Theatre Bizarre

[Goose]

problem is once the city is involved, and permits and other crap needs to be adhered to, the party has probably "jumped the shark" and would never resemble what it formerly was.....

[Thruster315]

problem is once the city is involved, and permits and other crap needs to be adhered to, the party has probably "jumped the shark" and would never resemble what it formerly was.....

I dunno. The City got involved with DEMF and some can actually say it got better. As long as the talent and uniqueness of the event stays true to the core of the event, TB should be fine.

I didn't get a chance to go this year. I want to hear from the people who went last night to the Sta..., er, Fillmore. The Freep ran some photos but that's all I've seen. I want eyewitness accounts to the event and maybe some comparisons to how it once was.

[izzyindetroit]

I dunno. The City got involved with DEMF and some can actually say it got better. As long as the talent and uniqueness of the event stays true to the core of the event, TB should be fine.

I didn't get a chance to go this year. I want to hear from the people who went last night to the Sta..., er, Fillmore. The Freep ran some photos but that's all I've seen. I want eyewitness accounts to the event and maybe some comparisons to how it once was.

It was a great time, definitely needs to be outside. The Fillmore was extremely congested and hot which made it difficult to easily and comfortably walk around and truly take in the scene.

Big kudos go out to the creators and volunteers for transforming the venue in less than 24 hours. Can't wait for next year!

[1KielsonDrive]

I guess that's what happens when grass roots projects get too successful. They draw the attention of too many people, including city officials.

I think it has more to do with how much money they're making and how little they followed ordinances and laws. Now, we all know Detroit can use all of the help it can get, be it events, parties, festivals, etc. But my understanding is they made a huge amount of money and wanted to sell liquor illegally. There are a whole lot of businesses out here, mine included, paying top dollars for insurance; liability, liquor liability, property, fire and hazard, etc, etc, not to mention sales taxes, liquor licenses, city and state business licenses, health department, fire and safety inspection fees, etc, etc, etc. It's not fair they should be able to throw a huge party devoid of any regulation and fees, charge big bucks and walk away with big profits, just because its a cool event. They need to do it properly.

[Meddle]

Some posts above are examples of why it pays to READ before replying. From the article I posted earlier:

Attorney Rose Daher, who was brought in Thursday to help Theatre Bizarre obtain a one-day special liquor permit, said this afternoon that she had been notified that officials from the Detroit Fire Department and the city’s Buildings, Safety Engineering and Environmental Department were not going to allow the event to proceed because of alleged zoning and other violations.

She said Theatre Bizarre organizers will be in full compliance with all codes in the future. No citations were issued today after officials inspected the premises.

There were getting the liquor permit and inspections. It wasn't a safety concern. It was about Zoning, aka Fees. It was a money grab attempt. If they had been trying to be sneaky, they wouldn't have had the inspectors out there to begin with.

[1KielsonDrive]

Some posts above are examples of why it pays to READ before replying. From the article I posted earlier:



There were getting the liquor permit and inspections. It wasn't a safety concern. It was about Zoning, aka Fees. It was a money grab attempt. If they had been trying to be sneaky, they wouldn't have had the inspectors out there to begin with.

Regardless of your post, which by gosh, isn't the final word on the subject, I've spoken with a few people who have a pretty good, informed idea of what took place. And they aren't 'establishment' bureaucrats, they are fans. Fairly objective fans, it seems. I stick with my assessment. Some people, especially those with little experience, think all regulation is a money grab. Sorry to disappoint you. And I speak from the experience of a skeptic who deals with those inspectors, regulators, enforcement officers, etc, on a regular basis. I find it interesting you said 'they wouldn't have had the inspectors out there to begin with'. If they're motives were upfront, they have nothing to complain about. Fix the problems and move on. I also heard ticket prices were pretty stiff. That's not a 'money grab'?

[Thruster315]

I also heard ticket prices were pretty stiff. That's not a 'money grab'?

