Libertarians bash light rail

[iheartthed]

It seems that the considered opinion here is that Light rail from Hart Plaza to 8 mile will be great.

Fine. I believe you feel that way.

However, whom here is going to open a business on Woodward, or buy a house/condo on the route? How will you use the rail line every day?

I must confess, I look forward to the Light Rail, but I'll use it just like I use the People Mover. Every so often, once in a while. I like the PM. But they don't make any money off of me. How about you?

How will you use Light Rail?

I'll use it about as much as I use M-53... Once in a blue moon.

[rsa.313]

Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it.

i guess the 60,000 people that live along the route aren't "average." or the students going from one CCS campus to the other. or the workers that might use it to catch lunch outside of walking distance. or commuters using amtrack wanting to get downtown.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

yeah, kinda like people using the argument that if it doesn't serve them it's a stupid idea.

[gnome]

So, RSA, does that mean you will or will not use light rail everyday?

I'm really interested in hearing from those who will use the light rail. Not so much their opinions that OTHER people will use it.

Will the real-live future users please stand up! or not?

[Johnlodge]

So, RSA, does that mean you will or will not use light rail everyday?

I'm really interested in hearing from those who will use the light rail. Not so much their opinions that OTHER people will use it.

Will the real-live future users please stand up! or not?

If it goes to 8 mile, or better yet does get extended to Ferndale [[Ferndale would want it to if possible as I posted above), I will probably use it for entertainment/sporting event purposes a reasonable amount, since I could walk to the station. When I was at CCS, I would have used it almost daily.

[gnome]

Is that twice a month? twice a week? hmm 80 baseball games, 8 football games is pretty good. so that is 88 times a yr? that would be double or triple my ridership.

[rsa.313]

i would absolutely use it every day. one of the stops would be within walking distance of my home.

[Johnlodge]

Is that twice a month? twice a week? hmm 80 baseball games, 8 football games is pretty good. so that is 88 times a yr? that would be double or triple my ridership.

We go downtown for more than sporting events, though those are the bulk. Also go to music venues, festivals, etc. I only really hang out either in Ferndale or downtown. Don't drink and drive, so usually in Ferndale.

[jt1]

If it does get extended to the suburbs I'll use it daily to get out there to rob, beat and pillage suburbanites.

[rhythmc]

I love these two posts.

Area around the state fair has been proposed as a site for a major shopping center.

The stops on a light rail line will be fixed. People will create and improve business around these stops to take advantage of all types of people that choose to ride the rail.

Also, while this might stop at eight mile now, it does have to start somewhere. While you might not believe it a number of people take smart bus downtown and out of town on Woodward.

I'm not sure why all the detractors of the rail plan have the tone that the project will only be a single line forever or that the whole system is supposed to magically appear. As stated in the quoted post above, businesses seeing the potential for increased revenue will move to bound the transit line or improve what is already there. Therefore, people will not simply bypass the communities to reach Hart Plaza or the stadiums [[as the video tried to "cleverly" edit to make it seem). They'll use it for other points of interest as they become available. The system will expand with time.

Then they try to drag out the stat [[I'm not sure where they got it) that says that lower income people would prefer a bus to get them to and from wherever it is they need to go. I'm not sure that could be remotely true in Detroit with two highly disjointed bus systems meant to ferry people in and around the city as well as from the city to far-flung 'burbs for jobs. SMART and DDOT need to merge and work along with the rail line to make getting to and from destinations easier for the people they used as examples.

[

I would look at the light rail project like a building a old college football stadium. Let me use the "Big House" as an example. When Michigan Stadium was built, it was a hole in a ground. It was small because there no great demand to put tens of thousands in the stadium to watch Michigan football. As the years went by and the teams got better more and more fans went to the stadium and the university administrators realized that the stadium was too small for their fanbase so they started adding on to the stadium and they added on some more and they are still adding on to this very day.

My point is projects like the light rail must start off small because no one knows the future that awaits Detroit and the metro area but to make excuses why not to do it is the reason why the region is in the shape it is now. If they build the rail to the SF grounds and the rail catches on then perhaps L. Brooks or the next executive might want it going through RO but there has to be start but to call it a train to nowhere is a product of the hate that divides Detroit from its suburbs.

