'stay and fight'

[BrushStart]

I think most folks have a huge problem, then!

I know it is merely human nature to feel more comfortable around those who look like the fool in your mirror...but if you only surround yourself with like-minded individuals, your mind gets no exercise...and atrophies.

Same with one's heart and soul, too.



I think that BECAUSE race has been such a divider, that is exactly why we need to ignore it in our conversation, as we plan a civilization and society beyond this horribly ignorant topic.

That is the ONLY logical way I can see us growing together, indeed the neighborhoods and groups where race has CEASED to be an issue are the only ones forging progress in our time, and will continue to do so.


Anyone who only goes skin deep on any trouble is too shallow to be part of any successful transcendence of it.


Cheers!

Gannon, you and I see eye-to-eye. Injecting race into the conversation is counterproductive. The faster we get to the common denominator- that we are all human beings- the faster we can have a productive discussion. Any mention of race is only going to distract from the real issues, especially if the discussion makes members of one race feel that they are being viewed as inferior or the source of the problem. They will immediately become defensive and stall. Skin color is a non-issue if we assume that all human beings are equally capable of the task and share the same objective.

[Augustiner]

Gannon, you and I see eye-to-eye. Injecting race into the conversation is counterproductive. The faster we get to the common denominator- that we are all human beings- the faster we can have a productive discussion. Any mention of race is only going to distract from the real issues, especially if the discussion makes members of one race feel that they are being viewed as inferior or the source of the problem. They will immediately become defensive and stall. Skin color is a non-issue if we assume that all human beings are equally capable of the task and share the same objective.

Except that leaving race out of the conversation makes it impossible to acquire a thorough, factual understanding of the issues plaguing Detroit and the larger society. If you look at our society without reference to race and the impact it has on the relationship between individuals and society, the conclusions you form will inevitably be incorrect, and the resulting policy prescriptions downright dangerous.

[Jimaz]

Whenever I am in a group or area, and everyone looks mostly like me...my strongest desire is to flee.

You aren't the only one: Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich

[BrushStart]

Except that leaving race out of the conversation makes it impossible to acquire a thorough, factual understanding of the issues plaguing Detroit and the larger society. If you look at our society without reference to race and the impact it has on the relationship between individuals and society, the conclusions you form will inevitably be incorrect, and the resulting policy prescriptions downright dangerous.

Yes, maybe, but it is impractical to believe that one could ever have such a conversation without one side blowing up. Here's an example how it might go:

RACE1 says to RACE2, "There's a lot of bad things happening right now."

RACE2 responds, "Yeah, I know, isn't it just terrible what's been happening?"

RACE1 says, "We should really try and figure out what the problem is to find some solutions."

RACE2 says, "Yeah, I think that there's a lot of problems with single-parent households leading to drug abuse among youths. What do you think?"

RACE1 responds, "Well, the problem definitely seems primarily limited to people of RACE2 living in CITY-X, if only those RACE2s could act more like RACE1s, and follow our lead, things would get better."

RACE2 asserts, "This has nothing to do with being RACE2. It has to do with a history of inequality leading up to the destruction of our social fabric."

RACE1 then defends his position by stating, "Whatever the situation is, RACE2 seems to be incapable of fixing RACE2's problems, while RACE1 doesn't have out-of-control crime and schools with a 50% dropout rate."

RACE2, feeling that she is being viewed as an inferior to all RACE1s argues, "I don't think race has anything to do with it! The problems are systemic to discrimination and economic inequality, clearly all people of RACE2 are not the same, and a lot of RACE1s are also screw ups, just look at [insert stereotypical white trash community]... they are a mess too!"

At this point, RACE1 either goes on to defend the honor of his fellow RACE1s, argues that there are far more problems among the RACE2s than RACE1s, concedes that there are cultural differences that can't be rectified, or most likely says that if RACE2s don't want the help of RACE1s, then they can piss off.

RACE2, who is clearly irritated by now, ends the conversation with, "I knew RACE1s didn't care. They are nothing but a bunch of racists who can't see beyond skin color."

There must have been thousands of conversations that went just like that over the years. Trying to go at this from a racial perspective distracts from finding solutions to the core issues, such as how do we combat a broken culture, not a broke race.

