Republicans Vow To Fight High Speed Rail; Use Money For Freeways

**wolverine** · November-11-10, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by gdogslim

No I am 100% right on target.
Can anyone name a light rail system that runs a profit? maybe a couple in the world, or isn't massively subsidized.? New York many years ago.
Look at The People Mover. 8 - 10 MILLION a year subsidized by taxpayers!
Outrageous. Should be called the Detroit Tax Soaker.

Amtrak is different obviously, inter city rail, but it is still a government subsidized boondoggle multi BILLION. that has never had a profit overall. "The Pew Charitable Trusts SubsidyScope Project has just released a new report that finds 41 out of Amtrak's 44 routes lose money. The losses ranged from nearly $5 to $462 per passenger, depending upon the line, and averaged $32 per passenger."

As we all know the government does not create jobs, just transfers wealth.
We all know what happened to the Michigan Central Station.

Sure it might be good for students graduating in planning for jobs, union contractors who are big enough and donate to the right politicians and passenger who use trains at the expense of taxpayers who subsidize their transportation costs.
Land use problems, land costs, people choosing to drive cars , people move, it will never make money in michigan.
Instead maybe have electric or hybrid buses that are FLEXIBLE.

So what if a rail system doesn't profit. It would be a nice side benefit if it did. I pay my taxes, so therefore I'm paying for the system I ride. I also pay taxes for the sidewalks I walk. You pay taxes for your road, so quit concerning yourself with worrying about our train.

**detroitbob** · November-11-10, 11:29 PM

Turn the interstates into Toll Roads...suggest that to the new batch of 'fiscally responsible' legislators/senators/governors on the State and Federal levels and see where that goes. A source of revenue! But let's not use the revenue stream to fix the roads and bridges. Opps. earmarks are bad...

**HazenPingree** · November-11-10, 11:44 PM

Because freeways have served us so well. Shoot me.

**detroitbob** · November-12-10, 01:59 AM

If I leave my abode, travel to Metro, go through airport security, arrive at the gate minimum 30 minutes before departure, board the aircraft, fly to Chicago, take the el downtown, I've got almost 4 hours invested. Same for the fly home. If rail could get me there at 4 hours or under, from i.e. Dearborn to Union Station in downtown Chicago. I'd rather go that route. It is about making the service accessible and schedule friendly for the business and casual traveler. [[full disclosure--- I can fly for free or at tax cost due to employment in the travel industry) AND research has confirmed that the Detroit Chicago route would only increase in volume. Let's face it, gas prices aren't going to stay low. Regular no lead in Chicago two weeks ago was running 3.39 USD per gallon. That week I paid 2.62 USD at Costco in metro Detroit. Last night it was 2.92 USD, also at Costco. My gas prices round trip would come close to the cost of Amtrak and shuttle or limo to downtown Chicago. As oil prices rise, so will air fares with the rise of jet fuel. I understand Amtrak diesel electric is a relative bargain fuel wise...

**Magnatomicflux** · November-12-10, 03:17 AM

A little off topic sorry, but kind of related about the cost of things.........Since a typical locomotive can move can move a ton 500 miles on a gallon of fuel, why does it cost so damn much to move a couple hundred people? For example, if the Wife and I want to take a VIA train from Toronto to Vancouver on the 13th and come back on the 19th, economy supersaver fare....it's going to cost me $2,137 or $1,068.98 per person!!!!!! That's just 2 seats and some food! Amtrak on the other hand, same deal, Detroit to Chicago then off to Seattle....$636.50 or $318.25 per person. Still pretty damn expensive considering how much they can move on so little fuel.
What's the difference between the two? Is it because most of Canada's population is here in Southern Ontario and since ridership is low already they have to jack up the price so extremly? VS The same low ridership in the US, but a much higher population spead out all over?

Is VIA's transcontinental route nothing more than a tourist line? Would it benifit or hurt a railline to slash the prices to intice people to ride the train again?

**professorscott** · November-12-10, 09:49 AM

When you pay for a ride on Amtrak or Greyhound or Delta or DDOT, you are not just paying for the fuel. You are also paying for the driver or TO's salary and the salary of the people who maintain the vehicles [[and in Amtrak's case some of the track) and work at the stations, purchase and maintenance of vehicles, printing of the fare tickets, and a thousand other things most of which you never directly experience.

And even with the fares being what they are, all of these transportation providers require some form of government subsidy in order to be able to operate at all.

Someone mentioned toll roads - GREAT idea, keeps a big chunk of the overall cost of road maintenance out of the general-fund budget in the states that have them. I will be amazed if Michigan ever goes down that path. For one thing, you can't take a free Interstate highway and convert it to a toll road; Federal regulations don't allow it. For another thing, our government is so freeway-drunk that it would never occur to Lansing to do anything with highways except to keep building and expanding them, never mind they can't properly take care of what they've already built.

