why metro detroit will never achieve regional cooperation

[Hermod]

Without the massively overbuilt road network and extension of water and sewer service, Oakland and Macomb Counties simply do not exist as they do today. Somebody paid for all that infrastructure, and it sure as shit wasn't the handful of farmers who lived in those counties at the time.

1.Detroit wanted to sell the counties water. If Detroit had said "no" the counties could have just dipped into Lake St Clair. Then the water plant in Detroit would have been overbuilt and would be operating at less than efficient capacity as the population dropped. It isn't like Detroit is sitting on the only fresh water supply in the area.

The infrastructure [[roads and schools) were built as the population increases demanded. When a road reaches a certain traffic count, the state or county paves it, widens it, or whatever is required. Schools are built as school populations require. They didn't build all the infrastructure out there and then say "OK, folks, come and get it!"

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[ghettopalmetto]

The infrastructure [[roads and schools) were built as the population increases demanded. When a road reaches a certain traffic count, the state or county paves it, widens it, or whatever is required. Schools are built as school populations require. They didn't build all the infrastructure out there and then say "OK, folks, come and get it!"

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And, as I'm sure you've noticed, the roads and schools within the City of Detroit were allowed to rot, simply because there is only so much money go around.

[Bearinabox]

I worked for the city of Troy Engineering Department in 1959 before it became built up. The city had just incorporated and there were a few subdivisions springing up especially out along Adams road. Most of the city was a rather dreary expanse of truck farms and sod farms. You weren't going to find any tinkly little brooks running through beautiful groves of shade trees. Most of the farm houses had seen better days and the few houses that were not farm houses were cheap clapboard homes with oil barrels in back for the furnace. The corners of the section line roads might have a gas station or a small grocery [[or a combination of the two). The "metro area" was beautiful downtown Big Beaver [[Rochester Rd just north of Big Beaver/16Mile) with a small shopping center of three stores one of which was a Rexall Drugs. You had to go quite a few miles north to the Clinton River to see anything of "Mother Nature".

Yeah, I can see that. Troy was probably just as shit-ugly and bleak 50 years ago as it is now. Farmington Hills, West Bloomfield/Orchard Lake, and Commerce Township, on the other hand...

[jt1]

Have you not read any of this thread--the hipster doofus quotient around here hates the suburbs



To quote the late great Greg Giraldo" yeah Detroit is great, you actually name your streets by how many miles away you are from the black people!"



sorry--streetlights are on, cops come when called, schools are good and I don't have to worry about my kid when she plays outside--unsustainable is working fine for me.




really? LBP had nothing to do with it? Really? Even the most ardent "brooks is the white devil" crowd around here gives him a little credit



And it shouldn't be the responsibility of suburbanites to prop up Detroit with their hard earned cash. I have no problem with a thriving Detroit, just don't make us pay for it.

Whenever we [[the evil suburbanites) hear "we need regional cooperation" all we hear is "open up you wallets and shut your mouth suburbs"

Interesting that none of your responses addressed any of the quotes that you responded to.

[Russix]

http://www.oakgov.com/exec/brooks/sprawl.html

Actually this is pretty good for Detroit. I couldn't imagine us having a chance at revitalization if Oakland County suddenly became the center of sustainable urban living.

[fryar]

Hah. And greed is good. For clarification, that's a response to LBP's piece, not anyone's comments on this threat.

Anyway, I agree that that piece does not bode well for regionalization and so on. My gut reaction was to wonder why he was being defensive enough about somebody criticizing OC for sprawl to pen this piece. I wondered if somebody he deals with frequently makes it a point to share their opinion on this with him. But then I realized that that is, of course, not just the guy's blog, but a campaign outlet, of sorts. I certainly hope he's not being defensive on purpose, to preach to some kind of choir on this. That would not be helpful.

[jiminnm]

And, as I'm sure you've noticed, the roads and schools within the City of Detroit were allowed to rot, simply because there is only so much money go around.

Last time I looked DPS was spending $12-13,000 per pupil per year. That put their expenditures in the top 10 or 12 spending school systems in major cities.

The schools didn't rot because of lack of money. There was always money, but it was incredibly poorly spent.

[oladub]

Some numbers:

US population in 1970 = 202M
US population in 2010 = 311M

That's a 50% growth in population in 40 years. At that rate, we will have 455M by 2050. Much of the 'sprawl' then = population growth because all those extra people need more schools, shops, parks, roads, and everything else. About half of sprawl is due to population growth. the other half, as of 1990, is because of more per capita land consumption.

[ghettopalmetto]

And the graph that Oladub shows is averaged over the 100 largest metropolitan areas. What does it look like for a region that hasn't grown in population in 40 years???

[erikd]

There are a number of quality posts on this thread that point out the flaws in the ideology promoted by LBP. LBP, and the people who share his mindset, are deeply committed to the post-war vision of an auto-centic, disposable lifestyle, which is extremely wasteful and unsustainable.

There is no point in debating this subject with LBP or any person who subscribes to the unsustainable ideology of sprawl. They will not accept any evidence or logic that proves the unsustainable nature of their mindset, and they will fight anything or anybody who says otherwise.

We are now entering a period where the debates about sustainability and sprawl will not not matter, because the reality of the situation will be self evident, and these un-sustainable ways of life will literally become un-sustainable.

The reality of $4 or $5 or $6 dollar a gallon for gas will happen in the very near future. This will force us to change how we live our lives. The reality of bankrupt local and state governments will force us deal with the unsustainable nature of sprawl. Our local and state governments have not been solvent for a few years now, and they have been getting by with one-time fixes, accounting tricks, and federal bail-outs. The period of gimmicks, tricks, and bailouts is almost over, and the period of reckoning will begin soon, like it or not.

