DFD busier than usual on Angels Night?

[Danny]

It's HORRIBLE! OVER 150 arson fires in 3 days. More than last year. The volunteers can do better than that! Wet those vacant and abandon buildings, watch your neighborhoods, patrol every last community, keep the juvenile deliquents out. Then you ghettohood will be arson free.

[DetroitPlanner]

Okay, so how many people here actually volunteered to make things better?

It is no pancea, but anyone who has lived here know that eyes and ears make all the difference. The administrations may use it as a PR tool but we are really looking out for our neighborhoods.

So next year quit your bitching and grab a flashlight.

All was quiet on the eastern front. We encountered children and people raking their leaves. It was the early shift, mind you, but serenity reigns in pockets of Detroit.

I agree the only way things are going to get better is if we put in some extra time once or twice a month and be the eyes and ears for the police. I have my police station's telephone number on my cell phone, I always report suspicious activity much to the chagrin of the Warren Avenue hookers.

I still think more needs to be done at City Hall to improve things, but lets just face it, past adminstrations have dug a huge hole. The City itself is actually in better financial shape than many of its suburban areas these days because its citizens pay more and demand less. Maybe we need to demand more for our money, but with such a huge number of homes in foreclosure, where is it going to come from?

I volunteered and drove around patrolling my home was lit up like a Christmas Tree all three nights. Thankfully I did not see much. The one surprise was Hermann Gardens. I only live three blocks from this, but my commuting patterns don't often take me by it. Therefore, this was my first ventrure into the place in probably 20 years. I was shocked to see how nice this development really is. The homes are varied in appearance and clustered around central play areas. People were on the porches while the kids were playing in the central court areas.

It reminded me of a nicer version of Cherry Hill Village.

[Buy American]

Everyone blames City Hall for Devil's Night....when does the blame go directly to those who have created and perpetuated this infamous night? When do the parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, or relatives of these thugs and arsonists realize what's going on and do their best to keep these criminals in the house, off the streets, and out of trouble? There is a curfew. Where do these people think these people are anyway? They are not in the house so that must mean they are outside up to no good. No resident in Detroit is willing to take the blame or be responsible for themselves or others. Over 12,000 volunteers watching over Detroit and there are still fires. What a crying shame for Detroit.....I still can't get over the fact that it needs volunteers to be the eyes and ears to prevent fires. Detroit needs to clamp down on criminals in a big way...zero tolerance if it hasn't already been implemented. But, as usual, the victims are the losers and the criminals, thugs and arsonists win again!

[Gannon]

Buy American,

You really have NO clue of the dynamics behind this phenomenon. As with your idiotic one-trick pony understanding of wise automobile purchasing, you have a rather myopic view of this one, too.


A good portion of the criminals are usually law-abiding individuals who have been trying to get abandoned houses torn down by CITY HALL for years and years...since these structures are often used by those who don't have the same value of life and property as most.

They justify becoming arsonists for the night in order to effect the destruction of something that would be obviously an anomaly the rest of the year. They avoid being targets of investigation, because of the cover of Devil's Night.


"Devil's Night" has been around since I was a young'un...and I'm 46 now. Back in the day in the old neighborhood, it was mostly toilet papering and egging...but it would escalate when personal vendettas and worse exacerbated the situation.

I'll never forget an incident in Dearborn when I was in my mid-teens....we were stopped by a few cops and roughly questioned. One asked me what I had in my bulging pocket, and I honestly said Tootsie Pops. He then struck my leg with his night-stick to break the eggs HE thought I really had, and was shocked to learn that I was telling the truth.

We had been on our own volunteer patrol keeping kids from causing destruction. Eggs can do some serious damage if left to bake onto a car's finish in the sun...and all too often the targets were older people, due their harsh reactions the rest of the year to infractions as little as walking on their lawns...but I realized even then they were unfairly attacked, and usually not able to clean everything up the next day. So I guess we were pioneers in the art of Devil's Night patrolling.


Cheers

[Gannon]

The reports I heard said there were a few more fires than last year -- but than ten -- for around 80 total for the 24 hour period. That is less than 10% from the peak of the Devil's Nights years and not much more than a normal day.

Congratulations, thank you and [hugs] to all our angels! Bless you and our fire fighters and public safety personnel.

The good guys win again.

Perhaps.


You are forgetting the reported change in statistic gathering and the altered definition of fire that the department and administration adopted over the duration of this phenomenon.

One would have to parse the old records and reports to weed out a proper apples/apples comparison.



I say the fact that there is an increase AT ALL, with a similar force of volunteers and PR and attention from authorities, means the truly good guys did NOT win. At least not yet.