Agreed. It's funny how when the City officials want money, it's called a "money grab" but when people want to turn a buck, it's somehow noble. Personally I don't fault the City for wanting its zoning money but then conversely I don't fault the TB organizers for wanting to make a buck either. I do see 1KielsonDrive's point in that the TB folks should've looked into this sort of thing a long time ago to make sure they were within compliance. And if they knew that it was going to cost X amount, they should've billed it onto their admission... and then let the public choose if they want to attend or not if they deemed it too pricey.

[Thruster315]

It was a great time, definitely needs to be outside. The Fillmore was extremely congested and hot which made it difficult to easily and comfortably walk around and truly take in the scene.

Big kudos go out to the creators and volunteers for transforming the venue in less than 24 hours. Can't wait for next year!

Glad to know they got it together and still had a good time. Knowing what they know now, I hope the organizers can get it back to being the outdoor event it has been. I'm sure it was a visual feast as always.

[Meddle]

As I recall, TB doesn't make any money.

And no expense is spared on that or on anything else. Every year organizers spend massive amounts on entertainment alone, ensuring that the quality and amount of perfromances people enjoy is nothing short of top-notch. “People are getting a MINIMUM $100 show with the amount of entertainment we provide,” Poirier states, but people are willing to pay much more than that just to get through the gates -- tickets for this year’s sold-out show are selling on craigslist for up to $150 a piece. If that sounds like a lot, consider this: last year’s production took in about $70,000, but it cost $70,500 to put on…and that doesn’t even factor in other expenses like electricity bills and property taxes.

http://detroit.metromix.com/events/a...548363/content

[princealbert]

As I recall, TB doesn't make any money.





http://detroit.metromix.com/events/a...548363/content

I'm sure they want everyone to believe that. When there's that much money changing hands the C of D Buildings, Safety Engineering and Environmental Dept. might be the least of their worries.

[princealbert]

Which is it? Do you want Detroit to remain a 3rd world city where anything goes or do you want it to recover and become a thriving city again? As much disdain as I have for the bureaucracy in this town, can you blame city officials for shutting down an event that brings a bunch of suburban folks into a blind pig, all while the organizers are flaunting it? Not very good for the city's image. Not only that, but 2200 people partying til 6 in the morning, who is liable when someone gets hurt? Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Oh yeah, there are those pesky neighbors, always complaining. Who cares about them? It's just the ghetto.

[Pcm]

As I recall, TB doesn't make any money.





http://detroit.metromix.com/events/a...548363/content

It was quoted in an article somewhere that there were 3,000 people in attendance. Let's say that's an over estimate, and pretend there were only 2,000.

Tickets were $65.

$65 x 2,000 = $130,000

I'm sure they made a couple of bucks.

However, my girlfriend went and had a blast. Who cares about the politics. They were putting together an amazing event, in a city where you can pretty much get away with anything [[good or bad), and helped define Detroit as a place where underground arts and culture thrive. Good for them. Now that they're big time, the organizers should [[and will) do it right, permits included.

[Wesley Mouch]

Which is it? Do you want Detroit to remain a 3rd world city where anything goes or do you want it to recover and become a thriving city again?

A thriving city does not come out of inflexible bureaucracy.

As much disdain as I have for the bureaucracy in this town, can you blame city officials for shutting down an event that brings a bunch of suburban folks into a blind pig, all while the organizers are flaunting it? Not very good for the city's image.

Suburban folks? Where'd you get that from? But more to the point, is image more important than reality? The city would do better now with an image of flexibility, not bureaucracy.

Not only that, but 2200 people partying til 6 in the morning, who is liable when someone gets hurt? Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. ...

This was the 9th or 10th year they've done this.

Detroit should become a city of 'yes', not 'no'. This may not have been a perfect event, but they tried to do it right this year. The city was aware of this event, said yes until the last second, and then pulled the plug at the last second.

The first-world city of New York, on the other hand, is reducing the time to transfer a liquor license from around a year down to a few weeks.

It can be done. As my friend John would say, 'get the hell out of my way'.