[Augustiner]

Yes, maybe, but it is impractical to believe that one could ever have such a conversation without one side blowing up. Here's an example how it might go:

RACE1 says to RACE2, "There's a lot of bad things happening right now."

RACE2 responds, "Yeah, I know, isn't it just terrible what's been happening?"

RACE1 says, "We should really try and figure out what the problem is to find some solutions."

RACE2 says, "Yeah, I think that there's a lot of problems with single-parent households leading to drug abuse among youths. What do you think?"

RACE1 responds, "Well, the problem definitely seems primarily limited to people of RACE2 living in CITY-X, if only those RACE2s could act more like RACE1s, and follow our lead, things would get better."

RACE2 asserts, "This has nothing to do with being RACE2. It has to do with a history of inequality leading up to the destruction of our social fabric."

RACE1 then defends his position by stating, "Whatever the situation is, RACE2 seems to be incapable of fixing RACE2's problems, while RACE1 doesn't have out-of-control crime and schools with a 50% dropout rate."

RACE2, feeling that she is being viewed as an inferior to all RACE1s argues, "I don't think race has anything to do with it! The problems are systemic to discrimination and economic inequality, clearly all people of RACE2 are not the same, and a lot of RACE1s are also screw ups, just look at [insert stereotypical white trash community]... they are a mess too!"

At this point, RACE1 either goes on to defend the honor of his fellow RACE1s, argues that there are far more problems among the RACE2s than RACE1s, concedes that there are cultural differences that can't be rectified, or most likely says that if RACE2s don't want the help of RACE1s, then they can piss off.

RACE2, who is clearly irritated by now, ends the conversation with, "I knew RACE1s didn't care. They are nothing but a bunch of racists who can't see beyond skin color."

There must have been thousands of conversations that went just like that over the years. Trying to go at this from a racial perspective distracts from finding solutions to the core issues, such as how do we combat a broken culture, not a broke race.

Using "culture" as a proxy for race doesn't make your hypothetical conversation any more productive or less heated. The only difference is that it's a lot easier for the RACE1 dude in your conversation to deflect accusations that what he's saying is bigoted and prejudiced if he claims he's only talking about "culture."

[BrushStart]

Using "culture" as a proxy for race doesn't make your hypothetical conversation any more productive or less heated. The only difference is that it's a lot easier for the RACE1 dude in your conversation to deflect accusations that what he's saying is bigoted and prejudiced if he claims he's only talking about "culture."

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Culture can transcend race. Saying that a culture where people engage in X,Y, and Z leads to severe social problems is much different that saying people of RACE-X have severe social problems. The former can lead to productive discussions, while the latter leads to further animosity. The bottom line is, race is either a factor at the core of the problem, or it isn't. If we agree that human beings are human beings regardless of race, then there's no point to drawing a line in the sand. It just causes problems. Things get ugly when you attempt to generalize based on race, because most people don't want to be insulted or looked at as inferior or incapable because their ancestors were exposed to more UV light than other people.

[Augustiner]

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Culture can transcend race. Saying that a culture where people engage in X,Y, and Z leads to severe social problems is much different that saying people of RACE-X have severe social problems. The former can lead to productive discussions, while the latter leads to further animosity.

No need to be sorry; if we all agreed on everything, there'd be nothing to discuss.

Anyway, culture doesn't exist in a vacuum, it comes from somewhere. If you ignore why and how cultures develop, you will not be able to engage them productively. Culture needs to be viewed in terms of its relationship to other factors, including the vastly different ways members of different racial groups experience life in our society. Otherwise, it's easy to dismiss certain cultural traits as simply irrational and self-destructive, and thereby quash all discussion of the perverse societal incentives that caused those traits to develop.

Is it easy to have these conversations? Of course not. These are complicated, nuanced issues that produce very strong emotional reactions in most people. I just don't think that's a good reason to avoid discussing them.

[Ravine]

Oh, but you've now done it TWICE, so you're right...it looks like I need to find a larger, more encompassing term for your avoidance of the simple question.


LOL, seems I'm NOT that far away after all.