It doesn't matter what LBP thinks about sprawl or sustainability, because it won't be a debate in the near future. The simple facts are that we have a declining population, a declining tax base, and declining revenue that simply will not allow us the ability to invest in, or support, additional infrastructure.

I am done with debating moot points with moronic ideologues like LBP. Metro Detroit and Michigan has steadily lost population, income, tax revenue, and jobs for years. These are the facts. This is our reality. Any person who advocates spending more money and resources for the expansion of our built environment, in the face of declining population and income, is a complete idiot. Even a child can grasp the concept that less people with less money can not afford to expand and build more stuff.

[Hermod]

And, as I'm sure you've noticed, the roads and schools within the City of Detroit were allowed to rot, simply because there is only so much money go around.

Detroit got its per pupil allowance from the state just as the suburbs did. Most of the cash disappeared into the combination jobs program/kleptocracy that is the COD and DPS.

[R8RBOB]

There are a number of quality posts on this thread that point out the flaws in the ideology promoted by LBP. LBP, and the people who share his mindset, are deeply committed to the post-war vision of an auto-centic, disposable lifestyle, which is extremely wasteful and unsustainable.

There is no point in debating this subject with LBP or any person who subscribes to the unsustainable ideology of sprawl. They will not accept any evidence or logic that proves the unsustainable nature of their mindset, and they will fight anything or anybody who says otherwise.

We are now entering a period where the debates about sustainability and sprawl will not not matter, because the reality of the situation will be self evident, and these un-sustainable ways of life will literally become un-sustainable.

The reality of $4 or $5 or $6 dollar a gallon for gas will happen in the very near future. This will force us to change how we live our lives. The reality of bankrupt local and state governments will force us deal with the unsustainable nature of sprawl. Our local and state governments have not been solvent for a few years now, and they have been getting by with one-time fixes, accounting tricks, and federal bail-outs. The period of gimmicks, tricks, and bailouts is almost over, and the period of reckoning will begin soon, like it or not.

It doesn't matter what LBP thinks about sprawl or sustainability, because it won't be a debate in the near future. The simple facts are that we have a declining population, a declining tax base, and declining revenue that simply will not allow us the ability to invest in, or support, additional infrastructure.

I am done with debating moot points with moronic ideologues like LBP. Metro Detroit and Michigan has steadily lost population, income, tax revenue, and jobs for years. These are the facts. This is our reality. Any person who advocates spending more money and resources for the expansion of our built environment, in the face of declining population and income, is a complete idiot. Even a child can grasp the concept that less people with less money can not afford to expand and build more stuff.

Right on the money. Even L. Brooks Patterson knows that bad times have arrived but he has to keep the masses happy with pie in the sky talk. The county's triple A bond rating doesn't mean nothing if Troy is planning to close their library or the county seat is disbanding its police force or communities like Madison Heights actively recruiting Detroiters to send their kids to their schools. [[Racism stopped that project) From Detroit to Pontiac and from Pontiac to Mt. Clemens everyone is feeling the pain. Lack of people moving here, lack of companies relocating here has crippled the economy. Brooks can boast of sprawl all he wants but if he don't get the people to move to his county then it will be a waste of money.

[erikd]

As a secondary point in response to LBP's histrionics, his vilification of cities, and the rationalization of his support of suburban sprawl is quite obvious in his rantings, but his promotion of "Oakland County" as a more desirable alternative to living in a city never addresses the issues faced by the Oakland County seat in Pontiac.

Most people don't think about the fact that LBP runs Oakland County from the county seat in Pontiac. All of the accusations and derision that he uses to justify his hatred of cities and love of sprawl is truly despicable when you realize the fact that Pontiac is the perfect example of everything that LBP despises. LBP loves to point out the poor leadership and failures of government in "cities", specifically Detroit. LBP is constantly saying that people left the Detroit and moved to Oakland County because of poor government leaders, taxes, etc.

His accusations against Detroit and his promotion of Oakland County ring hollow when you look at the conditions in Pontiac.

This is a segment of an official statement he just published on the Oakland County government website:

"Sprawl did not cause the decline of the cities. Cities declined because they squandered their assets. High crime rates, high taxes, failing schools, foul air and a lack of open green spaces forced people to move.

Sprawlers, like me, simply wanted a home with green grass on a safe, well maintained street, a quality neighborhood school that actually educated their children, a good job, nearby parks and recreational spaces, and a local government that actually delivers the services their taxes paid for. In other words, they wanted a place like today's Oakland County."
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LBP should look out the window of his office in Pontiac and see what is really going on. When I look at the county seat of Oakland County, I see a city in state receivership, a city with high crime, failing schools, and a lack of jobs. For some reason, LBP ignores the plight of the city that he rules from, and pretends like it doesn't even exist, while he derides the leaders in city of Detroit for not solving the same problems that he has not solved in his own city.

LBP is an ignorant blowhard who has benefitted from being in the right place at the right time as the wave of suburban sprawl swept through Oakland County. He did not cause this to happen, and he has been completely ineffective in addressing the consequences of de-urbanization and disinvestment in the city of Pontiac, or any place in Oakland County with a large black or hispanic population.

Everything that LBP says should be taken with a grain of salt. He is quick to take credit for all of the "growth" in Oakland County that happened when the businesses and residents moved up I-75 as part of the mass suburbanization of America, but he takes no responsibility for the continued decline of the city that he rules from. LBP is quick to criticize the leaders in Detroit for bad decisions and poor leadership, but his opinions and viewpoints don't have much validity as long as Pontiac continues to suffer and fail under his watch.