[izzyindetroit]

I think it has more to do with how much money they're making and how little they followed ordinances and laws. Now, we all know Detroit can use all of the help it can get, be it events, parties, festivals, etc. But my understanding is they made a huge amount of money and wanted to sell liquor illegally. There are a whole lot of businesses out here, mine included, paying top dollars for insurance; liability, liquor liability, property, fire and hazard, etc, etc, not to mention sales taxes, liquor licenses, city and state business licenses, health department, fire and safety inspection fees, etc, etc, etc. It's not fair they should be able to throw a huge party devoid of any regulation and fees, charge big bucks and walk away with big profits, just because its a cool event. They need to do it properly.

They don't sell any drinks, they give them away.

[1KielsonDrive]

Glad to know they got it together and still had a good time. Knowing what they know now, I hope the organizers can get it back to being the outdoor event it has been. I'm sure it was a visual feast as always.

Agreed. Thank you.

[1KielsonDrive]

As I recall, TB doesn't make any money.





http://detroit.metromix.com/events/a...548363/content

If theyr'e a non-profit, open the books.

[1KielsonDrive]

A thriving city does not come out of inflexible bureaucracy.



Suburban folks? Where'd you get that from? But more to the point, is image more important than reality? The city would do better now with an image of flexibility, not bureaucracy.



This was the 9th or 10th year they've done this.

Detroit should become a city of 'yes', not 'no'. This may not have been a perfect event, but they tried to do it right this year. The city was aware of this event, said yes until the last second, and then pulled the plug at the last second.

The first-world city of New York, on the other hand, is reducing the time to transfer a liquor license from around a year down to a few weeks.

It can be done. As my friend John would say, 'get the hell out of my way'.

Underlined - how do you know this? Highlighted - cities don't issue liquor licenses, the state does. Cities only approve or deny liquor licenses. Regardless, your point that the process should be streamlined is an excellent one. Michigan Liquor Control Commission is a TERRIBLE bureaucracy. If Michigan would like to be viewed as a business friendly state, the MLCC should be streamlined and/or eliminated.

[1KielsonDrive]

They don't sell any drinks, they give them away.

All the more reason they should be regulated.

[izzyindetroit]

All the more reason they should be regulated.

So any party in which the host hands you a beer as you walk through the door ought to be regulated??

[Gannon]

Not if they're NOT charging any admission fee.


If there is a ticket price, or any form of payment or trade to enter the event, then yeah...it should be regulated.


This is WAY more than a mere 'party', and you know that...but you want to find the loopholes around current law.


I'm sure Kielson would agree that the regulations are onerous and excessive...but if he can find a way to play the game and stay in business [[while starting up in a down economy), then everyone should be able to as well. Especially a venue which has been growing for ten years.

And THEY know it, clearly.



Cheers

[DetroitPole]

The administrations and city council have always been prudish, and this is no exception.

Buried in the Free Press a few weeks ago Karen Dumbass, speaking for King Bing, expressed how the city doesn't want the medical marijuana conference at Cobo because of the negative association it would bring to the city.

Like the biggest negative association this city has to worry about is a medical marijuana conference??

Forth Street fair was busted...now Theatre Bizarre...remember CAID getting busted. Sensing a pattern here?

The administration[[s) have an EXTREME distain for counter-cultural movements. They'd like to rebuild this city on archologies like the Ren Cen, stadiums, and casionos [[didn't work, didn't work, didn't work) but all world-class cities have a Bohemian flavor. They are determined to stamp it out here.

Which is ironic, given the broad-daylight not-so-underground economy of drug slinging and scrapping.

So what about all these after-hours clubs where people get blown to kingdom come on a regular basis? Nah, go after the hipsters and freaks and geeks.

[izzyindetroit]

Not if they're NOT charging any admission fee.


If there is a ticket price, or any form of payment or trade to enter the event, then yeah...it should be regulated.


This is WAY more than a mere 'party', and you know that...but you want to find the loopholes around current law.


I'm sure Kielson would agree that the regulations are onerous and excessive...but if he can find a way to play the game and stay in business [[while starting up in a down economy), then everyone should be able to as well. Especially a venue which has been growing for ten years.

And THEY know it, clearly.



