Street Cars in Detroit.

[olesarg]

How many of you remember the street cars that were a major means of transportation around Detroit in the 40's?

[Hermod]

When we went downtown, we took the "six-mile" bus from Whittier to Gratiot and McNichols and caught the Gratiot streetcar to go downtown. I grew up in Detroit in the 1940s and 1950s and the streetcars were still running. The bus system was pretty good then as well.

[birwood]

My late father, started out as Motorman with with the DSR-Detroit Street and Railways, in 1945 after WWII.
He had some interesting stories about the different routes, the people who rode the "Cars" daily, and the different "Car Barns" around the city, Coolidge, Wyoming, Gilbert, Lawton, Shoemaker, Highland Park, that could only service only specific routes, because of the way the track system was laid out. I do remember riding the "Grand River Car" to downtown with my Grandmother in the early 50's

[birwood]

Another story relating to the DSR and streetcars. I do recall my father telling us how that back in 1938 when his younger brother passed away, the DSR had a Funeral Car. That was what they used, to go from Grand River & Warren, St Leo's Church, to Mount Olivet cemertary at McNichols and Van Dyke, to instead of a funeral procession as we know today.

[p69rrh51]

How many of you remember the street cars that were a major means of transportation around Detroit in the 40's?

April 8th is the 56th anniversary of the end of trolley service in Detroit.

[Parkguy]

San Fransisco still runs an old PCC streetcar painted in Detroit "livery" colors.

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/1079/

[EastsideAl]

I did ride a Detroit streetcar, but it was in 1971 in Mexico City. I'm too young [[funny statement that) to have ever ridden one here in Detroit.

I still remember the nostalgic look and welling tears on my Dad's face when he climbed on the car in Mexico City. It still had some painted warnings in English on the inside that said "Detroit DSR" on them.

[casscorridor]

San Fransisco still runs an old PCC streetcar painted in Detroit "livery" colors.

http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/1079/

Although its sad that Detroit ripped out its streetcars over a half century ago, it is indeed nice to see SF using an old train car still painted in the original colors and even keeping the old DSR logo! How neat.

[p69rrh51]

Although its sad that Detroit ripped out its streetcars over a half century ago, it is indeed nice to see SF using an old train car still painted in the original colors and even keeping the old DSR logo! How neat.

Actually most of the rails of the system exist with the exception of the downtown area they are entombed under the road surfaces around the city. All that is needed is to dig them up. Also the most of the rails were all replaced shortly before the system was shut down and most likely are in good condition. I last saw a small part of the E. Jefferson rails a few years ago when the county was doing some work on the street.

[DetroitPlanner]

I used to ride the one on Washington Blvd back in the 1980's until I figured out it was faster to walk. Does that count?

[Hermod]

Actually most of the rails of the system exist with the exception of the downtown area they are entombed under the road surfaces around the city. All that is needed is to dig them up. Also the most of the rails were all replaced shortly before the system was shut down and most likely are in good condition. I last saw a small part of the E. Jefferson rails a few years ago when the county was doing some work on the street.

On January 19, 1964, DSR General Manager Nowicki wrote a report on the need to abandon the East Jefferson streetcar line and convert the route to "motor coaches. In the report, he noted that the tracks there were from 18 to 32 years old and most of it would need replacement in the next two to three years of use. Remember, the track structure includes more than just the rails. It also includes the roadbed and the ties.

[p69rrh51]

On January 19, 1964, DSR General Manager Nowicki wrote a report on the need to abandon the East Jefferson streetcar line and convert the route to "motor coaches. In the report, he noted that the tracks there were from 18 to 32 years old and most of it would need replacement in the next two to three years of use. Remember, the track structure includes more than just the rails. It also includes the roadbed and the ties.

I think you have your date wrong the trolleys ended service in 1956. And I have been involved with group that included several former DSR employees who have drummed it into me for the last 20 years about the condition of the rails, and that they all had been replaced shortly before operations subsided. You have to also remember many were all on GM's "payroll" and of course were trying to get rid of the streetcars however they could.

[Hermod]

I think you have your date wrong the trolleys ended service in 1956. And I have been involved with group that included several former DSR employees who have drummed it into me for the last 20 years about the condition of the rails, and that they all had been replaced shortly before operations subsided. You have to also remember many were all on GM's "payroll" and of course were trying to get rid of the streetcars however they could.

This was a report written on that date [[Jan 19, 1954). Motor coaches took over the East Jefferson line on Feb 7, 1954.

Michigan converted to motor coaches on Nov 11, 1954.

Gratiot converted on Mar 25, 1956.

Woodward converted on Apr 8, 1956, the very last of the streetcar lines.

1947, 1949, and 1951 were the big years for line conversion to motor coaches. Grand River route and the Crosstown route used "trolley buses" for a number of years and trolley buses were considered for the East jefferson line.

