have never taught a class in their lives, continue to earn half a million dollars a year? Wouldn't an idea like this curtail the huge salaries of those who cannot or will not spend five minutes with the kids [[unless there is a camera present)? How can someone propose that teachers, not business executives, should be in charge of education?

[English]

English,
The article you refer to states that " . . .teachers should teach, develop and evaluate each other [[and that every facet of education -- from teacher training to school leadership -- should be informed and led by professional educators)." If this were the case, however, how would the Robert Bobbs of this world, who have never taught a class in their lives, continue to earn half a million dollars a year? Wouldn't an idea like this curtail the huge salaries of those who cannot or will not spend five minutes with the kids [[unless there is a camera present)? How can someone propose that teachers, not business executives, should be in charge of education?

Ha! Exactly. The education system is broken. There are many individuals who aren't doing their jobs, and they need to be fired. BUT I subscribe neither to the "No Testing Company Left Behind" philosophy of education, nor the "No Child With Decent Parents Left Behind" philosophy of urban charter schooling. Reform is needed, but I don't believe that Bobb [[or Rhee, or Guggenheim, or Gates) know what they're doing.

[pffft]

One of the best takedowns of Michelle Rhee that I saw was when she was being interviewed by Eliot Spitzer on CNN not long ago. She was spouting off, talking fast about all her accomplishments with the D.C. system and what she "knew" about education, but when she said confidently that class size had nothing to do with how kids learn, Spitzer went at her. Talking equally fast, he said this was something he knew about, that as NY governor he'd helped push through a law mandating smaller class sizes, and the kids had done better across the board, after that.

[canuck]

When someone is working with a human being and trying to get an end product [[some knowledge put into the kid) it really isn't like working on a car where there is an easy solution to get it running [[ok, maybe not so easy but a car is a car is a car). Kids can't be compared to ANYTHING else in ANY other profession [[except the health profession). People kick out cars, parts for cars, engineering ideas, burgers, do-dads, electronic equipment and anything else a person can think of. There is a set process to do each of those jobs. Follow the directions and BAM...end product [[yes, even with ideas). With kids, it's much different because we are working with individuals with minds of their own, each with their own issues and ideas. No two kids are alike. No two kids learn alike. I've never met a kid who didn't think they knew it all. I never met a kid who didn't think the world was falling apart when something went wrong in their relationship with a boy/girl/parents/friends. Their world falling apart makes it impossible for them to learn in any meaningful way.

Comparing teachers to mechanics or engineers or burger flippers or cashiers is crazy. We work with humans and all the issues that go with that. We can't force a kid to do something. We can't junk a kid like you can a car. We can't start over with a kid like you can an idea if something doesn't turn out just right. We can't send a kid back because it's defective. I dare anyone to do what I do with what I am given. Most people wouldn't last a week [[if they lasted the day). I have to keep going back in with something else up my sleeve for each and every kid, each and every day. I have to smile and not cry my heart out when they tell me some of the things they confide in me. I have to step back and not go to their home and hurt their parent for hurting the kid [[there has been more than one occasion when I felt like blasting a parent in the face for what they've done to their kid). I have to risk my job each day to give a kid a hug because it's the only hug they might get. I bring in coats and warm clothing for my kids because they came to school in a t-shirt [[and no coat). I buy shoes for my kids because they outgrew/wore out the pair they had from a few years ago and their parents can't or won't buy them what they need. I bring in my son's old suits so that a kid might have something to wear to an interview or a funeral or graduation or prom.

Funny, but you can keep your cushy offices and posh careers that pay much more than I make. You can keep your evenings for your families and enjoy vacations to the tropics. You can keep your company credit card. You can keep your suit and tie and expensive watch. You can slam me all you want for being a teacher with "awesome benefits" and summers off. I'll keep my kids, with all of their issues, all of their tears, all of their crappy homes, all of their attitudes, all of their learning disabilities. I'll keep going to school and giving up my evenings and weekends. I'll continue to wear the same shoes I've been wearing for years. I'll continue to go into work each day and see a kid "get it" or write his name for the first time. I'll continue to battle the bullshit of incompetence and red tape and lack of supplies. I'll do it because I can. I'll do it because those kids need someone in their corner and it might as well be me because I don't see too many other people standing in line to do what I do. They are missing out, though, because I have the opportunity to inspire someone, to show a kid someone cares, to wipe away the tear, to give the hug, to laugh, and to make a difference [[even if it's just for one kid, it's worth it). I'd say I have the best job in the world. I get more satisfaction and gratification from my job than just about anyone else.

Wow!

I must say, whenever I go to school for a parent teacher reunion, just walking into a school corridor and hearing the noise and getting a sense of what it is like dealing with all the personalities in a class, it takes a special kind of person to not only deal with that but also enjoy it. We have the same issues with school boards with too much office staff and too few special education assistants. The same issues affect hospitals and clinics here where the so-called support staff is often bloated to the detriment of doctors and nurses. Committees convene and discuss age old issues about how to make the system more effective all the while taking resources away from healthcare. Thanks for taking care of OUR KIDS!

[Zacha341]

Smaller classes is often ridculed and mocked from the concept of large classes of the past and how that worked. That format does not work now... a reasonable smaller class size is an advantage to the student. This is true at the primary, secondary and post-secondary college level.

One of the best takedowns of Michelle Rhee that I saw was when she was being interviewed by Eliot Spitzer on CNN not long ago. She was spouting off, talking fast about all her accomplishments with the D.C. system and what she "knew" about education, but when she said confidently that class size had nothing to do with how kids learn, Spitzer went at her. Talking equally fast, he said this was something he knew about, that as NY governor he'd helped push through a law mandating smaller class sizes, and the kids had done better across the board, after that.