Additionally, if the lines prove to be successful, you can only expect that more lines and stops will follow. Look at the DC Metro Rail System. It is still growing.

Charlie, and people like him, seem to be stuck on conventional means and methods to turn Detroit around. Taking what is essentially a gift and spending it on normal operations is very short sighted and will not help the city. Kind of a chicken and egg thing, I know. If you look to places like the Bronx and Harlem, NY, those places fell hard. Many of the better off families left for greener pastures. Suddenly, AIDS/HIV rates increased in addition to the level of poverty. The problem is that the people affecting those stats had always been there, much like Detroit and the school scores dropping precipitously as more well off families have headed to the 'burbs and out of state. The city of Detroit needs to grow. So, an infusion of something drastically different needs to be attempted, at least. At this point, radical change is necessary.

What would happen if the rail line attracted people to live in areas served by the rail line who would have otherwise chosen to live in the suburbs [[black, white, hispanic, asian)? What if they stayed even after they had children and sent those children to DPS? What if the parents were as involved in DPS as they would be in the burbs [[assuming they would be involved)? Like magic, you've probably got the beginnings to a better DPS.

This continues to smell of protectionism on the part of the 'burbs and their boosters to keep what they have and get more, some of that being at Detroit's expense.

[R8RBOB]

I love these two posts.



I'm not sure why all the detractors of the rail plan have the tone that the project will only be a single line forever or that the whole system is supposed to magically appear. As stated in the quoted post above, businesses seeing the potential for increased revenue will move to bound the transit line or improve what is already there. Therefore, people will not simply bypass the communities to reach Hart Plaza or the stadiums [[as the video tried to "cleverly" edit to make it seem). They'll use it for other points of interest as they become available. The system will expand with time.

Then they try to drag out the stat [[I'm not sure where they got it) that says that lower income people would prefer a bus to get them to and from wherever it is they need to go. I'm not sure that could be remotely true in Detroit with two highly disjointed bus systems meant to ferry people in and around the city as well as from the city to far-flung 'burbs for jobs. SMART and DDOT need to merge and work along with the rail line to make getting to and from destinations easier for the people they used as examples.



Additionally, if the lines prove to be successful, you can only expect that more lines and stops will follow. Look at the DC Metro Rail System. It is still growing.

Charlie, and people like him, seem to be stuck on conventional means and methods to turn Detroit around. Taking what is essentially a gift and spending it on normal operations is very short sighted and will not help the city. Kind of a chicken and egg thing, I know. If you look to places like the Bronx and Harlem, NY, those places fell hard. Many of the better off families left for greener pastures. Suddenly, AIDS/HIV rates increased in addition to the level of poverty. The problem is that the people affecting those stats had always been there, much like Detroit and the school scores dropping precipitously as more well off families have headed to the 'burbs and out of state. The city of Detroit needs to grow. So, an infusion of something drastically different needs to be attempted, at least. At this point, radical change is necessary.

What would happen if the rail line attracted people to live in areas served by the rail line who would have otherwise chosen to live in the suburbs [[black, white, hispanic, asian)? What if they stayed even after they had children and sent those children to DPS? What if the parents were as involved in DPS as they would be in the burbs [[assuming they would be involved)? Like magic, you've probably got the beginnings to a better DPS.

This continues to smell of protectionism on the part of the 'burbs and their boosters to keep what they have and get more, some of that being at Detroit's expense.

I'm glad you like the post but one of those post belongs to me..LOL. Posters like me need the credit.....

[rhythmc]

I'm glad you like the post but one of those post belongs to me..LOL. Posters like me need the credit.....

My mistake. I totally mispulled the quote.

[R8RBOB]

My mistake. I totally mispulled the quote.

That's okay but you're right about the rail. Simple-minded people believe that this is going to be another People Mover and the PM was suppose the start of a much needed transit system in Detroit but the haters like the ones in the story came out with their knives sharpen to kill any opportunity for transit in Detroit proper. Now they have returned to once again to poison the need for transit. This story has been played out for too long and it is time to move forward.

