Where were you during the 1967 Detroit Riot?

**English** · July-28-10, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

That is an interesting analogy English. Traveling through the South as a kid, I noticed you could buy a Civil War hats and swords everywhere. But in the North there was nothing. I always thought this was because the losing side has a hard time forgetting about a war because they lost. The winning side is vindicated and can move on. Maybe, in Detroit, no one can forget the riot because no one won.

Very well put.

And Susan, I'm definitely going to add your novel to my book collection. Can't wait to read it.

**Kathleen** · July-28-10, 07:26 AM

Another novel that is set in Detroit during the late 1960s and has scenes of the Detroit riot is Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides. Pulitzer Prize winner!

FYI...Susan's novel Grand River and Joy was picked by the U-M Honors Program for their 2010 Honors First-Year Book:
http://www.ii.umich.edu/umich/v/inde...004701010aRCRD

**Corn.Bot** · July-27-10, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

Maybe, in Detroit, no one can forget the riot because no one won.

Succintly put and possibly exactly right.

I wish we could know why, and how, Detroit is this way. We were not the first, only, or last city to deal with race riots, corruption, citizen flight, and poor leadership. Why do we seem to be the one city that cannot seem to slow, much less stop, the severe downward spiral that continues?

Stosh · July-27-10, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Corn.Bot

Succintly put and possibly exactly right.

I wish we could know why, and how, Detroit is this way. We were not the first, only, or last city to deal with race riots, corruption, citizen flight, and poor leadership. Why do we seem to be the one city that cannot seem to slow, much less stop, the severe downward spiral that continues?

I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the people the city and surrounding areas attracted in the glory days of the auto industry as well as the wartime industrial buildup. People moved to the "arsenal of democracy" due to the large number of unskilled jobs. The tendency of these jobs being filled by, for the most part, uneducated workers could explain a lot.

The workers from the South brought their prejudices with them, both black and white. The lack of education could explain a little bit of the ignorance and racism inherent in both Black and White Detroiters. This, plus the distrust and racism of the vast amount of immigrant laborers that were still present up to the 1970's added a lot to the problem.

A lot of people felt betrayed by the city due to the increase in crime and the perception of the city turning a blind eye to the underlying issues behind it. The fleeing Detroiters, first White, and now Black and Brown, are all concerned about preserving their way of life, their families.

The sniping behind the comments and backbiting in the region is all about control, and power, naturally. There's no lack of ignorance in this region, still. Habits and values ingrained in generations continue to be perpetuated, whether you think so or not. I think that the only way to bust this cycle is to attract other people to the area. Maybe by an infusion of new blood these ingrained tendencies will be quelled once and for all.

**laurin** · July-27-10, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the people the city and surrounding areas attracted in the glory days of the auto industry as well as the wartime industrial buildup. People moved to the "arsenal of democracy" due to the large number of unskilled jobs. The tendency of these jobs being filled by, for the most part, uneducated workers could explain a lot.

The workers from the South brought their prejudices with them, both black and white. The lack of education could explain a little bit of the ignorance and racism inherent in both Black and White Detroiters. This, plus the distrust and racism of the vast amount of immigrant laborers that were still present up to the 1970's added a lot to the problem.

A lot of people felt betrayed by the city due to the increase in crime and the perception of the city turning a blind eye to the underlying issues behind it. The fleeing Detroiters, first White, and now Black and Brown, are all concerned about preserving their way of life, their families.

The sniping behind the comments and backbiting in the region is all about control, and power, naturally. There's no lack of ignorance in this region, still. Habits and values ingrained in generations continue to be perpetuated, whether you think so or not. I think that the only way to bust this cycle is to attract other people to the area. Maybe by an infusion of new blood these ingrained tendencies will be quelled once and for all.

I think this is so important. We have a hard time attracting and keeping new blood to region and without it we seem to stay in the same cycle.

**Hermod** · July-27-10, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the people the city and surrounding areas attracted in the glory days of the auto industry as well as the wartime industrial buildup. People moved to the "arsenal of democracy" due to the large number of unskilled jobs. The tendency of these jobs being filled by, for the most part, uneducated workers could explain a lot.

The workers from the South brought their prejudices with them, both black and white. The lack of education could explain a little bit of the ignorance and racism inherent in both Black and White Detroiters. This, plus the distrust and racism of the vast amount of immigrant laborers that were still present up to the 1970's added a lot to the problem.