**canuck** · November-12-10, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux

A little off topic sorry, but kind of related about the cost of things.........Since a typical locomotive can move can move a ton 500 miles on a gallon of fuel, why does it cost so damn much to move a couple hundred people? For example, if the Wife and I want to take a VIA train from Toronto to Vancouver on the 13th and come back on the 19th, economy supersaver fare....it's going to cost me $2,137 or $1,068.98 per person!!!!!! That's just 2 seats and some food! Amtrak on the other hand, same deal, Detroit to Chicago then off to Seattle....$636.50 or $318.25 per person. Still pretty damn expensive considering how much they can move on so little fuel.
What's the difference between the two? Is it because most of Canada's population is here in Southern Ontario and since ridership is low already they have to jack up the price so extremly? VS The same low ridership in the US, but a much higher population spead out all over?

Is VIA's transcontinental route nothing more than a tourist line? Would it benifit or hurt a railline to slash the prices to intice people to ride the train again?

I found the supersaver fare to be 442$ an adult, return with VIARail fro TO to Vancouver. Not a very comfortable trip without a sleeper but it beats driving thru the prairies etc... in the dead of winter...

**iheartthed** · November-12-10, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

When you pay for a ride on Amtrak or Greyhound or Delta or DDOT, you are not just paying for the fuel. You are also paying for the driver or TO's salary and the salary of the people who maintain the vehicles [[and in Amtrak's case some of the track) and work at the stations, purchase and maintenance of vehicles, printing of the fare tickets, and a thousand other things most of which you never directly experience.

And even with the fares being what they are, all of these transportation providers require some form of government subsidy in order to be able to operate at all.

Someone mentioned toll roads - GREAT idea, keeps a big chunk of the overall cost of road maintenance out of the general-fund budget in the states that have them. I will be amazed if Michigan ever goes down that path. For one thing, you can't take a free Interstate highway and convert it to a toll road; Federal regulations don't allow it. For another thing, our government is so freeway-drunk that it would never occur to Lansing to do anything with highways except to keep building and expanding them, never mind they can't properly take care of what they've already built.

Is that still true about not being allowed to collect tolls? I-376 in eastern Pennsylvania is less than 20 years old and it is tolled. Pennsylvania is also debating on tolling I-80 between Ohio and New Jersey.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-12-10, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Someone mentioned toll roads - GREAT idea, keeps a big chunk of the overall cost of road maintenance out of the general-fund budget in the states that have them. I will be amazed if Michigan ever goes down that path. For one thing, you can't take a free Interstate highway and convert it to a toll road; Federal regulations don't allow it. For another thing, our government is so freeway-drunk that it would never occur to Lansing to do anything with highways except to keep building and expanding them, never mind they can't properly take care of what they've already built.

I find that hard to believe. Federal Funds were used on the Blue Water Bride and thats a tolled road. Federal Funds were used on I-80/90 in Ohio/Indiana and thats a tolled road. In fact in Indiana, the state don't even own it any more!

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...e_mainbar.html

**Funaho** · November-12-10, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Is that still true about not being allowed to collect tolls? I-376 in eastern Pennsylvania is less than 20 years old and it is tolled. Pennsylvania is also debating on tolling I-80 between Ohio and New Jersey.

Apparently the rules have been relaxed somewhat. From Wikipedia:

"The Federal Highway Administration has allowed some states to collect tolls on Interstate highways, while a recent extension of Interstate 376 included a section of Pennsylvania Route 60 that was tolled by the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission before receiving Interstate designation. Most toll roads are grandfathered from Interstate Highway standards, although some [[like the tolled section of I-376, which was built in the early 1990s) must conform to Interstate standards, as they have been built more recently. A new addition of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices in 2009 requires a black-on-yellow "Toll" sign to be placed above the Interstate trailblazer on Interstate highways that collect tolls."

**Hermod** · November-12-10, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux

A little off topic sorry, but kind of related about the cost of things.........Since a typical locomotive can move can move a ton 500 miles on a gallon of fuel, why does it cost so damn much to move a couple hundred people? For example, if the Wife and I want to take a VIA train from Toronto to Vancouver on the 13th and come back on the 19th, economy supersaver fare....it's going to cost me $2,137 or $1,068.98 per person!!!!!! That's just 2 seats and some food! Amtrak on the other hand, same deal, Detroit to Chicago then off to Seattle....$636.50 or $318.25 per person. Still pretty damn expensive considering how much they can move on so little fuel.
What's the difference between the two? Is it because most of Canada's population is here in Southern Ontario and since ridership is low already they have to jack up the price so extremly? VS The same low ridership in the US, but a much higher population spead out all over?