You're acting like an idiot. I've twice explained that your question [[which is broad, and opens up a whole new vista of sub-topics) came from somewhere inside of you and had no connection-- other than, perhaps, one you are insisting on internally feeling-- to the point I was making with my post.
It appears that you are determined to drag me into a discussion that you are having inside of your own head, and that's one sand-box out of which ol' Ravine is going to fucking stay, I'll tell yew hwat.

If you want to bring up broad questions on race-- a subject of which, you may recall, you pretend to barely recognize the meaning-- start your own damn thread. Don't try to inject your far-flung conceptual horseshit into my posts and then have the idiotic audacity to accuse me of "wimping out" because I'm not fucking moronic enough to take your cheesy little flea-bitten bait.

[Gannon]

You just contradicted yourself here.

And


If you check to see if people look like you and then desire to flee then aren't you only 'going skin deep' and thereby become the shallow one?

If my error leads to greater GOOD, which would be integration, then I fully accept this flaw.

Thanks for pointing it out!


I'll check myself when this urge hits me again...but a lifelong of experience in monoculture experiences has led to this conclusion.


It is always good to have another inconsistency amplified...it sure is fun being human. We are all merely a collection of flaws, I have never...EVER...said I was perfect, or a 'God' [[as another poster boasted in another thread recently!).


Cheers

[Gannon]

Yes it is human nature that's why there's nothing wrong with it.

Hey, I hear you about race being a divider, but that's the way things have always been in America... that's not going to change overnight. Ignoring it and hoping it will go away [[especially here in Detroit) is not the way to go friend. Race has to be discussed in order for that divider to go away.

I couldn't disagree with you more forcefully.

There are many things of 'human nature' that can be modified. We may be perfectly mammalian, but we may be the only species that can ponder pondering. We can consider that we can think, perceive, feel, and adjust our behavior when it isn't suitable for co-habitation with others.

Depending on how much strength we yield our egos, the mere human has the ability to rise way above our base natures. So, saying a thing is merely human nature doesn't excuse those who have learned better...but due our cyclical natures, it is likely we'll be better at it some days and worse on others...depending upon the energy we can expend on fighting our own basic reactions and especially dependent upon how important it is to us to get along with others.


I stand my ground on my insistence that simply discussing racism MAKES it an issue. With all of my friends, we get along. We love each other...not a one of us excludes others [[or considers differently) due their skin tone.

As soon as the issue is spoken forth, it is given power to divide.

The more people interact, and everyone learns that the stereotypes one has been raised with simply cannot be grossly and generally applied to a population due something as common as gender orientation or ethnic heritage, then true healing can become epidemic.


I DO suppose that racism can be brought forth into polite discussion, but only if it is always and continuously ridiculed and derided on all fronts. This you seldom hear, though, since it is more likely for someone to excuse THEIR behavior while pointing out poor behavior in others. Very few of us spend as much time with introspection and studying that fool in the mirror.

I say it that way precisely, so not a one of us takes ourselves SO seriously that we cannot laugh when we make mistakes...at least after those we've possibly injured or offended have been truly apologized to and reconciliation can commence. If we can learn to forgive and turn it to a joyful learning experience, then perhaps we can find some progress up and away from the murky mire we are currently stuck within. We need to also learn how to forgive ourselves, so looped behavior can be broken allowing personal growth to notch another victory.


Cheers!

[Gannon]

Gannon, you and I see eye-to-eye. Injecting race into the conversation is counterproductive. The faster we get to the common denominator- that we are all human beings- the faster we can have a productive discussion. Any mention of race is only going to distract from the real issues, especially if the discussion makes members of one race feel that they are being viewed as inferior or the source of the problem. They will immediately become defensive and stall. Skin color is a non-issue if we assume that all human beings are equally capable of the task and share the same objective.

Thanks.

Ditto on that last comment, and if I may amplify it a bit...it is also a non-issue if we assume that all human beings are equally capable of absolute horrors and need to guard against ourselves devolving into our worst potential.

I need to re-read Lord of the Flies. Between that and a book by C.S. Lewis called the Screwtape Letters...there can be great depth of understanding of base human behavior, along with the huge warning of what happens when we don't put positive energy into the equation.