[Hermod]

I already thought of you chiming in, Hermod. That's why I wrote "suburbs as we know them." Satisfied?

You made an assertion that there was a "road to nowhere" built into the suburbs that caused the growth of the suburbs. I responded that the suburbs grew based on the existing road net and that the roads were widened and improved as a response to population growth. In other words, the population came first, then the upgrading of the section line roads. I worked for the City of Troy engineering department [[all four of us) in 1959. There were several subdivisions under construction or expansion at the time, but no "roads to nowhere". The only "through roads" in the city at the time were the section line roads, some of which were paved and some of which were gravel.

[Russix]

You made an assertion that there was a "road to nowhere" built into the suburbs that caused the growth of the suburbs. I responded that the suburbs grew based on the existing road net and that the roads were widened and improved as a response to population growth. In other words, the population came first, then the upgrading of the section line roads. I worked for the City of Troy engineering department [[all four of us) in 1959. There were several subdivisions under construction or expansion at the time, but no "roads to nowhere". The only "through roads" in the city at the time were the section line roads, some of which were paved and some of which were gravel.

Makes sense. A freeway grew out of a post road. Light rail grows out of the busiest bus corridor in the state[[9 bus routes, possibly busiest non-rail served corridor in the US).

[ghettopalmetto]

I responded that the suburbs grew based on the existing road net and that the roads were widened and improved as a response to population growth. In other words, the population came first, then the upgrading of the section line roads.

And once again, do subdivisions and strip malls ALWAYS get constructed BEFORE the roads, or just some of the time???

[EastsideAl]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Well, except for all the people who live between 8 Mile and downtown. And all the people who currently use the Woodward bus, which is the city's busiest and often SRO.

But then most of those people are invisible and of no consequence to LeDuff and some of the folks north of 8 Mile, who can only think about where they are going to park their cars.

The main reason the line goes to "nowhere" [[as suburbanites and clueless - as usual - libertarians would have it) is because some of the folks north of 8 Mile in Oakland Co. have given any attempt at regional cooperation the big "f-u darkies" finger once again.

[lilpup]

Light rail would just end up as a convenient way for suburbanites to get downtown to events without having to jeopardize their car parking it somewhere. It would be like the distant branches of the DC metro - park way out in Silver Springs where it's cheaper and safer and ride in. Of course this will kill off all the parking lots downtown but do nothing to attract more businesses.

[wolverine]

"By contrast, LeDuff points out pressing needs facing Detroiters, and Sam Staley, a transportation expert with the Reason Foundation, argues low-income residents often are better served by a bus system than rail.

"If the light rail system would come on by 2016 as planned, they would be trains to nowhere," Staley says. "You simply cannot have a Manhattan without the subway. But it's not the subway that built Manhattan, Manhattan built the subway. Light rail is not going to build Detroit.""

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong

Seriously, this is like transportation 101. Transportation builds the city. It's been proven by almost a century worth of development as a result of urban transportation. You can actually look at historical photos of New York, seeing all the speculative development built because of under construction subway line. Furthermore, the built Manhattan prior to subway construction was between 4-6 stories. There's no way the type of density and height could have been achieve without the assistance of heavy rail.

Need a modern day example? Look at Toronto.

Need an example close to home? Look at Chicago

Transportation expert huh?

Charlie LeDuff standing along Woodward near 8 Mile, the planned location of the rail line's final stop. "We got 44 ambulances," he says. "Twenty-two are supposed to be running. We got 17 or 18 on a given night because they're broken. Light rail?"

Please, at least come forward with some sort of real argument. You can make comparisons in this city on just about everything.

[canuck]

Sadly, the People Mover is something detractors of mass transit invetsment can point to as something that doesnt draw the users, and proof it doesnt improve Detroit. I like the people Mover, it's a good tool for downtown and should be kept extended in time even, but obviously it can only serve as a tourist or short hop commute. Obviously the city needs something more robust and light rail is part of a relatively inexpensive commuter rail solution. But I cant imagine anything but a suburban rail solution for a metro the size of Detroit. It is fairly expensive but some lines can be built in a matter of months, a couple of years.

