America's Socialist Programs

[rb336]

More chest thumping about the "limits of the 10th ammendment" which are ambiguous at best, and often exclude things that actually ARE explicitly given to the federal government [[and upheld as such since the first Supreme Court)

[oladub]

Why isn't it well thought out? These are all things that are in question from those on the "tea bag" side. The guys you seem to support. It was a copy and paste job from one of the myriad websites availiable to read on the subject.

I already explained why it wasn't well thought out. It attacks Constitutional mandates requiring spending by the federal government, catagorizes import taxes as socialism, and ignores corporate welfare. Is "you guys' a variation of "you people" or just mental laziness when stereotyping is required?

rb chimes, "More chest thumping about the "limits of the 10th ammendment" which are ambiguous at best, and often exclude things that actually ARE explicitly given to the federal government [[and upheld as such since the first Supreme Court)

I understand your apprehension regarding enforcing the Tenth Amendment. There would be no point to the entire Democrat and much of the Republican Party if enforced at least at the national level. You are correct though that the Supreme Court also chooses to explain it away. If the Supreme Court similarly ruled that 2+2 could equal 5, unlike you, I would still be arguing it can only equal 4. I still don't understand your problem with having states run more of their own programs. I would think that a Canadian like single payer health care program run by a state would be superior to Obama's 'keep the insurance companies and attorneys rolling in money' health care program for instance.

Goose, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. I'm fine with most local services. As you say, they tend to benefit everyone. While a rich person might have a better house requiring fire and police protection, he/she is also paying proportionally more property tax for those services. If rich enough, he/she probably sends the kids off to private schools while still providing taxes for public schools like th Obamas and Clintons. Everyone benefits from the roads, libraries, etc. which are shared and in common. I live in Wisconsin and am pretty sure that Wisconsin can do a better job of administrating WIC, education, and scores of other services than the federal government despite out spendthrift governor. Ghettopalmetto, down in South Carolina, might rather have the federal government handle his money. I guess we get what we vote for.

[Goose]

Also, there is no mention of all the government run services at the state level including police, fire, libraries, public schools, parks, roads, etc. that are also 'socialist'. .

The differences between police and fire service and social programs like WIC/Bridge Cards are vast.....

Supposedly [[I know you can argue that the poor receive less service), police and fire service is provided equally to everyone, regardless of contribution into the system, a person living in Detroit in a $10,000 house can call the fire department and get service just as a person living in a $100,000 house in Detroit, similarly, public schools, despite what you are paying into the system, everyone is afforded equal access to public education [[I know, there will be the arguements that the poor recieve inferior services, but I'm giving this example on a base/theoretical level)

servicese such as WIC/Bridge, etc are qualification based, the people putting the most into the system at the time would never qualify to recieve the benefit of these services, thus they are excluded although they are paying in, thus the recipient is benefiting from the labor of the people paying into the system

there is no application or threshold of income that one must pass in order to receive police service, jobless people have the same access to public sidewalks as people making $500,000...

[Papasito]

Social policies can co-exist with individual freedom and liberty if done in moderation, and done at a level the population can afford based upon the amount of tax revenue paid by them.

The problem with America is the social programs exceed the tax revenue paid by the people.
Although most social policies are well intentioned and can better people's lives,
where do you stop? A nation should only go as far as what it can afford.

I have no problem with policies that can help the needy when they are within our means as a nation.

[gibran]

I am for social programs that work to help people..unfortunately we never really know what the tea party wants to do with these programs...all we get [[form their spokesperson) is cut taxes [[how do youthink that will effect the above programs) and get government out of our lives [[except when we need it)...really doesn't any one pay attention past the jingo,,,don't spend more than you have is ok..but sometimes it is called investments in the future of our societies....
'
what the tea baggers don't really understand that when a child suffers in Detroit we all suffer in the burbs..when schools fail society fails...and when social programs aren't in existence who pays..we all pay... you need boots before you pull yourself up from their straps.... we need real reform in the social services...but cutting programs is not the answer. We needed tehse programs for a legut reason..so reform them and invest in them ...all we get is less government no taxes...well it is not that simple..unless you want to institutionalize people again [[lot less costly)...lets get rid of the barriers and build bridges for the voiceless and underserved..then you will havemore tax payers...not less.