Sincerely,
John

[Gannon]

Except that leaving race out of the conversation makes it impossible to acquire a thorough, factual understanding of the issues plaguing Detroit and the larger society. If you look at our society without reference to race and the impact it has on the relationship between individuals and society, the conclusions you form will inevitably be incorrect, and the resulting policy prescriptions downright dangerous.

I do not agree.

Detroit has had periodic over-boilings of the continuous simmering of race, likely due the forced inter-mingling of various ethnic groups during the job rushes of the early part of the twentieth century...when various groups ganged together for their protection and everyone reacted in fear and hatred, exacerbating the divide even between people of the SAME race. [[it is fallacy that ALL white folk enjoyed benefits from their skin color, as much as to say their isn't prejudice between those of color, based on how fair or dark they appear) It was obviously GREATLY amplified during the time of segregation, of course, when the force of the status quo kept the most easily-identified race falsely below their potential and abilities. [[which were the same, if not greater, than those who strove the hardest to stay on top of the heap)


We've had dialogue about race for many, many decades. There has been NO real and true progress, in my estimation the reverse is more true. About the only thing we can point to as some general progress is integration within restaurants. I cannot even say that schools have held onto some of the gains made in the past, since there have been setbacks. Then again, even schools within the same race have not been able to remain peaceful when they have been forced to merge.


I'd like to hear what you fear most about policy that might be designed with my pollyannish approach. I am aware that I speak in dreamy terms, hoping that more of the world may experience the same wonders I enjoy in my daily life.

Sincerely, I would love to know what you think would be a logical end to the path you are so forcefully saying is 'impossible'. I need to learn. Always.


Cheers!

[English]

Race still matters, but things are getting better in the metro region. 10 years ago, there were places I'd go in Oakland County where I was very definitely not welcome. These days, some of those same places not only have black customers, but blacks who work behind the counter. Southern Oakland and Macomb counties are slowly growing more integrated, and the percentage of whites in the city of Detroit continues to increase.

This can only be a good thing. In 1960, no one could have predicted the conditions of Detroit today, although there was evidence in plain sight that we were heading toward a cliff. Today, no one can predict what the Detroit of 2050 will be like, but we are planting those seeds today. I believe that both Detroit and this nation by mid-century will be unrecognizable to those of us living today, for good or for ill. I look forward to the ride.

[Gannon]

No need to be sorry; if we all agreed on everything, there'd be nothing to discuss.

Anyway, culture doesn't exist in a vacuum, it comes from somewhere. If you ignore why and how cultures develop, you will not be able to engage them productively. Culture needs to be viewed in terms of its relationship to other factors, including the vastly different ways members of different racial groups experience life in our society. Otherwise, it's easy to dismiss certain cultural traits as simply irrational and self-destructive, and thereby quash all discussion of the perverse societal incentives that caused those traits to develop.

Is it easy to have these conversations? Of course not. These are complicated, nuanced issues that produce very strong emotional reactions in most people. I just don't think that's a good reason to avoid discussing them.

Great post. I wish I'd read through the entire thread before answering directly to anyone earlier.


If I understand you correctly, what I've come to conclude is that we need to become the DRIVERS of how culture develops, instead of letting it devolve along the natural course [[which as I've said earlier is largely based upon each of us always being more comfortable hanging around with others who look like us...and eat like us...and believe in the same ethereal and unproven Being and at least a similar approach to It...or complete agreement that such a Being cannot exist and all organizations formed to approach It ridiculous and absurd!).

We can put energy into developing our culture positively...I see life as a series of cycles, which if no energy is put INTO the equation devolves through entropy to least-common denominators. We have been there for a long time, generally, while portions of the public have learned to transcend this seemingly hopeless divide.

I've been in churches where race hasn't been an issue. I've been around atheist groups where this has been the case as well. Major universities that I've attended worked very well together without regard to race. At all. So I KNOW there can be successes when this horrible perception/conclusion distortion is put away. When I say to ignore racism, I am NOT saying to ignore those who are still stuck in the old paradigm. I am also not saying to ignore the realities of how each of us got here along our family trees and the subsequent culture we carry from our ancestors.