[Hermod]

Yeah, it's a good thing they never built the M-53 or M-59 freeways!

Riddle me this: If you don't build any roads to nowhere, then how does the demand happen? I mean, do subdivisions and strip malls always sprout up before the roads, or just some of the time?

There were roads, mostly two lane with some paved and some gravel or oiled gravel. They were the "section line" roads and allowed for "farm to market" uses.

There was no great eight lane limited access "road to nowhere" running out through the fields.

When the subdivisions went in, the traffic increased to the point where the roads needed to be upgraded. There was a large subdivision just north of Rochester built in the 1950s off Tienken Road [[gravel) with gravel streets in the subdivision.

I drove quite a bit on M-59 when that was the designation of the narrow, black-top, two lane Auburn Road. North of Warren, Van Dyke was a two lane blacktop road. People built subdivisions off of it as well. The traffic came first, then the roads were upgraded or built.

[ghettopalmetto]

There were roads, mostly two lane with some paved and some gravel or oiled gravel. They were the "section line" roads and allowed for "farm to market" uses.

There was no great eight lane limited access "road to nowhere" running out through the fields.

When the subdivisions went in, the traffic increased to the point where the roads needed to be upgraded. There was a large subdivision just north of Rochester built in the 1950s off Tienken Road [[gravel) with gravel streets in the subdivision.

I drove quite a bit on M-59 when that was the designation of the narrow, black-top, two lane Auburn Road. North of Warren, Van Dyke was a two lane blacktop road. People built subdivisions off of it as well. The traffic came first, then the roads were upgraded or built.

So what you're saying is that the Michigan Department of Transportation has NEVER, NOT ONCE, ever engaged in any road construction or "improvement" endeavor based on "anticipated growth".

Not once?

Horseshit.

MDOT never ran a bypass around a town? Never built I-275? Never constructed the M-14 freeway? Didn't have anything to do with I-75 going up North? All the sprawl was there before a single God damned mile of pavement was laid, wasn't it?

[Magnatomicflux]

8 mile to Heart Plaza is a good start. Windsors streetcar system started with nothing more than a Sandwich to Walkerville line. Next thing you know your taking a interurban to Leamington. We'd still have it today if GM and Goodyear didn't want to jam buses and tire down our throat. Well....and pulling up the lines to melt them down for WW2.

[Bearinabox]

It seems that the considered opinion here is that Light rail from Hart Plaza to 8 mile will be great.

Fine. I believe you feel that way.

However, whom here is going to open a business on Woodward, or buy a house/condo on the route? How will you use the rail line every day?

I must confess, I look forward to the Light Rail, but I'll use it just like I use the People Mover. Every so often, once in a while. I like the PM. But they don't make any money off of me. How about you?

How will you use Light Rail?

I live near the route, and often work near other parts of the route. I can definitively say that I would use it more than once a week. I might make 5 round trips one week and only one the next, hard to predict. But I would use it, and use it often, and probably end up using it more than I use the bus now. Would they make money off me? That's a whole 'nother issue, and now you're getting into how DDOT covers its operations budget. But I thought the idea was for me to get utility out of it, not for it to get money out of me.

[BrushStart]

How will you use Light Rail?

I will use light rail at least 3 times [[round-trips) per week. Seeing as I live downtown, work downtown, and pretty much do everything else in my life in downtown/midtown/corktown, light rail will be a great benefit to me. I also ride the PM 4-5 times per week, usually more in the winter or during bad weather. In fact, I rode the PM to lunch today, walked home from work at 6, and got back on it to meet people for dinner because it was raining. That's twice in one day.

I lead a typical city life in Detroit and light rail would bring Detroit one step closer to being a functional urban environment. If you build a full service "super store" somewhere along the rail line. I would definitely retire my car instead of paying $70/mo to keep in it a parking garage.

[Fnemecek]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza?

It will go the same places that the Woodward Ave. bus currently goes, except that it will be faster and cheaper to operate.