[Jimaz]

Attachment 7351
Don't deny who originated the verb in political context

[oladub]

Jimaz, You have shown that sign before. Again, some of those people, as stosh might say, are, or were, unaware of sexual connotations. I had never heard of that connotation myself until libs on the Daily Kos and Democrat Underground began all their snickering reflecting their hipness to this sexual practice. It follows that when liberals use the term, 'tea baggers', it is used in dirision much as klansmen use certain words to deride groups they dislike. You also assume, but do not know for sure, that the holder of the sign is indeed a tea partier rather than someone trying to make tea partiers look foolish.

Meanwhile I have supported single payer health care at the state level on this thread, a manifestation of socialism, and the concept sails over your collective corporatist heads.

[Stosh]

Jimaz, You have shown that sign before. Again, some of those people, as stosh might say, are, or were, unaware of sexual connotations. I had never heard of that connotation myself until libs on the Daily Kos and Democrat Underground began all their snickering reflecting their hipness to this sexual practice. It follows that when liberals use the term, 'tea baggers', it is used in dirision much as klansmen use certain words to deride groups they dislike. You also assume, but do not know for sure, that the holder of the sign is indeed a tea partier rather than someone trying to make tea partiers look foolish.

Meanwhile I have supported single payer health care at the state level on this thread, a manifestation of socialism, and the concept sails over your collective corporatist heads.

Actually I won't ever use the descriptor 'people' again in regards to those cretins.

Maybe alleycats may be a better term? Perhaps dolts or imbiciles? Maybe I'll just call them by what they are. Oladubs. Nuff said.

[oladub]

Stosh wrote, "Bullshit. The Tea Party has and always will be a republican construct. Ron Paul was duped. The backers of this shameless organization are Murdoch and the brothers Koch. Please don't post more of your lies without substantial proof otherwise, OK?"

Duped? How?

OK here's Proof: Some old campaign videos are still floating around dated 2007 including this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG_Ow...eature=related
Always? Then I've made it easy for you. All you have to do is show us some Republican use of the Tea Party theme preceeding 2007. Remember that Bush and the neo-cons were in charge prior to 2007 and that Republicans, for the most part, were supporting Bush's spending, annual debts, and wars like Democrats are today. So show us you stuff and bring out the pre-Ron Paul Republican Tea Party stuff.

"The Tea Party focuses on smaller government, fiscal responsibility, individual freedoms and upholding a conservative view of the Constitution."

"The libertarian theme of the "tea party" protest was previously used by Republican Congressman Ron Paul and his supporters as a fundraising event during the primaries of the 2008 presidential campaign to emphasize Paul's fiscal conservatism, which they later claimed laid the groundwork for the modern-day Tea Party movement, although many of them also claim their movement has been hijacked by neoconservatives." - lies from wikipedia

George Soros contributed the same amount to his causes last week as the Koch brothers, the liberals new bogeymen, but I don't see any point in whining about what George Soros chooses to do with his money or to blame Soros for all the Democrats who voted for war, high unemployment, and runaway federal debt.

[Stosh]

Duped? How?

OK here's Proof: Some old campaign videos are still floating around dated 2007 including this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG_Ow...eature=related
Always? Then I've made it easy for you. All you have to do is show us some Republican use of the Tea Party theme preceeding 2007. Remember that Bush and the neo-cons were in charge prior to 2007 and that Republicans, for the most part, were supporting Bush's spending, annual debts, and wars like Democrats are today. So show us you stuff and bring out the pre-Ron Paul Republican Tea Party stuff.

Yes, always. At least to mainstream America, anyway. Paul's little shitfest in 07' basically amounted to nothing more than a fundraiser for his run for president. And don't you know that the unfortunate symbolism that Ron created got the attention of the republican party, and the Koch and Murdoch empires? They know a fucking bonanza when they see it.

Paul's fundraiser has nothing to do with the direction this "movement" [[as in bowel) has taken, take your head out of your ass, please.

"The Tea Party focuses on smaller government, fiscal responsibility, individual freedoms and upholding a conservative view of the Constitution."