The majority of whites in Detroit in 1950 were not uneducated migrants from the south. The majority of them were European immigrants and their descendants who had come to the US during the period 1880 to 1930 plus the postwar DPs from Europe. These people did not "bring their prejudices with them" when they came to Detroit.

Stosh · July-27-10, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The majority of whites in Detroit in 1950 were not uneducated migrants from the south. The majority of them were European immigrants and their descendants who had come to the US during the period 1880 to 1930 plus the postwar DPs from Europe. These people did not "bring their prejudices with them" when they came to Detroit.

I never said that the southerners were a majority, did I? Please reread the above statement by me. And BTW, being an offspring of one of those immigrant families, allow me to say that you are completely and totally wrong. Prejudices are easy. Fear of the unfamiliar, the strange, the foreign, the "other" are easy. You just have to be opposed to someone that is NOT LIKE YOU.

Among the uneducated, these fears are easily played on by people looking to profit. Remember the real estate block busters that paid black people to walk up and down the streets in white neighborhoods, scaring the whites into selling at a loss? Sometimes that's all it took to set off the blockbusting. Think that's the sign of intelligence?

**kryptonite** · July-28-10, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The majority of whites in Detroit in 1950 were not uneducated migrants from the south. The majority of them were European immigrants and their descendants who had come to the US during the period 1880 to 1930 plus the postwar DPs from Europe. These people did not "bring their prejudices with them" when they came to Detroit.

Thanks for that post. my entire family is from the deep South and most of them worked in the Detroit factories in the 50's and 60's. They were extremely poor and few had more than a few years of school. They worked with black people and never said anything negative. However, my relatives encountered a great deal of anti-southern sentiment. Racism was heavily entrenched in Detroit before the Appalachian migration after WWII. Plus, southern whites and Europeans encountered their share of discrimination.

And my white southern relatives stayed in Detroit until long after the riots before moving to the suburbs.

The original posting was very unfair to southern whites and quite biased, thanks for defending them against such a derogatory blanket statement. Nobody brought racism here to Detroit. Few people are migrating here any longer and there is still plenty of racism and bias against all groups.

Stosh · July-28-10, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by kryptonite

Thanks for that post. my entire family is from the deep South and most of them worked in the Detroit factories in the 50's and 60's. They were extremely poor and few had more than a few years of school. They worked with black people and never said anything negative. However, my relatives encountered a great deal of anti-southern sentiment. Racism was heavily entrenched in Detroit before the Appalachian migration after WWII. Plus, southern whites and Europeans encountered their share of discrimination.

And my white southern relatives stayed in Detroit until long after the riots before moving to the suburbs.

The original posting was very unfair to southern whites and quite biased, thanks for defending them against such a derogatory blanket statement. Nobody brought racism here to Detroit. Few people are migrating here any longer and there is still plenty of racism and bias against all groups.

There are always exceptions to everything. Your family is no different. They may not have voiced their predjudices, but they were there. Everyone has them.

Let me reiterate. EVERYONE.

Lots of people stayed after the riots. What makes your family so different?

Oh, not the southern whites, no.. handwringing at it's finest. I implicate everyone, and you seem to cherrypick what you want. Classic...

**Detroit Stylin** · July-28-10, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The majority of whites in Detroit in 1950 were not uneducated migrants from the south. The majority of them were European immigrants and their descendants who had come to the US during the period 1880 to 1930 plus the postwar DPs from Europe. These people did not "bring their prejudices with them" when they came to Detroit.

Now thats a bunch of Bull. When the "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks from the rurals areas of the south came up to Detroit for the plentiful factory jobs, law enforcement agencies [[in particular DPD) INTENTIONALLY reached out to white southern lawmen becuase they knew how to deal "with them". Read it in the the Detroit 300th anniversary book for yourself. So yes there was very much a large prescence of Southern Whites PRIOR to the 50's and whole lot of their prejudices and hatred that came with them...

**Detroitnerd** · July-28-10, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Now thats a bunch of Bull. When the "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks from the rurals areas of the south came up to Detroit for the plentiful factory jobs, law enforcement agencies [[in particular DPD) INTENTIONALLY reached out to white southern lawmen becuase they knew how to deal "with them". Read it in the the Detroit 300th anniversary book for yourself. So yes there was very much a large prescence of Southern Whites PRIOR to the 50's and whole lot of their prejudices and hatred that came with them...

Well, to be fair, what Hermod says is partly true. Yes, there was a HUGE immigration from the South to Detroit in the early 1940s. As some have observed, that was the last "boom" that finished off the old Detroit as it was known. And, yes, many Southerners came up here with either dreams of freedom or the same-old racism. All of that is true.