Cheers

I have been to plenty of college parties, celebrations, and other gatherings where you pay $5 to enter and receive your little red cup. Many of which happen on a annual basis and command large crowds.

Where is the difference? There isn't one, yet you don't read in the news 24 hours before the 12th Annual Homecoming Bash, how the city is shutting down the Alpha House because they don't have a license for the barrels of beer they are "selling."

[Gannon]

You may not have a clue on what you just wrote. The city does indeed clamp down on 'Alpha House' and the like when they learn of events in time to mount a raid.

Just because a number of those events have gone on under the radar, doesn't make it right.

Back when I was in the Pike house at Wayne...probably 1986-8, if memory serves...we got hit hard for those parties. A few of the Wayne State Public Safety had it out for us, so there was no way to stay under the radar.

Matter of fact, before I joined...one of my oldest grade and high school friends was a superstar football player for Wayne State [[who went on to twelve years in the NFL) who got into a few huge brawls at a few of the Pike parties.

Afterwards, there was heavy supervision every time a crowd came around the house. The group adjusted to the new reality...and just like Theater Bizarre is doing, they changed their behavior to remain on the right side of the law.


After the extreme dram shop laws were passed, largely due the mourning mothers exploited by the insurance industry in front of the legislature, all of the parties like you describe are under high scrutiny, and rightfully so. The liability of anyone providing alcohol to one who then goes off and injures or kills someone is simply too extreme to not be insured against.

Only way to get insurance is to go legal.


So if you want to continue going to those large events where you can drink all you want for $5...do so at your own risk. Those putting ON those types of parties are some of the dimmest on the block. They will get theirs, eventually.


Cheers, anyways.

[Gannon]

DetroitPole,

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

There DOES need to be some flexibility from the city, but unfortunately in my experience...once bureaucracy is established, it is all but impossible to change it...as they have the entrenched power to continue existing. They will do all they can to stay around, and have some validity to those who pay them.


BTW, as far as 'every little party' being supervised...even as I said that is the law and it is foolish to expose oneself to it's harsh penalties...I also recognize that much of the regulation and licensing is excessive and onerous. But that applies to nearly ALL business, nowadays.


Do the laws need to be amended to allow small case-beer [[not keg) parties and open up the availability of fast temporary permits to be acquired for events?! Absolutely and without question.

If a small group of friends comes together, there is really no reason for the party to not be BYO, if only to cover the liability, ever so slightly, of the one daring to throw the party. I do not see a reason for multiple kegs in home parties. Ever.

People should be able to enjoy draft beer at home, but as soon as they start having capacity crowds screwing up the neighborhood...it is more than a simple alcohol issue. There will likely be noise issues, traffic problems, and more. Those parties do not belong in anyone's house in a residential neighborhood.


Cheers

[Bearinabox]

You may not have a clue on what you just wrote. The city does indeed clamp down on 'Alpha House' and the like when they learn of events in time to mount a raid.

Just because a number of those events have gone on under the radar, doesn't make it right.

Back when I was in the Pike house at Wayne...probably 1986-8, if memory serves...we got hit hard for those parties. A few of the Wayne State Public Safety had it out for us, so there was no way to stay under the radar.

Matter of fact, before I joined...one of my oldest grade and high school friends was a superstar football player for Wayne State [[who went on to twelve years in the NFL) who got into a few huge brawls at a few of the Pike parties.

Afterwards, there was heavy supervision every time a crowd came around the house. The group adjusted to the new reality...and just like Theater Bizarre is doing, they changed their behavior to remain on the right side of the law.


After the extreme dram shop laws were passed, largely due the mourning mothers exploited by the insurance industry in front of the legislature, all of the parties like you describe are under high scrutiny, and rightfully so. The liability of anyone providing alcohol to one who then goes off and injures or kills someone is simply too extreme to not be insured against.

Only way to get insurance is to go legal.


So if you want to continue going to those large events where you can drink all you want for $5...do so at your own risk. Those putting ON those types of parties are some of the dimmest on the block. They will get theirs, eventually.


Cheers, anyways.

Gannon? Did somebody steal your password or something?