"The libertarian theme of the "tea party" protest was previously used by Republican Congressman Ron Paul and his supporters as a fundraising event during the primaries of the 2008 presidential campaign to emphasize Paul's fiscal conservatism, which they later claimed laid the groundwork for the modern-day Tea Party movement, although many of them also claim their movement has been hijacked by neoconservatives." - lies from wikipedia

George Soros contributed the same amount to his causes last week as the Koch brothers, the liberals new bogeymen, but I don't see any point in whining about what George Soros chooses to do with his money or to blame Soros for all the Democrats who voted for war, high unemployment, and runaway federal debt.

"Lies from wikipedia", inserted by you, tells me all I need to know about your character. The key phrase, last week, in relation to Soros and Koch, is quite the stretch of the point. The Koch brothers already planted the seed money long before last week.

[Jimaz]

That sign, signed by FreeRepubic.com, speaks and will continue to speak for itself. Let the reader beware of those who would deny FreeRepubic.com's intended meaning of their verb.

[Papasito]

The tea party movement was, in fact, partly a fiscally conservative rebellion against what Bush and Republicans had been doing.

It was pushed along by McCain being the nominee, another spend spend spend Republican, compounded by a sitting President who sees no end to what the Government can control, borrow, spend or do. Where I see a lot of good points the Tea Party movement is trying to make, they don't really have a strong, unified voice with a clear, concise message given by reputable, electable, and respectable leadership.

[Stosh]

Yes, the 29000 + supporters that plopped down their hard earned cash to support a failed ideologue whose sole message is What? We can do it cheaper? We can illegally skirt campaign finance laws to buy a blimp?

I think it would be a better thing if I were to go back in time and send Ayn Rand's girlhood crush over to her house so he could kill her before she could write her tripe. Far more proactive and doable than arguing with someone like you.

[oladub]

Yes, the 29000 + supporters that plopped down their hard earned cash to support a failed ideologue whose sole message is What? We can do it cheaper? We can illegally skirt campaign finance laws to buy a blimp?

I think it would be a better thing if I were to go back in time and send Ayn Rand's girlhood crush over to her house so he could kill her before she could write her tripe. Far more proactive and doable than arguing with someone like you.

Now we have a failing President who is managing to bring the country down lower than Bush. Congratulations on the change. If there was a sole message in the Paul campaign it would be to obey the Constitution. No blimp was purchase and a rented blimp did not break any taboo against free speech. Why mention Ayn Rand when it is far more trendy to mention the Koch brothers as the manifestation of all evil.

Gibran wrote, "you have to ask yourself what programs would these people keep? and how do they address inequalities in health-care, education and wealth? Aynn Rand should be replaced with Rawls... "

The federal government is effectively bankrupt. You have to ask yourself which federal programs should be dropped to afford the remainder of programs and which programs could and should be operated at the state and local level to improve their efficiency. Want some equality in wealth? Then create a shortage of US labor by escaping NAFTA and GATT while imposing some import taxes to lower income taxes. Only when labor is in short supply can it start demanding a larger share of the national economic pie. Begging for scraps from Obama isn't going to cut it.

Maxx, "We all should know how well this worked for education in the past when there was no or very little federal involvement with what states did about education, i.e., segregated schools, poor quality education in many southern states. "

That brought Mississippi education to the top of the heap, right? Lucky for Mississippi, California's blue state policies have driven California public education from near the best in the country to being a contender to challenge Mississippi, with all it's federal help, for the #50 spot.

[Stosh]

Now we have a failing President who is managing to bring the country down lower than Bush. Congratulations on the change. If there was a sole message in the Paul campaign it would be to obey the Constitution. No blimp was purchase and a rented blimp did not break any taboo against free speech. Why mention Ayn Rand when it is far more trendy to mention the Koch brothers as the manifestation of all evil.

The reason he is "failing" is the incessant drumbeat of the idealogues such as yourself that have a vested interest in his failure. I'll bet Ayn has just as much culpability in the retarded politics of the Libertarian and Republican party as Koch does. Which is plenty.

The federal government is effectively bankrupt. You have to ask yourself which federal programs should be dropped to afford the remainder of programs and which programs could and should be operated at the state and local level to improve their efficiency. Want some equality in wealth? Then create a shortage of US labor by escaping NAFTA and GATT while imposing some import taxes to lower income taxes. Only when labor is in short supply can it start demanding a larger share of the national economic pie. Begging for scraps from Obama isn't going to cut it.

He can't pass the needed measures and you know it, due to obstructionism in the House and Senate. Quit playing games and acting stupid, please.