But they were in the minority.

**Hermod** · July-28-10, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Now thats a bunch of Bull. When the "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks from the rurals areas of the south came up to Detroit for the plentiful factory jobs, law enforcement agencies [[in particular DPD) INTENTIONALLY reached out to white southern lawmen becuase they knew how to deal "with them". Read it in the the Detroit 300th anniversary book for yourself. So yes there was very much a large prescence of Southern Whites PRIOR to the 50's and whole lot of their prejudices and hatred that came with them...

When I was going to school in Detroit [[1945-1954), southern whites were extremely rare. My classmates all had names like Gruebner, Salzwadel, Fleisher, Wyck, Brissom, Kuhn, Bernhardt, Oleczak, Jung, Wetzelberg, Kramer, Bohr, Gustafson, Schick, Steffan, Hernalsteen, etc. I can remember one kid coming into the school who got called "Hillbilly" by the other kids.

**jfk** · July-27-10, 01:14 PM

I was all of 12 when the riots happened. My Dad had a friend who lived in the first house south of 8 mile on Lauder, across from the 8 mile armory. He had a built in pool and because my dad couldn't go to work he decided it would be a good day to go swimming. The family went over around 1pm on Monday and what I remember the most was all of the thick black smoke billowing in the sky towards the southeast. This friend also had a sun deck by the pool and as we sat up there around 3pm we saw the parade of police cars,tanks, jeeps with machine guns,and army trucks coming out of the armory and head east on 8 mile towards Woodward. Needless to say we didn't stay past dark. The next night my Dad got a call from the Detroit Police telling him he needed to meet them at the Lumber yard [[Roger Hanson Lumber on Myers at the railroad tracks) because the alarm was going off. He snatched up my oldest brother and a shotgun and headed down Schoolcraft [[ we lived in Redford Twsp) to meet them.Upon arrival the DPD was there and they looked over the property and then told him to just leave the alarm off because if was going to get burned an alarm wasn't going to help. I also remeber Redford Police were running 4 man cruisers during the riots in case the "trouble makers" decided to come into the Twsp.

**kryptonite** · July-27-10, 02:15 PM

I remember the riots fairly well. We had moved to Ohio and at the end of the rioting we visited relatives in the Plymouth/Greenfield area. There had been no rioting in their area, so we drove down Grand River. Some of the buildings were still burning and I believe there were still National Guard vehicles. It was sad seeing the look on people's faces, very despairing.

**jfk** · July-27-10, 08:18 PM

If you got a half hour watch this http://vimeo.com/5337314

**carlscomputers** · July-28-10, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by jfk

If you got a half hour watch this http://vimeo.com/5337314

Thank You so Much jfk! That video really hit home, the scenes with the woman driving down the street with her pistol in hand, the wounded being loaded onto stretchers, the raging gun battle, the Funeral processions & the reporters commentary at the end... I wish I personally knew some film makers that could do a big budget movie. I know many would say that it would open old wounds, but I feel the whole story, whatever it may be, needs to be told!

**gazhekwe** · July-27-10, 08:40 PM

If they didn't bring them, they sure found them when they got here. Jim Crow was alive and well in those days.

**mikefmich** · July-27-10, 11:19 PM

This is easy....I was having band practice Sunday afternoon at Gunston & Gratiot. One of that small handful of events of the 60's that we remember exactly where we were when hearing of it. My folks came by the house to make sure I knew about the curfew, hell I didn't know about the riot going on...yet.

My dad worked for MichCon at the time in service management....he saw a lot, and related a lot.

My cousins wife was a nurse at Det. Rec. Hospital. That figure of 40-something deaths during the riot I've always questioned for many reasons besides her.

Two years later I was in the Natl. Guard unit out of the artillery armory that spent the riots on the street. There was very little turn over between 1967 & 1969....heard a lot of stories. More wondering about the "official" victim tally.

Two yrs later dad was on the New Detroit committee, became one of the longest serving reps. in that position.

Here we are 43 yrs later....where do we go now?