Cheers

[Meddle]

There is a curfew. Where do these people think these people are anyway? They are not in the house so that must mean they are outside up to no good.

Remember the old WJBK PSA? "It's 10PM. Do you know where your kids are?"

Nowadays, if a parent tries to enforce a curfew, Junior just pulls out a gun and tells them to STFU.

[Buy American]

Buy American,

You really have NO clue of the dynamics behind this phenomenon. As with your idiotic one-trick pony understanding of wise automobile purchasing, you have a rather myopic view of this one, too.


A good portion of the criminals are usually law-abiding individuals who have been trying to get abandoned houses torn down by CITY HALL for years and years...since these structures are often used by those who don't have the same value of life and property as most.

They justify becoming arsonists for the night in order to effect the destruction of something that would be obviously an anomaly the rest of the year. They avoid being targets of investigation, because of the cover of Devil's Night.


"Devil's Night" has been around since I was a young'un...and I'm 46 now. Back in the day in the old neighborhood, it was mostly toilet papering and egging...but it would escalate when personal vendettas and worse exacerbated the situation.

I'll never forget an incident in Dearborn when I was in my mid-teens....we were stopped by a few cops and roughly questioned. One asked me what I had in my bulging pocket, and I honestly said Tootsie Pops. He then struck my leg with his night-stick to break the eggs HE thought I really had, and was shocked to learn that I was telling the truth.

We had been on our own volunteer patrol keeping kids from causing destruction. Eggs can do some serious damage if left to bake onto a car's finish in the sun...and all too often the targets were older people, due their harsh reactions the rest of the year to infractions as little as walking on their lawns...but I realized even then they were unfairly attacked, and usually not able to clean everything up the next day. So I guess we were pioneers in the art of Devil's Night patrolling.


Cheers

Gannon, your psycho babble regarding my understanding of the dynamics behind this phenomenon is, of course, off the mark. Since you've formed your opinion of me anyway, your comments don't surprise me at all. I have views about purchasing an American automobile and not purchasing a foreign one that you obviously disagree with and that's fine with me. One can just look around in any Michigan neighborhood and see where their family, friends, and neighbors have been hit hard by the closures of many American automobile companies and the trickle down effect it has had on other businesses in the area and judge for themselves whether it would have been wiser to support the American automobile rather than not support it. The outcome is obvious but you probably can't see it because of your distorted view of how things should be.

As far as Devil's night is concerned, I'm a bit older than you and I remember Devils Night like you....toilet papering, eggs, peanut butter on doorknobs....irritating pranks but certainly not life threatening.

"A good portion of the criminals are usually law-abiding individuals who have been trying to get abandoned houses torn down by CITY HALL for years and years...since these structures are often used by those who don't have the same value of life and property as most."...is a very lame excuse and if I were a law-abiding citizen of Detroit I'd definitely take offense at that statement. You are justifying arson. Believe me, I lived in Detroit for 50 years and never once thought of setting a home on fire because it was empty or because City Hall wouldn't do anything about it.

I see a pattern here that repeats and repeats itself ad nauseam...it's always someone elses' fault.

....and Cheers to you.

[Gannon]

Once again, you put more into my plain words than I ever intended.


I never, EVER justified the practice of burning down the properties which CITY HALL refuses to deal with. They are the ones ignoring citizen's most basic needs, and cause some to choose this behavior. I was merely explaining a distinct thing which you were either ignoring, or simply didn't know and understand yet.


You can choose to take offense at anything you hear...that is one of the most ridiculous wastes of energy ever, perhaps only exceeded by anxiety, fear, hatred, and worry.


I am merely placing the BULK of the blame on CITY HALL, that which you oddly chose to defend. THAT is the huge lack of understanding I was hoping to illuminate for you. It IS City Hall and the Police leadership's fault that things have gotten out of hand.

Is it worse without citizen participation? Of course!

If more citizens would step out and be eyes and ears ALWAYS, EVERYDAY, and had NO resistance to 'snitching'...AND THE COPS WERE PLENTIFUL ENOUGH AND ABLE TO RESPOND [[without over-stressed and over-worked 911 operators mucking things up)...then, I'd bet, we would see an immediate turn-around in this negative behavior.


But with expectations so low, and no real feedback loop of penalties for minor bad behavior which leads to worse, I don't see that happening soon.


Sincerely,
John

P.S.: Sorry to bring past discussions into this one, that was wrong on my part. I loathe it whenever someone does it to me. Plus, it is moot anyways, since the US car companies finally get it. Mostly. Except for that whole automatic transmission assumption...

