The cost of paying off the Federal debt.

**Richard** · April-27-20, 09:19 PM

Trump campaigned on the saving dollars for every spent dollar,he merged duplicate government offices that required less staff.

Virus hits and the cry goes out that he fired the very people tasked with dealing with it,wasteful government spending is right at the top of the list and we really do not need 6 people performing the same task,just to have them on the payroll.

I guess he should have started out in a more simpler manner.

Like tweeting out the definition of fired verses merged and what it all means,

The states that have a majority based that is employed by the federal government will protest just as those whose states derive income from military bases will protest.

Things will always change while they remain the same,all the different presidents really do is shuffle pieces around on the chess board in order to give the illusion of change.

People like to say raise taxes etc. but there is no law that prevents them from sending a check to the IRS or volunteering to pay more.

If Warren Buffet was worried about him paying to little at 20% nothing in the world is stopping him from paying more.

But he does not and people still say .. but Buffet said this.

Just like the Disney granddaughter,nobody is preventing them from cutting a check for millions extra to the IRS,they will not send it back.

But yet for some strange reason the ones that claim do not actually do it.

I work for my money and am not going to just give it up that easy just because somebody else thinks they are entitled to it,just because they exist.

When those that seem the most concerned about start showing their receipts where they voluntarily paid their double tax at the end of the year or more then they were supposed to,then I will kick in a little extra.

Look at the millions now upset because their 1200 did not arrive yet,how much ya wanna bet when it does they cash it and when next years EIC comes available they will also take that.

They do not have to and are not required by law to,but they will and they will be protesting government debt.

Personaly I would like somebody to come forward and explain to me why they think they are entitled to my estate after I die,I paid taxes on it and the gains through the years right alongside of the sacrifices that needed to be made in order to achieve it.No different then millions of others.

Just for somebody to have the privilege of it because they were unwilling to do the same thing and feel it is owed to them?

I would do exactly what they do in the other countries that placed a high cost of death taxes,burn it to the ground and make sure none of it goes back into the system.

It is funny how countries like the UK that created heritage foundations that use 100s of millions in taxpayer payer funds in order to preserve estates thousands of years old in order to retain their history.

The exact same estates that were destroyed by implementing high death taxes,now they have to collect taxes in order to preserve history that they could not collect taxes on because they were destroyed by implementing a tax that they could not collect on.

Guess who ends up paying the highest percentage of death taxes,it is not the rich or intended target.

The funniest part even with the whole healthcare thing,the argument is always,well it works in Nordic countries and the UK and Canada we should be doing it also.

We are useing countries that are the size of a tea cup in comparison with a 1/3 of the population and the majority of that population is centered in a few major cities.

The United States was founded on independence,encompasses more land mass then a majority of the other countries and has a population of 325 million spread out all over creation and protected by a constitution and is one of the most diverse populations in the world.

This country was built and founded on less government in our lives and yet everybody is front stage and center trying to get the government involved in every aspect of their life and become dependent on them.

Yes we need to be prudent about government debt,because they are in it for hundreds of years at a time,but yet we are not personally expected to be prudent about our personal debt,3/4 of the country lives well beyond their means and drowning in debt,how are we to tell the federal government to be fiscally responsible and look for them to prop us up when we are not.

Well let’s see,I live in a 200K house while driving a new car with credit cards maxed out,fricking transfer of wealth has me living pay check to pay check,I demand more,if you wipe out my student loan then I can get a new credit card with higher limits.

We do not personally know what fiscal responsibility is let alone practice it but yet demand it from the federal government.

We really are not concerned about the flow of money until it slows down or stops.

That is the difference in those other countries,people buy local,shop local,for the most part practice smart spending,so they lift everybody up so they can afford to pay more,because they are small countries they can accept things in the greater good of the country.

Massive difference in getting 325 million individuals that clearly careless about the greater good to agree on the same things you can get a population of 30 million or less to agree on.

Most Americans do not even know weather we sent billions of dollars to the Sudan last year,and if we did,why,and was it smart spending by the government,they do not care,they only care about how much is in their check come Friday and if it is enough to pay the bills.

If somebody says,I can put more money in your pay check then they will have the vote,you really do not have to say how or if it is even fiscally responsible.

That is another thing with the small teacup countries,they are small enough where the general public actually pays attention to what is going on and makes it their business to know what is going on.

They also do not have the mass media that pulls the wool over their eyes.

Our form of government has always been a constant change over of reform and free spending,it was set up like that by the founding fathers by design.

Bring this back in ten more years, will ya?

Ray nailed it in 9 words,and 10 years from now it will be the same.