Ref: Detroit Street Railways: Vol II: City Lines 1922-1956 by Jack E. Schramm, William H. Henning, and Thomas J. Dworman; Bulletin 120, Central Electric Railfans' Association [[CERA), ISBN 0-915348-20-9

[Wheels]

Trolly buses were finished by the end of 1962;

Attachment 12987

[Parkguy]

The use trolley buses on some routes in Seattle even now, and I think they are preferable to diesel. Very quiet, no smoke. You can stand right next to the curb as one pulls away from a stop and there is just a low sound. My wife hates the wires, but I think they have a cool look.

I guess they are discussing whether to phase them out because they are going to have to replace the entire fleet in the next few years, but I guess they have superior torque and perform much better on the steep hills.

[p69rrh51]

This was a report written on that date [[Jan 19, 1954). Motor coaches took over the East Jefferson line on Feb 7, 1954.

Michigan converted to motor coaches on Nov 11, 1954.

Gratiot converted on Mar 25, 1956.

Woodward converted on Apr 8, 1956, the very last of the streetcar lines.

1947, 1949, and 1951 were the big years for line conversion to motor coaches. Grand River route and the Crosstown route used "trolley buses" for a number of years and trolley buses were considered for the East jefferson line.

Ref: Detroit Street Railways: Vol II: City Lines 1922-1956 by Jack E. Schramm, William H. Henning, and Thomas J. Dworman; Bulletin 120, Central Electric Railfans' Association [[CERA), ISBN 0-915348-20-9

All based on a tranportation study the city in its stupidity gave to GM to conduct!

[Mikeg]

All based on a tranportation study the city in its stupidity gave to GM to conduct!

It was City of Detroit traffic engineers that conducted that study - not GM [source]. In the immediate post-war period, commuters and shoppers continued to "vote with their car keys". Rush hour traffic on the radial arterials was horrendous. City traffic engineers experimented with ways to increase peak traffic flow along Grand River between W. Grand Boulevard and Livernois. They found that by replacing the streetcars with curbside bus service and using reversable traffic lanes in the center of the roadway where the streetcars had been, they could increase rush hour traffic flow by 40% and break the gridlock. This was the beginning of the end of streetcars in Detroit, and it was hastened by the mismanagement of the DSR and their inability to control their labor costs.

Here is a 1929 photo of relatives who worked at the DSR Baker Carhouse [[W. Vernonr at Livernois).

[antongast]

It was City of Detroit traffic engineers that constructed that study - not GM [source].

Traffic engineers ruin everything. They're worse than arsonists.

[p69rrh51]

It was City of Detroit traffic engineers that conducted that study - not GM [source]. In the immediate post-war period, commuters and shoppers continued to "vote with their car keys". Rush hour traffic on the radial arterials was horrendous. City traffic engineers experimented with ways to increase peak traffic flow along Grand River between W. Grand Boulevard and Livernois. They found that by replacing the streetcars with curbside bus service and using reversable traffic lanes in the center of the roadway where the streetcars had been, they could increase rush hour traffic flow by 40% and break the gridlock. This was the beginning of the end of streetcars in Detroit, and it was hastened by the mismanagement of the DSR and their inability to control their labor costs.

Here is a 1929 photo of relatives who worked at the DSR Baker Carhouse [[W. Vernonr at Livernois).

Yes most of that is correct, but GM was given money by the city and I will give the exact info when I have access to the infomation. For the moment here is a few things to think about.

During the period from 1936 to 1950, National City Lines and Pacific City Lines—with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Trucks, and the Federal Engineering Corporation—bought over 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities including Baltimore, Newark, Los Angeles, New York City, Oakland and San Diego and converted them into bus operation. In 1946, Edwin J. Quinby, a retired naval lieutenant commander, alerted transportation officials across the country to what he called "a careful, deliberately planned campaign to swindle you out of your most important and valuable public utilities—your Electric Railway System". GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies.

In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by NCL and other companies; they were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies. The verdicts were upheld on appeal in 1951.^{[n 9]} Bradford Snell summed up the controversial verdict, as the punishment so poorly matched the crime:

"The court imposed a sanction of $5,000 on GM. In addition, the jury convicted H.C. Grossman, who was then treasurer of GM. Grossman had played a key role in the motorization campaigns and had served as a director of Pacific City Lines when that company undertook the dismantlement of the $100 million Pacific Electric system. The court fined Grossman the magnanimous sum of $1."^{[n 10]}

According to Snell, GM's own testimony had shown that by the mid-1950s, GM and its agents had canvassed more than 1,000 electric railways and had motorized 90%—more than 900 systems.^{[n 11]} The struggling Pacific Electric Railway was purchased by Metropolitan Coach Lines in 1953.
Jesse Haugh, who operated Metropolitan Coach Lines and was a former executive of PCL, had previously purchased San Diego Electric Railway though a separate company in 1948. The remaining streetcars were converted to buses by 1950. The remains of the Pacific Electric Railway and of the Los Angeles Railway were taken into public ownership in 1958; all routes were converted to bus routes. Though Federal anti-trust action was taken against NCL, the damage was already done: Los Angeles was dominated by automobiles.^[12] Haugh sold the bus-based San Diego system to the city in 1966.^[13]