[Buy American]

P.S.: Sorry to bring past discussions into this one, that was wrong on my part. I loathe it whenever someone does it to me. Plus, it is moot anyways, since the US car companies finally get it. Mostly. Except for that whole automatic transmission assumption...

Thanks for that.

[SWMAP]

Here is the truee story of "Angel's Night" - not to minimize all the volunteering. It is the story of a once-viable little commercial corner in SW detroit: corner of Junction & Howard. Two buildings once marked corners here. One, on the north, was once a bakery, but in latter years it housed a used appliance store. Very shabby. On the south was a pretty substantail turn-of-the century brick building that housed a laundromat for 30 years.Three years ago it was sold to one Maria Montes, according to Wayne county tax records. Montes never paid a lick of taxes on it and now owes many thousands. Not likely to pay since she never found a business to rent it. The old appliance shop was vacated and that building was torched more than a year ago. All the mess still litters the property. See attached photo.

But the laundromat held steady; just soem grafitti. But on Thursday morning as I passed it I saw that the side door had been beaten in and every window in the place broken out. Next, of course, comes the torch. I called the Angel's Night hotline and the lady there told me nothing they can do. No process in that camp for securing a building. She said call 311 and report it open to trespass. So called there and, long story shortened, it will be six months before ownership can be challenged and the city enter the building to secure it.

Really, we are no longer talking about "vandalism" in the city. Vandalism is too mild a word. What we are experiencing is frightening like an out of control orgy of destruction. Angel's Night efforts can't even begin to make a difference.

[DetroitPole]

Attitudes like this really piss me off.

This may come as a shock to you but, in most cities across the United States, it isn't necessary for volunteers to do anything in order to prevent a few hundred arson fires from breaking out.

And - by the way - those other cities have a tax burden that is half of Detroit's.

At what point to we stop blaming the victims and start talking about the basic competency of the folks in city hall.

Sorry, I understand what you are saying.

Unfortunately we do have to volunteer to prevent total destruction. I think DPD and DFD do a fine job most of the time, the problem is with the City-County Building and of course the large amount of no-goodniks we have in this city.

I think volunteering is an essential part of citizenship in a community. Even if I lived in Grosse Pointe I would volunteer in the neighborhood in some way. In Detroit we have to do it for survival though.

Mainly my point was directed at the posters who chortle at and decry the chaos of Devil's Night without doing anything to help. If they're really that outraged, they should volunteer to make things better or STFU.

[Magnatomicflux]

Except for that whole automatic transmission assumption...

You mean how you just can't find a clutch in a car anymore? That's driving me up a frickin' wall!

er.....sorry lol.

Windsor had A garage fire.....end of report.

I've heard devils night is more or less just a Windsor-Detroit thing.
Any truth to that?

[claireianthelibrarian]

SWMAP, if you want help boarding up that building, I'd be glad to join you. I don't have a truck and I'm not that strong, BUT I could borrow a drill and pitch in nonetheless. I know it should be on the owner or the city to do it, but around here it isn't.

"I've heard devils night is more or less just a Windsor-Detroit thing.
Any truth to that?"

I moved between St. Louis and Chicago before coming here, and never encountered the massive Halloween arson spree or even the name Devil's Night before stumbling across Ze'ev Chafets's book at a library where I was working. You better believe I was out patrolling Brightmoor on Saturday night, though. Didn't directly stop anyone, but I've done arson-related neighborhood patrols before, and I do think having people out there watching at least skims off a certain percentage of opportunists.

[Jimaz]

... I've heard devils night is more or less just a Windsor-Detroit thing.
Any truth to that?

Good question. I've never heard it called that beyond the area. I'd heard of soaping windows and other pranks elsewhere, but never "Devil's Night."

[Philbo]

They have also had their problems with devils night in Flint and Saginaw.

[SWMAP]

Clairianthelibrarian: many thanks for offering to help secure that building in SW Detroit - but there is nothing we can do to make it secure from people determined to enter. There is nothing we can afford to put on the entryway that can't be pried off. It needs its owner's care.

[canuck]

Gannon, your psycho babble regarding my understanding of the dynamics behind this phenomenon is, of course, off the mark. Since you've formed your opinion of me anyway, your comments don't surprise me at all. I have views about purchasing an American automobile and not purchasing a foreign one that you obviously disagree with and that's fine with me. One can just look around in any Michigan neighborhood and see where their family, friends, and neighbors have been hit hard by the closures of many American automobile companies and the trickle down effect it has had on other businesses in the area and judge for themselves whether it would have been wiser to support the American automobile rather than not support it. The outcome is obvious but you probably can't see it because of your distorted view of how things should be.