**oladub** · April-29-20, 12:16 AM

ABetterDetroit, Thank you for the reply [[post 24) advancing ideas to raise tax revenue.

Yahoo finance came up with some ideas. "The deficit will now hit at least $3.7 trillion this year and $2.1 trillion next year, according to the Congressional Budget Office. As a percentage of the economy, federal debt this year will be the highest since World War II, and possibly higher if there’s more stimulus spending.Budget hawks have typically called for a combination of tax hikes and spending cuts to lower Washington’s mushrooming debt load. But the federal deficit is now getting too big for conventional therapy, which could require a whole new form of taxation in the future." Ideas found in the article:

1.) Repealing the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act would raise about $1.5 trillion, which is $1 trillion less than the increase in U.S. debt in the last two months alone. Doing so would eliminate $1.5T which is less than new U.S. debt added in the last two months.

2.) A value-added tax. A 10% VAT would raise around $1 trillion per year. A new $30,000 car would cost an extra $3,000.

I disagree with the article's comment that inflation has been held at bay. Educational and health costs have far exceeded the cost of living. Inflation does not have to show up as rising evenly across the board. Also, it usually takes two incomes to support a family. It used to take just one.

Local governments might also have to raise tax revenue. The Mayor of Nashville has asked for a 32% property tax increase to, in part, make of for other revenue shortfalls associated with CV-19.

Articles suggesting where to significantly reduce federal spending are harder to find.
Rep. Massie says election year causing GOP colleagues to ‘abandon’ conservative principles

"You’ll go to the supermarket and you’ll want to buy chicken but all they’ll have is beef, you won’t go home hungry you’ll just go home thinking you live in Soviet Russia.”

**Richard** · May-01-20, 11:44 AM

Things being proposed now

30 to 50 billion for each state for their damages related to the corona virus,that is over and above the amounts already reimbursed to the states for anything Corona virus under the national emergency classification.

$1000 per month for each citizen for the next year.

The 2017 tax cuts put cash directly into the hands of the taxpayers who then instead of saving it for a rainy day,spent it immediately which put the revenue right back into the coffers of the government.

There is a difference between the government spending money that once it is spent it is gone verses spending money that comes back positively in 2-5-10 years down the road.

**ABetterDetroit** · May-04-20, 08:45 PM

[QUOTE=oladub;591535]Absolutely and I am on record as supporting the Simpson Bowles Commission proposal to increase taxes by one dollar for every two dollars of spending cuts. I would prefer that tax increases take the form of tariffs instead of dumping them on middle income taxpayers. How do you suggest, for starters, that we lob off $3T of debt for starters to offset pre CV-19 increases since Trump has been in? I'm on record as promoting less federal debt for at least 10 years according to those posts.[/QUOTE

I fail to see how a VAT tax is not dumping the tax load on “middle income tax payers” as you proposed in post #27.

I’m always willing to listen to different ideas, oladub. I just don’t appreciate direct contradictions as much as others. They are lies and lip service. In my opinion that is exactly how we arrived in this debt hell hole.

**oladub** · May-05-20, 09:47 AM

ABetterDetroit, I must not have made myself clear in post #27. I presented two other ideas, not my own, of how to bridge the spending gap and how much money they would raise without endorsing those proposals. Local and state governments, as mentioned, will also have to dramatically increase taxes to address their own needs.

I am on record as supporting $1 of new taxes for every $2 of federal spending cuts proposed by the Simpson Bowles Commission and raising tariffs to pay for a substantial part of the tax increases. Tariffs tax import corporations that profit by utilizing cheaper foreign labor. Reducing interventionism and related military expenses and federal spending not consistent with the 10th. Amendment would go a long ways to addressing federal spending cuts. Some of that reduced spending now being done by the federal government would electively be picked up by state governments.

You are correct that VAT taxes would fall heavily on the middle class. Bernie and Warren were going to heavily tax the rich. You suggested in post #24 that people in higher tax brackets be taxed more. Ending Trump's tax cuts would generally help but cause higher daycare costs and give back rich people their housing tax subsidies. The problem with all these proposals, including my own and yours, is that none of them would be sufficient to address the current debt problem as well as the additional CV-19 spending - about $5.9T - so far. So Lowell was probably right when he wrote, elsewhere, that devaluing the dollar will be a part of the mix. We will be told [[e.g.), 'sorry, but that new $30k car will cost $50k plus the 10% VAT tax'. Some mix of these ideas will be the cost of accepting our government's profligate spending. The alternative to not addressing runaway spending would be worse.

**Richard** · May-05-20, 03:36 PM

What is interesting is when people use the Nordic county’s as a plan for gov funded programs.