Is VIA's transcontinental route nothing more than a tourist line? Would it benifit or hurt a railline to slash the prices to intice people to ride the train again?

Let me give you an example. Here in Deerfield Beach, FL we have an AMTRAK station which is also an historic site. I am a member [[actually current president) of the Deerfield Beach Railroad Museum which shares the station with AMTRAK.

This station employs four ticket agents and two baggage handlers to service two trains a day in each direction. Anywhere from five to ten passengers board each train going north and about the same number get off each train going south. Now repeat this on every single station from Miami to New York.

On board each train are a baggage handler in the baggage car , two guys in the locomotive, three pullman porters, several guys in the dining car, a guy in the club car, two coach porters, and a conductor. At each end of the line, you have train cleaners, train washers [[exterior), and repairmen. All of these folks need to be paid.
The TriRail commuter line also uses the station [[though their ticketing is from automated kiosks outside). They have many trains running every day. Last Saturday, I was chatting with a guy who headed up the Her... operation of Tri-Rail from 1993 to 2007 [[they were the TriRail operations contractor before Veolia took it over). I was twitting him about how much TriRail loses compared to what they take in from fares. He said that wasn't even close because they cooked the books to minimize losses. All of their track maintenance, signaling, and dispatching came gratis from CSX and wasn't included in TriRail costs.

**old guy** · November-12-10, 03:31 PM

Sunday, July 16, 2006
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON

Roads and bridges built by U.S. taxpayers are starting to be sold off, and so far, foreign-owned companies are doing the buying.

On a single day in June, an Australian-Spanish partnership paid $3.8 billion to lease the Indiana Toll Road. An Australian company bought a 99-year lease on Virginia’s Pocahontas Parkway, and Texas officials decided to let a Spanish-American partnership build and run a toll road from Austin to Seguin for 50 years.

Few people know that the tolls from the U.S. side of the tunnel between Detroit and Windsor, Canada, go to a subsidiary of an Australian company - which also owns a bridge in Alabama ...

MI - In January 2001, MIG’s North American Infrastructure Group bought out Detroit & Canada Tunnel Corp.’s [[DCTC) shares of the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel for $53.5 million. MIG now maintains and operates the tunnel and collects toll revenue.

Budget Deficits lead to Private-Public Partnerships [[PPP)
Our highway system-ironically called “freeways”-is being “privatized” at an quickening pace because of cash and budget shortfalls at both the federal and state levels. Privatization is a way for politicians to avoid telling the public we are “broke”, or in debt and cannot maintain our roads without INCREASED TAXES. Instead, in exchange for a huge [[often one time) cash receipt, the governments are turning over our precious “freeways” to [[mostly) foreign for-profit investors, who are TAXING us by charging tolls for what is still being paid for with TAX REVENUES.

Tolls create Double Taxation
In other words, we are going to pay twice for the same roads. We will continue to pay gasoline taxes, federal and state income taxes-and in addition-we will pay NEW USER FEES and TOLLS. We may lose precious control of our highway systems at a time that we need them the most.

I guess MIG is Macquarie Investment Group, located in Sydney Australia. It sounds like states are getting kickbacks on the leases and we're paying double. How bad can train subsidizing be?

**Detroitnerd** · November-12-10, 03:50 PM

Grrrrrr, don't get me started on privatization ...

**wolverine** · November-12-10, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by detroitbob

If I leave my abode, travel to Metro, go through airport security, arrive at the gate minimum 30 minutes before departure, board the aircraft, fly to Chicago, take the el downtown, I've got almost 4 hours invested. Same for the fly home. If rail could get me there at 4 hours or under, from i.e. Dearborn to Union Station in downtown Chicago. I'd rather go that route. It is about making the service accessible and schedule friendly for the business and casual traveler. [[full disclosure--- I can fly for free or at tax cost due to employment in the travel industry) AND research has confirmed that the Detroit Chicago route would only increase in volume. Let's face it, gas prices aren't going to stay low. Regular no lead in Chicago two weeks ago was running 3.39 USD per gallon. That week I paid 2.62 USD at Costco in metro Detroit. Last night it was 2.92 USD, also at Costco. My gas prices round trip would come close to the cost of Amtrak and shuttle or limo to downtown Chicago. As oil prices rise, so will air fares with the rise of jet fuel. I understand Amtrak diesel electric is a relative bargain fuel wise...

Remember you also have to pay for parking too once you get to Chicago or any major city. That is unless you park for free on the street....

The costs really pile up when you consider all things.