But I do mean to give those who remain stuck in the divide a bit of grace and love, so they know they have the chance of being accepted back into the functioning whole...if and when they finally discover their previous prejudices to be the empty fallacies that they truly are.



We can create a culture where race doesn't divide...but we can cherish and appreciate everyone's ancestry and heritage. I believe there is a reason mystics and magicians and indigenous wisepeople and healers have been dominated and denied their history.

I believe the indigenous of each continent have special giftings and abilities that the Europeans, especially the British [[and the French, Spanish, and Portuguese before them, and the Romans before them, and so on...) for whatever reason do not possess, likely squelched over time due the indigenous' general indifference to the concept of empire or country. I believe the abominations of the 18th and 19th centuries created a caldron of chaos which has been USED on purpose to keep us all at each others throats.

To this day.


I see the ONLY solution being a generally agreed upon consensus to realize that we ARE one...something like 98% identical underneath this layer of derma-veneer. Recognize that racism exists, surely, but then do everything we can possibly do to insure it never rears its ugly head in our midst ever, ever again.


Sincerely...boy has this gotten my gray matter churning, fueled by the red matter in my chest. You all are the best. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Gannon]

You're acting like an idiot. I've twice explained that your question [[which is broad, and opens up a whole new vista of sub-topics) came from somewhere inside of you and had no connection-- other than, perhaps, one you are insisting on internally feeling-- to the point I was making with my post.
It appears that you are determined to drag me into a discussion that you are having inside of your own head, and that's one sand-box out of which ol' Ravine is going to fucking stay, I'll tell yew hwat.

If you want to bring up broad questions on race-- a subject of which, you may recall, you pretend to barely recognize the meaning-- start your own damn thread. Don't try to inject your far-flung conceptual horseshit into my posts and then have the idiotic audacity to accuse me of "wimping out" because I'm not fucking moronic enough to take your cheesy little flea-bitten bait.

What a bitter and angry and spiteful person you are...you so eagerly choose to be confrontational. LOL You do tend to find the worst way to take a comment and direct the conversation...and you seem to despise that I try to find the best in situations. That has puzzled me for a very long time here, and I'm happy I finally decided to not back down from your verbal bullying.


It is a simple question with a simple answer. Race in no way dictates the behavior anyone chooses to partake. It may influence how some frame a situation, and how they understand or misunderstand others...but what one chooses to do is not demanded and inescapable.


That wasn't so hard, was it? OR is there some argument someone can add to this that helps me see if I'm wrong with this conclusion? [[the race thing, not the Ravine thing...that would be another thread! LOL)



C'est la vie. I always hope to make the best of it.


Cheers, anyways!

[Ravine]

What a bitter and angry and spiteful person you are...you so eagerly choose to be confrontational. LOL You do tend to find the worst way to take a comment and direct the conversation...and you seem to despise that I try to find the best in situations. That has puzzled me for a very long time here, and I'm happy I finally decided to not back down from your verbal bullying.


It is a simple question with a simple answer. Race in no way dictates the behavior anyone chooses to partake. It may influence how some frame a situation, and how they understand or misunderstand others...but what one chooses to do is not demanded and inescapable.


That wasn't so hard, was it? OR is there some argument someone can add to this that helps me see if I'm wrong with this conclusion? [[the race thing, not the Ravine thing...that would be another thread! LOL)



C'est la vie. I always hope to make the best of it.


Cheers, anyways!

Apparently it wasn't so hard, so why didn't you write it in the first place? It was your topic, your thoughts, your question, and it never had a damned thing to do with me or my post. Why didn't you just express your thoughts, without trying to drag me into a discussion which was entirely non-germane to my statement?

Well, I am what I am. Everybody gets to see me as they see me. At least I am not a phony.
Strange, though, that you would accuse me of trying to direct the conversation, seeing as how this whole confrontation arose from you trying to do just that; I wrote a simple, clear statement which did not touch upon, or even imply, anything about any race or anyone's behavior. When I rebuffed the question, due to its absolute irrelevance to my statement and my disinterest in the topic of the question, you played it as me "wimping out;" then, when I take angry exception to that pitifully ridiculous, yet offensive, characterization, oh, now I'm "bitter, angry and spiteful."