The reality is those countries are more capitalist then the United States,they do not even have a minimum wage.

They raise more revenue for the government coffers to pay for programs because they allow businesses to self regulate,in return they generate more profits with less which equals more tax revenue collected.

The number one selling cars in Germany are VW,Mercedes,Audi,BMW

Why ?

Because of the populations mindset,they have a dumb notion that if they buy cars manufactured in their country built by their fellow citizens,which in turn raises everybody up.

Same in the Nordic countries they are successful because the population has that same mindset.

What do we expect or even care about our national debt,it will always get worse because we have switched to a nation built in the service sector and our national debt is indicative of our mindset as a nation.

We did good after WW2 because we were about the only nation in the world that had the manufacturing ability that was not all bombed out.

We got soft in the process and decided we wanted to consume and not build.

3/4 of the nation is maxed out to the max with their check being spent before they get it,why should the government that we created be any different.

We want it now and cheap,that’s what we got,cheap because that is all we can afford,cheap only pays the bills for the ones selling it to you cheap.

Really,until the citizens wake up and stop blaming the federal government for our faults we will continue on the race to the bottom.

Then you have the wakos crying about transfer of wealth,but all of that wealth was not taken at gun point,you had to transfer your money to them in order for them to get it.

**Canadian Visitor** · May-05-20, 04:24 PM

[QUOTE=ABetterDetroit;592041]

Originally Posted by oladub

Absolutely and I am on record as supporting the Simpson Bowles Commission proposal to increase taxes by one dollar for every two dollars of spending cuts. I would prefer that tax increases take the form of tariffs instead of dumping them on middle income taxpayers. How do you suggest, for starters, that we lob off $3T of debt for starters to offset pre CV-19 increases since Trump has been in? I'm on record as promoting less federal debt for at least 10 years according to those posts.[/QUOTE

I fail to see how a VAT tax is not dumping the tax load on “middle income tax payers” as you proposed in post #27.

I’m always willing to listen to different ideas, oladub. I just don’t appreciate direct contradictions as much as others. They are lies and lip service. In my opinion that is exactly how we arrived in this debt hell hole.

I would argue a VAT need not be particularly regressive.

In Canada, we exempt residential rent, and all basic food stuffs [[not junk food) from the HST [[our VAT). It also doesn't apply to core health services in our case; or to prescription drugs.

We also rebate the sales tax:

The phase-outs [[to zero) are at just over $46,000 for a single person w/no children, to single parent, 4 children at just over
$61,000 per year.

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...st-credit.html

The peak credit, for the provincial+ federal credits in ON is around $750 for the year. For a 13% VAT if you have no children. There's an additional amount of a couple hundred or so per child.

You can tinker with a richer rebate/diff. income thresholds to further reduce any regressive impact.

**ABetterDetroit** · May-05-20, 07:57 PM

Another reason I would argue for adjusting the top brackets of the income tax higher to increase revenues is it would not require the construction of a new bureaucracy to collect. The apparatus for collection already exists. It would be not necessary to create a new trained workforce to implement, a new branch of the IRS etc... Increasing the top brackets would be a cost effective way to raise the revenues to balance budgets and begin to stabilize debt immediately.

Endless debate on tax theory and ideology has run out of time. That has proven to be little more than stall tactics to back burner the issue as the debt continues to explode in size.

**aj3647** · May-12-20, 03:37 PM

Federal budget deficit for the month of April: $738 billion

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN22O2SG

For the sake of comparison, that one-month deficit is higher than the deficit for Obama's entire last year in office.

**Honky Tonk** · May-12-20, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Federal budget deficit for the month of April: $738 billion

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN22O2SG

For the sake of comparison, that one-month deficit is higher than the deficit for Obama's entire last year in office.

Good call. Trump should have followed Obama's lead and done nothing about the pandemic.

**aj3647** · May-12-20, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Good call. Trump should have followed Obama's lead and done nothing about the pandemic.

Which pandemic did Obama do nothing about? Name one.

And as I recall, Obama was EXCORIATED by the Right for responding to the Great Recession with massive federal stimulus spending. Although, compared to Trump's spending, Obama's deficit seem downright quaint by comparison. But that was then, and this is now, and if history has shown anything it's that "Republicans only care about deficits when there's a Democrat in the White House."

**Honky Tonk** · May-12-20, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Which pandemic did Obama do nothing about? Name one.

And as I recall, Obama was EXCORIATED by the Right for responding to the Great Recession with massive federal stimulus spending. Although, compared to Trump's spending, Obama's deficit seem downright quaint by comparison. But that was then, and this is now, and if history has shown anything it's that "Republicans only care about deficits when there's a Democrat in the White House."