------------------

As for tollways, I'm honestly in favor of them. Not because they are privately owned, but because they regulate driver habits and sprawl patterns. Notice how tollways have fewer exits? Even the sprawlyburbs that exist on them have more concentrated office and retail centers [[and even healthy downtowns) that most freeway suburbs lack. The mere presence of tollways will only further justify alternatives and make rail travel more appealing. to some commuters. There's people in my office that say "I take Metra rail because I don't feel like paying the tolls, and I can relax on my way to work."

**detroitbob** · November-12-10, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Grrrrrr, don't get me started on privatization ...

Well, you are going to grrrr'ing like a feral cat when our new Guv starts his round of privitation...

**jiminnm** · November-13-10, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Not so sure about that. It seems to me that among the cities that have been most proactive about setting up mass transit systems, commuter rail and such have been overwhelmingly Republican, especially in the Southwest. Salt Lake City, not exactly a bastion of left-wingism, has a very successful light rail system with no bickering. Albuquerque and Santa Fe have the Rail Runner commuter system, also very popular. I'm surprised Ohio Republicans can't follow that example and lead on transit in a similar way.

Your praise for our RailRunner is misplaced, as it's a financial failure and not all that popular. It costs about $22 million/year to operate. Of that, $3 million comes from fares and the remaining $19 million from the state [[i.e., taxes). It is a drag on the state budget facing a $450-500 million deficit. I fully expect fares to be hiked dramatically and services substantially cut in the nest year. There is also a chance, small at this point but growing, that the service could be scrapped entirely and the train sold.

**tallboy66** · November-13-10, 01:12 PM

It was only supposed to be an Amtrak line and if it's like the whole Detroit light rail that they've been trying to get built since the 70's

never gonna happen.

Cleveland, Cincinnati, Detroit have been losing population for years, losing seats in Washington, but if they think building another lane for less people to drive on and then make it a TOLL ROAD

lol!

Chicago's suburbs voted in favor of spending money on upgrading the commuter rail instead of money on freeways, now they did just complete a huge freeway in the west 'burbs I-355 but they also have redeveloped the central city, Ohio, Detroit just keep moving people from one spot to the next and call it growth.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-13-10, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by jiminnm

Your praise for our RailRunner is misplaced, as it's a financial failure and not all that popular. It costs about $22 million/year to operate. Of that, $3 million comes from fares and the remaining $19 million from the state [[i.e., taxes). It is a drag on the state budget facing a $450-500 million deficit. I fully expect fares to be hiked dramatically and services substantially cut in the nest year. There is also a chance, small at this point but growing, that the service could be scrapped entirely and the train sold.

Thanks for sharing. Until your post, I never realized that 0.15% of a budget could be considered "a drag".

Assuming your $19 million subsidy figure is correct, that's 2% of the entire New Mexico transportation budget of $900 million. Not a bad deal, considering that carrying 4500 passengers a day eliminates the need for an additional freeway lane during rush hour.

**canuck** · November-14-10, 06:03 PM

I think that the fact the US is still the number one producer of oil makes it less likely to use caution than certain countries in Europe where these resources are either non existent or nearly depleted. In my neck of the woods electricity is cheap because abundant, and we waste like nobody's business.
The need for oil is so intense that companies dont think twice of spending one barrel of oil in energy to get 2 barrels out of the Alberta tar sands as long as the price is right. But as long as they can supply the demand, they will keep fuel for consumers available at a cheap price. It is too important a part of the economy not only as a vital element in transportation and energy, but as an engine for profit in the Houstons and New Yorks and Londons of the world.

There will be a crunch sometime in the future, those best equipped to weather it, will be better off because they will have enacted measures to offset the need for these resources.

**Jimaz** · November-17-10, 08:16 PM

Obama Replaces Costly High-Speed Rail Plan With High-Speed Bus Plan

**R8RBOB** · November-17-10, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Obama Replaces Costly High-Speed Rail Plan With High-Speed Bus Plan

Love it.....

**Jimaz** · November-17-10, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Love it.....

Makes it that much more worthwhile. Sincerely.

**R8RBOB** · November-17-10, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

Makes it that much more worthwhile. Sincerely.

Our "friend" L. Brooks Patterson would endorse this plan wholeheartedly. And lincoln8740 too since his side is going to control the state.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-17-10, 09:48 PM

I want to laugh at this, but it's only a matter of time before John Boehner introduces such a plan on the floor of the House.

**mikefmich** · December-10-10, 09:54 AM

Well Kasich got his wish. I didn't think possible I could dislike a governor as much as him before he even takes office. Total .......... If he keeps it up, it's possible my fondness for him could even surpass my fondness for Engler....which would be a tall order.
http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live...litics&sid=101