That was a classic act of passive-aggressiveness, which isn't so bad; there are lots of passive-aggressives. Most of them, however, are more clever at it, and their sneaky little stuff is less likely to be detected. Yours was terribly transparent, though, so while I would rank you fairly solidly as a fully-realized passive-aggressive, you lack style.

[Vox]

Apparently it wasn\'t so hard, so why didn\'t you write it in the first place? It was your topic, your thoughts, your question, and it never had a damned thing to do with me or my post. Why didn\'t you just express your thoughts, without trying to drag me into a discussion which was entirely non-germane to my statement?

Well, I am what I am. Everybody gets to see me as they see me. At least I am not a phony.
Strange, though, that you would accuse me of trying to direct the conversation, seeing as how this whole confrontation arose from you trying to do just that; I wrote a simple, clear statement which did not touch upon, or even imply, anything about any race or anyone\'s behavior. When I rebuffed the question, due to its absolute irrelevance to my statement and my disinterest in the topic of the question, you played it as me "wimping out;" then, when I take angry exception to that pitifully ridiculous, yet offensive, characterization, oh, now I\'m "bitter, angry and spiteful."

That was a classic act of passive-aggressiveness, which isn\'t so bad; there are lots of passive-aggressives. Most of them, however, are more clever at it, and their sneaky little stuff is less likely to be detected. Yours was terribly transparent, though, so while I would rank you fairly solidly as a fully-realized passive-aggressive, you lack style.

I agree completely.

[Ravine]

Why, thanks for being so gracious as to say so, Vox.

And, I'm sure you see how this works.

[Ravine]

"Stay and fight," indeed. "Wimp out," indeed.

[Gannon]

Discussions which feature openness & honesty but do not sink into malice & hostility are worth plenty.

I was merely reaching for an understanding WHY you think this aspect needs to be brought forth. I agree with English's take on the matter, as I understand it.

As long as the discussion is framed by the overall goal to have the assumptions of racism eliminated, and pigmentation & ancestry left to the wayside on the path to resolution and enlightenment...then perhaps I can acquiesce a bit on including and entertaining discussions of race within any conversation.


I just see how nearly EVERY time it is brought up, especially devoid of each individual's ability to completely voice their history leading to their assumptions [[and ALL others ability to grasp such, if not sympathize or even empathize), it completely annihilates any progress...or even POSSIBILITY of progress...from the task at hand.

Either we consider that race dictates behavior or not. If not, then we look deeper and far beyond it, and make it a mere enhancement to our bigger troubles.

I do not think that race can dictate anyone's behavior, excepting ONLY the reaction from others filled with poor generalized assumptions when THEY see the appearance of others. Those are the ones we call racists.

What a bitter and angry and spiteful person you are...you so eagerly choose to be confrontational.

Cheers, this is easier and hopefully more effective.

[Ravine]

I guess so. "I was wrong" may not meet the characters-minimum.

[Gannon]

I was going to go there, but decided your energy to the negative wasn't worth hearing.


I re-read my words, and still cannot figure why you went as berzerk as you did. I am as guilty.

Cheers, anyways.

[johnsmith]

I know it is merely human nature to feel more comfortable around those who look like the [handsome devil] in your mirror...but if you only surround yourself with like-minded individuals, your mind gets no exercise...and atrophies.

I can agree to both individual statements, but putting them together seems like you're implying that same color/race = like-minded.

[Gannon]

Nice catch, you are right. That is a huge assumption, and because of it...logically improbable.

I am reassessing my conclusions on my reactions to homogeneous groups...and also processing this confrontation with Ravine.

[Augustiner]

Nice catch, you are right. That is a huge assumption, and because of it...logically improbable.

I am reassessing my conclusions on my reactions to homogeneous groups...and also processing this confrontation with Ravine.

I feel like your "reassessment" is focused a bit too firmly inward to be effective. That is, assuming your objective is to try to understand the issues and work through them productively, rather than to absolve yourself of complicity in them. I'm just saying.