As far as Devil's night is concerned, I'm a bit older than you and I remember Devils Night like you....toilet papering, eggs, peanut butter on doorknobs....irritating pranks but certainly not life threatening.

"A good portion of the criminals are usually law-abiding individuals who have been trying to get abandoned houses torn down by CITY HALL for years and years...since these structures are often used by those who don't have the same value of life and property as most."...is a very lame excuse and if I were a law-abiding citizen of Detroit I'd definitely take offense at that statement. You are justifying arson. Believe me, I lived in Detroit for 50 years and never once thought of setting a home on fire because it was empty or because City Hall wouldn't do anything about it.

I see a pattern here that repeats and repeats itself ad nauseam...it's always someone elses' fault.

....and Cheers to you.

So supporting american automotive industry is the solution to Detroit's ills bar none?

[Al Publican]

Along with some insurance jobs, some of which have been arson numbers on cars brought in Detroit from the suburbs. I know a lawyer that represented a suburbanite that set his car on fire in Detroit claiming it was stolen.

On another note, a quote of Mao Zedong comes to mind that could be hell in Detroit: "A single spark can start a prairie fire." ouch

[RYANGUARD]

On WWJ radio yesterday it said that there were 169 fires reported in the City of Detroit over the 3 day period.It also said that 9 of the fires were reported as arson.Then the other 160 fires were due to what, spontaneous combustion?

[Buy American]

So supporting american automotive industry is the solution to Detroit's ills bar none?

It would have made a huge difference, without exception.

[Fnemecek]

Sorry, I understand what you are saying.

Unfortunately we do have to volunteer to prevent total destruction. I think DPD and DFD do a fine job most of the time, the problem is with the City-County Building and of course the large amount of no-goodniks we have in this city.

I think volunteering is an essential part of citizenship in a community. Even if I lived in Grosse Pointe I would volunteer in the neighborhood in some way. In Detroit we have to do it for survival though.

Mainly my point was directed at the posters who chortle at and decry the chaos of Devil's Night without doing anything to help. If they're really that outraged, they should volunteer to make things better or STFU.

I've volunteer on Devil's Night for several years - each time met with its own issues. Quite frankly, I have serious doubts as to whether or not it actually does do any good.

It's like being in a boat that is sinking. You can bail out water as fast as you want. Sooner or later, though, - if you really want to survive - you have to ask yourself an important question. How this water is getting into the boat in the first place?

In the case of a sinking boat, if you don't plug the leaks in time, all of the bailing in the world won't do much good.

In the case of Detroit, citizen can serve as the eyes and ears of the police department. We can report what we see, hear, and know. I have had neighbors call in a report as soon as the arsonist breaks into a vacant house with a can of gasoline in hand.

But no one shows up to make an arrest.

When the arsonist flees that vacant house that is now on fire, neighbors flag down a passing police officer to tell them what they saw and that they know exactly who it was that set the blaze. The officer then stands there in front of a burning building; in front of an eyewitness who is willing to testify and say that there isn't anything that he can do.

I have to ask: in situations like that, what exactly is the benefit of patrolling?

There was another case a few years where some volunteers were on a patrol. A group of armed gunmen [[affiliated with one of the local drug gangs, by the way the way they were dressed) surrounds their car and tells them to get of the neighborhood. They later reported the matter to police, but nothing ever happens.

In situations like that, what exactly is the benefit of patrolling?

I've had other instances where a volunteer had their car pelted with rocks, eggs, or whatever. They call it in, but nothing happens.

In situations like that, what exactly is the benefit of patrolling?

For those who do continue to patrol, how long will we keep bailing out the boat before we decide to start plugging a few leaks?

[Gannon]

Frank,

It seems that Chief Godbee had his resources throwing parties for the children at the precincts...but it doesn't explain the lack of response for the rest of the weekend.


You shine a great deal of light onto the situation here.


As I said before, this is a situation exacerbated by a distinct lack of leadership in City Hall and within the Police Department. If I were a fire-fighter, I'd be royally pissed that their negligence continues to put the entire Fire Department at risk.



Your analogy holds water. [[sorry, couldn't resist!)


Cheers, anyways. This will all be part of the dialogue for the upcoming year. Time to start an Angel's YEAR initiative. Start snitching on all the bullshit that allows these to continue.

[Fnemecek]

My analogy holds water?

Gannon: there's a part of me that wants to slap you for that comment and another part of me that wants to buy you a beer. We'll see which part eventually wins.

[Gannon]

Why does it have to be either/or?!

Is the whole WORLD stuck in dichotomies?



IF I get to choose the beer and the bar, you can slap me for each one you buy.

[Fnemecek]

LMAO! Challenge accepted.

I'll shoot you a note on Facebook.