**reddog289** · July-28-10, 12:09 AM

To put in my two cents, I grew up hearing from my parents , grandparents, Uncles, Co workers. About July 1967. I have never heard from the mouth of an Afro/American their thoughts on this time. I have only heard the same story repeated by members of my family and friends on why Detroit was never the same after those days 43 years ago.The only thing I have really gotten out of this is that them N#######,s wrecked Detroit and and Colman Young killed it off.But you know as I grow older, I see places in the neighborhoods I traveled as a youngster in both Detroit and its neighboring cities and they both have gotten "long of tooth".
Growing up after the riots I have heard, and witnessed alot.As my cousin put it when I was a teen when we visited our Grandmother around 7/Evergreen. He was going to Eastern at the time.The middle class lived here at one time, then the blacks moved in. Next the Hillbillies like you will come.Well 20 years later I am here He is upstate.I am not down at Ever /7 or Old Redford, But none the less I miss going to the Dairy Queen at 7mi & Pierson or the one at Joy rd &Stahalen .
No one wants to deal with what happened 43 yrs ago again.White, Black or whomever.

**gazhekwe** · July-28-10, 10:04 AM

Susan Messer: Even rumors that a school may be dangerous or substandard can scare parents away.

In my experience in different neighborhoods in two different cities, that is the biggest catalyst. One person leaves for whatever reason, and gives the excuse that the school is "going down" so they won't look like a racist. The rumor takes hold and flies, and all the parents start packing to move. Last to go are the elders who have seen their community dissolve.

**English** · July-28-10, 02:01 PM

I don't understand why there were such fears about school desegregation in the North, especially in metro Detroit. My grandfather attended integrated Detroit schools in the 1920s and early 1930s, and graduated from Cass Tech at age 16. [[Of course, the guidance counselors discouraged him from attending a four year college, but he enrolled in U of D anyway.) I figured from my relatives and their friends' stories that there were always black kids in majority white city schools.

Seriously, what do people think that we're going to do to them? Do folks think that their K-12 education or their university degree is devalued just by the very presence of black folks? I am being serious -- one of my qualifying exams was about school segregation in the South and how it influenced curriculum development, so I have read a ton about this topic. Few things about our nation confuse me more. I understand the economic incentive behind slavery, and the resentment that fueled Jim Crow and de jure segregation, but the Greatest Gen's behavior post-Brown was inexcusable.

On a raw and visceral human level, I don't get it. Maybe I never will. From my perspective, there is no other explanation for decisions like Milliken v. Bradley, which declawed Brown.

Anyway. Back to the riots.

**Hermod** · July-28-10, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by English

I figured from my relatives and their friends' stories that there were always black kids in majority white city schools.

No, I went to three schools in Detroit from 1944 to 1954 and never went to school with a black kid. The only "non-whites" in the schools were a handful of Maronite Christian Lebanese. I never went to school with a black kid till we moved to Rochester and I went to Rochester High School 1954-1957.

The janitors and lunch room staffs in the schools I went to were all white.

It was called de facto segregation.

Stosh · July-28-10, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

No, I went to three schools in Detroit from 1944 to 1954 and never went to school with a black kid. The only "non-whites" in the schools were a handful of Maronite Christian Lebanese. I never went to school with a black kid till we moved to Rochester and I went to Rochester High School 1954-1957.

The janitors and lunch room staffs in the schools I went to were all white.

It was called de facto segregation.

Christ. No wonder you never encountered any kind of racism. 1954? Really? Sheesh.

That's like comparing Detroit today to the 1920's for what it's worth.

Here's an interesting site:
http://faculty.washington.edu/gregor...ora/photos.htm

Also this one:
http://www.bentley.umich.edu/researc...ration/ch1.php

**English** · July-28-10, 04:28 PM

Interesting hearing your experiences, Hermod. My grandfather was a generation older than you, and his folks were on the leading edge of the northern migration. He was a founding member of the Brewster Old Timers. The legendary Brewster Rec Center opened when he was 13 years old:

http://detroit1701.org/Brewster-Wheeler%20Center.htm

Reading that page makes me really miss my granddad. He was truly one of the best people I knew.

**gazhekwe** · July-28-10, 02:46 PM

I don't have a clue about that, but I saw it happen more than once. I came from an integrated school up north, where I was among the minority group. When I came to Detroit, I first went to Cody, where I was extremely uncomfortable, then switched to Mackenzie which I really liked. The discussion was always somewhere around, 25% still OK, 35% time to watch out, 45% the school's going down. Mind you, it was always stated that the academic standards were going down, but I somehow didn't read it that way. Still, I had a wonderful time at Mack, but my brother and sister who followed me there reported a completely different, hostile experience. So I guess, in some cases, the prophecy came true.

Adding this: The schools did make a difference. I subsequently entered a career in civil rights, where, into the 70s, I found employers who discarded apps from people who listed schools like Mackenzie or Central or Northwestern. Academic standards? Not so much, I think.