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/house-demo...193100797.html

**Honky Tonk** · May-12-20, 08:48 PM

https://www.bozsh.com/News/Nancy-Pel...d-package.html

WHAT'S IN DEMOCRATS' NEW $3 TRILLION CORONAVIRUS PACKAGE?
$1 trillion – one-third of the total – for state and local governments to pay essential workers like first responders, health workers and teachers
$500 billion for state governments and $375 billion for local governments
$175 billion to assist families with lost revenue from coronavirus outbreak or any other health care related expenses – this fund will also support boosting testing and contact tracing capabilities
$75 billion for housing assistance, including direct help with mortgage payments, property taxes, property insurance and utilities
$40 billion for tribal and territory relief
$25 billion for the Postal Service
$10 billion for small businesses
$10 billion to support increased demand for food stamps through SNAP
$3.6 billion to help plan for federal elections
$1.5 billion for broadband hotspots, especially to those struggling to get internet as schools and jobs go virtual
$5 million in technology advances for House of Representatives' offices, including 'House imaged laptops,' cell phones, Mobile Wi-Fi Hotspots and satellite bandwidth technologies
$6,000 checks for eligible American households

WHAT'S NOT IN THE RELIEF PACKAGE?
- More money for the Payment Protection Program to help small businesses pay their employees and keep their businesses during the pandemic
- Donald Trump's demanded payroll tax cuts.

**Richard** · May-12-20, 10:30 PM

That is the least of it

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/12/85473...navirus-relief

$100 billion for low-income rent support, $75 billion for a homeowner assistance fund and $100 million for the Violence Against Women Prevention and Prosecution Programs.
The bill includes some changes to programs that were approved in the CARES Act, including an expansion of the IRS payment program. Democrats want more generous benefits for families, including a $1,200 payment for each dependent. The CARES Act limits payments to $500 per child; adults or other dependents do not currently qualify. The bill provides up to $6,000 per household.

How to implement progressive policies via a virus verses winning an election.

Heck everything is in there that they were pushing for on the campaign trail,they do not even to win the election now.

**Lowell** · May-12-20, 10:37 PM

Oh my how the time flies and the money too. The only thing that kinda worked in the decade of this thread was the budget sequestration in 2013.

**Richard** · May-12-20, 10:50 PM

With the quality of printers these days,we could just eliminate the federal government and just print our own money.

I think at least 70% of the population has little interest in the national debt.

Even more interesting with tax cuts on the personal level it usually goes like this.

The President has done nothing for me,my paycheck is still the same as it was before.

Well did you get more back at the end of the year this year then last?

Yes,like $3000 more.

Okay now divide that 3000 by 52.

Roosevelt was the smart one,force everybody to turn in all of their gold or face prison,then after collecting all of the gold at one value,declare it doubled in value and instantly you have balanced the books.

**aj3647** · May-17-20, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/house-demo...193100797.html

The House Bill will not pass the Senate in its current form, but Mitch McConnell has already basically conceded that there WILL be another massive stimulus bill this summer. What's in it will depend on how negotiations go between the parties, but it's a safe bet we're talking trillions more.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mcconn...igh-likelihood

Pelosi will get some of that stuff off of your list in the next stimulus legislation, and McConnell will get some of the items off of his Big Business wish list. So everyone wins and everyone loses, because nothing matters.

**ABetterDetroit** · January-22-21, 07:17 PM

28 Trillion Debt the week of inauguration of the new President.

Trump single term debt rise highest ever.

GOP claiming they are fiscally responsible when the numerical facts prove they are the Party of Lies. Again.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

**Henry Whalley** · January-22-21, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ray1936

And now I"m 84, and I still don't give a shit.

Bring this back in ten more years, will ya?

Ditto Ray

**Gistok** · January-22-21, 08:16 PM

To update the famous quote of the late Illinois Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen....

"A trillion here and a trillion there, and pretty soon it adds up to big money.."

**Richard** · January-22-21, 09:25 PM

At this point no difference across the world,Germany is reporting its worst GDP sense WW2.

6 other countries are looking at their own Brexit from the EU,saying they can hardly afford to take care of their own.

$850 billion in student loan forgiveness
1.9 trillion in this rona virus package
11 million immigrants now eligible for food stamps,free medical and housing.

More on the way.

Tax and spend,the way it looks like now they are going to have to kick in another 4 trillion in corona virus relief and riot damage funding before it is all over with.

And that does not even include additional programs including having to figure out how to fund the general budget shortfall that will be hitting next.

They are going to have to change that saying to 3 trillion here and 3 trillion there .....