That brought Mississippi education to the top of the heap, right? Lucky for Mississippi, California's blue state policies have driven California public education from near the best in the country to being a contender to challenge Mississippi, with all it's federal help, for the #50 spot.

You can't fix stupid, as some have said.

[ghettopalmetto]

That brought Mississippi education to the top of the heap, right? Lucky for Mississippi, California's blue state policies have driven California public education from near the best in the country to being a contender to challenge Mississippi, with all it's federal help, for the #50 spot.

So how do you account for Connecticut perennially having the best educaton system in the nation? Must be the low taxes, eh?

[oladub]

So how do you account for Connecticut perennially having the best educaton system in the nation? Must be the low taxes, eh?

Connecticut and California both have high taxes as is their right under the 10th Amendment. Maybe Connecticut has better educational results because 83% of Connecticut families earn more than the national average income. Still, California has higher average income and taxes than most red states but almost all red states eclipse California's educational outcomes despite having lower taxes.

[mjs]

I agree with Oladub on all he is saying. Most of the stuff on the first list shouldn't be eliminated altogether, but they should be moved to the states to satisfy the Tenth Amendment. Better efficiency and less buying of lawmakers. Sure, some of it like bank welfare can be eliminated altogether. The real question of the list is what are you willing to pay more in taxes to keep. We're spending more than we make. At some point, we need to either spend less or make more and the longer we try to ignore the question, the more it harms us and the harder it is to fix.

It makes me shake my head to see how the Dems are handling this whole mess. What moron came up with the finger pointing cry-baby "they ran the bus into the ditch" bit? Put Carville back in charge you idiots. Put your egos in check and make broad use of Bill Clinton's silver tongue.

Message Dems should be selling to hold their base and pick-up independants including tea-partiers is one of fiscal responsibility with humility and blunt honesty: We all got caught up in the irrational exuberance, but unlike republicans who got the seats in this game of musical chairs, dems are willing to help those that got hurt the most by our joint mistakes. We're keeping the programs Americans need to get through hard times such as this and we're willing to raise taxes to do it. We won't be raising taxes until the economy is in its inevitable recovery, but we must act to ensure the programs America needs today will be there tomorrow by doing the responsible action of funding them fully.

Take on tax and spend as a badge of honor and say it sure beats the conservative's cut and spend model.

[ghettopalmetto]

Connecticut and California both have high taxes as is their right under the 10th Amendment. Maybe Connecticut has better educational results because 83% of Connecticut families earn more than the national average income. Still, California has higher average income and taxes than most red states but almost all red states eclipse California's educational outcomes despite having lower taxes.

You've never lived in the South, have you?

[gibran]

if the tea party was just a fiscally Conservative movement it would be one thing...but they are the party of choice for little dixie and fearful older people that hang on every word people like Beck/Palin et al launch as fact... They have been co-opt then if all they were concerned w/fiscal responsibility...but now they are birthers, racists and anti-humanists... i would tend to listen if they were just Ron Pualites...some of the concepts he put forth are good...the rest is poppycock ...

you have to ask yourself what programs would these people keep? and how do they address inequalities in health-care, education and wealth? Aynn Rand should be replaced with Rawls...

[maxx]

oladub: I would think that a Canadian like single payer health care program run by a state would be superior to Obama's 'keep the insurance companies and attorneys rolling in money' health care program for instance.

We all should know how well this worked for education in the past when there was no or very little federal involvement with what states did about education, i.e., segregated schools, poor quality education in many southern states.

[maxx]

The CA leg. should raise the number of signatures required for an initiative. And the voters should learn about the "people's veto".

[maxx]

http://exiledonline.com/americas-dea...re-bolsheviks/
"...the very same Wall Street bankers who conned $23 trillion out of America’s wealth is now going to use some of that play money to place bets on when we Americans will die—and the sooner we die, the more billions in E-Z profits Wall Street will earn..."

[maxx]

Steve Rattner explains to Colbert how the evil gov. saved the car industry and the consequences of not doing so.The interview starts around 15.
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-ep...steven-rattner

[maxx]

The number of nonEnglish-speaking children in CA schools may have something to do with the ed. outcomes.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=106657563
"..."Three-hundred thousand illegal immigrant children in public schools, and they keep coming. The cost: $1.5 billion a year," the announcer says..."

So what's Detroit's excuse?