In 1970, Harvard Law student Robert Eldridge Hicks began working on the Ralph Nader Study Group Report on Land Use in California to report the wider conspiracy to dismantle U.S. streetcar systems. These allegations were first published in Politics of Land: Ralph Nader's Study Group Report on Land Use in California.^[14] In 1974, Snell testified before a United States Senate inquiry into the causes of the decline of the transit car systems in the U.S., highlighting the NCLines acquisitions as the primary cause.^{[n 12]} San Francisco mayor and antitrust attorney Joseph Alioto testified that "General Motors and the automobile industry generally exhibit a kind of monopoly evil", adding that GM "has carried on a deliberate concerted action with the oil companies and tire companies...for the purpose of destroying a vital form of competition; namely, electric rapid transit." Los Angeles mayor Tom Bradley also testified, saying that GM—through its subsidiaries [[namely PCL) "scrapped the Pacific Electric and Los Angeles streetcar systems leaving the electric train system totally destroyed

[Kathleen]

Don't forget to check out these terrific DYes Hall of Fame threads on the Detroit Streetcars....

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1134428567

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/...tml?1136574086

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/6790/60222.html

[shirlselects]

I remember riding the street car on Woodward but I'm not sure if they were on Hamilton and Trumbull. I know we took something on those streets. Just don't remember if it was a bus or streetcar. I remember the last cars on Woodward were pretty nice.

[Mikeg]

Yes most of that is correct, but GM was given money by the city and I will give the exact info when I have access to the infomation. For the moment here is a few things to think about......

What part of it is not correct?

And if "GM was given money by the city", what exactly would the city be expecting in return? If you are alleging underhanded actions by GM, shouldn't it be the other way around, since the city owned the DSR?

Finally, you do know that your cut & pasted "few things to think about" make absolutely no mention of the city of Detroit or the DSR?

[p69rrh51]

What part of it is not correct?

And if "GM was given money by the city", what exactly would the city be expecting in return? If you are alleging underhanded actions by GM, shouldn't it be the other way around, since the city owned the DSR?

Finally, you do know that your cut & pasted "few things to think about" make absolutely no mention of the city of Detroit or the DSR?

Interesting your copy and paste was sponsored by a rubber company?
As stated I do not have access to all the info at the moment, but yes GM was colluding to do away with the DSR which was one of the 900 plus systems they put out of business, and we got exactly what GM wanted, and paid for it which is really sad!!

More copy and paste!
By the time of the 1973 oil crisis, controversial new testimony was presented to a United States Senate inquiry into the causes of the decline of streetcar systems in the U.S. This alleged that there was a wider conspiracy—by GM in particular—to destroy effective public transport systems in order to increase sales of automobiles and that this was implemented with great effect to the detriment of many cities.
Only a small handful of U.S. cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on streetcar or trams, including Newark, New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Boston. There is now general agreement that GM and other companies were indeed actively involved in a largely unpublicized program to purchase many streetcar systems and convert them to buses, which they supplied. There is also acknowledgment that the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, urban sprawl, and general enthusiasm for the automobile played a role. One author recently summed the situation up stating "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit. Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions [sic] by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction.

Also a synopsis of the book Taken for a Ride by Jim Klein and Martha Olsen that I think you may want to read.

Why Does America Have the Worst Public Transit in the Industrialized World, and the Most Freeways?Taken for a Ride reveals the tragic and little known story of an auto and oil industry campaign, led by General Motors, to buy and dismantle streetcar lines. Across the nation, tracks were torn up, sometimes overnight, and diesel buses placed on city streets. The highway lobby then pushed through Congress a vast network of urban freeways that doubled the cost of the Interstates, fueled suburban development, increased auto dependence, and elicited passionate opposition. Seventeen city freeways were stopped by citizens who would become the leading edge of a new environmental movement. With investigative journalism, vintage archival footage and candid interviews, Taken for a Ride presents a revealing history of our cities in the 20th century that is also a meditation on corporate power, city form, citizen protest and the social and environmental implications of transportation.

[Mikeg]

Interesting your copy and paste was sponsored by a rubber company?
As stated I do not have access to all the info at the moment, but yes GM was colluding to do away with the DSR .......

You still haven't answered my question - what part of what I wrote is not correct?

Furthermore, you obviously did not read the web page that I linked to. It's a recent article on the Detroit Transit History web site that happens to use a 1946 US Royal Tire ad at the top of the page for an accompanying illustration.

Cut & paste away if you must, but -- yawn-- we've seen that stuff a hundred times here in previous DSR streetcar threads and none of it alleges, much less hints at, a conspiracy involving GM and the DSR.

[p69rrh51]

You still haven't answered my question - what part of what I wrote is not correct?

Furthermore, you obviously did not read the web page that I linked to. It's a recent article on the Detroit Transit History web site that happens to use a 1946 US Royal Tire ad at the top of the page for an accompanying illustration.

Cut & paste away if you must, but -- yawn-- we've seen that stuff a hundred times here in previous DSR streetcar threads and none of it alleges, much less hints at, a conspiracy involving GM and the DSR.

A link to an info with Detroit as a reference. Also last why would GM go through the effort of eliminating 900+ systems and leave streetcars in its own backyard?

http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm