Ford Hiring Based On Race

[LadyCeoDetroit]

In 2001, Ford was sued over racial discrimination in hiring quotas. They were sued by a WHITE man. Now if this type of thing happens to WHITE men what makes you think this is impossible to happen for BLACK men? Although the issue with his lawsuit is slightly different than the issue at hand, the fact that this lawsuit exists is PROOF that someone realizes that companies discriminate based on race including FORD. Black men are not exempt. Although the man was white who filed the lawsuit, it can go both ways.

Link:
http://hr.blr.com/newsAlternate.aspx...pic=25&id=7471

[guito13]

The issue at hand is that they were hiring "30 white guys and 15 black guys". Race shouldn't be a factor. I don't believe in racism against any race including against white people.

And wasn't affirmative action already eliminated in Michigan?

AA was eliminated for certain public entities and instutitions [[i.e. colleges) but not in the private sector.

[Johnlodge]

[stromberg2]

Oh goody, another race based topic.

Stromberg2

[gazhekwe]

I spent my career working in civil rights, investigating complaints and helping employers develop affirmative action plans. Fred Garvin is essentially correct, the key to affirmative action is in affirmative recruitment, to increase the number of minority applicants to enable the employer to be able to choose more well qualified minority applicants. The goal is to bring the workforce into a similar profile as the surrounding community. Ford plants would fall into the general tri-county profile rather than Detroit proper. If the workforce was seriously out of compliance, a greater number of minority hires would be preferred.
Hiring is expected to be based upon qualifications. In case of affirmative hiring, if we have two equally qualified applicants, one white and one black, and we are out of compliance, we need to give the weight to the black applicant. If we are not out of compliance and the parties are equally qualified, we could hire either one.

That all being said, if the situation described by ceo and her son is true, no one has any standing to file except the applicants who may or may not have been unfairly denied hire.

To investigate such a complaint, one would need to get the 90 day applications and hiring records for each plant and compare qualifications, hiring criteria and of course, each applicant's and each hiree's race and probably gender, age and ethnicity. In my experience, Ford is not a monolith, each plant and indeed each foreman has autonomy in the hiring process. So, each hiring entity's results would have to be reviewed and compared against the general policies.

In some cases, the investigation would stop if the company was in compliance, regardless of how they got there. On the other hand, I have continued investigations when the company was in compliance to find out if they denied a black person hire because they had "enough" black employees and didn't want to overbalance the workforce. The key to determining discrimination in such a case is that the white person hired is LESS qualified.


If you got through all that I wrote above, you can see that it isn't a cut and dried yes or no situation when it comes to determination a violation of civil rights law.

[LDoolan]

The entire topic is based strictly on heresay and for all we know he may have just been blowing smoke to get people worked up. That does happen from time to time. Far as I know there's no 'racial quotas' when it comes to hiring at Ford.

Why would you go to the NAACP instead of the Labor board? [[If there's really an issue, for all we know she/they could be a GM troll.)

[Mikeg]

It's obvious nobody on this thread [[other than "gazhekwe") has ever been involved in making a hiring decision at one of the Detroit automakers. Their Human Resource [[HR) departments keep close tabs on the race and gender percentages of their current workers in each job description/classification. When a manager wants to make a hiring decision, it can be blocked by HR if the local population in that job classification has an under-representation of minorities and the selected candidate doesn't help move the needle closer to the desired balance that HR feels is defensible to the EEOC or in court. Once blocked, that open position can't be filled until the manager finds a suitable candidate and HR signs off on the hiring decision. The desired balance has nothing to do with the race and gender statistics of the group of people who happened to apply for the open position, rather it is based on the make up of the regional labor pool of folks who possess the experience, education and/or skill sets for that type of job classification.

[LadyCeoDetroit]

This is the kind of reply I was hoping for. I am very thankful that you provided me with an educated and constructive response to the matter at hand as apposed to simply attacking me like most here. Regards to you. I thoroughly understand now. It still seems pretty complicated and I hate the fact that race has to be a factor at all but what can you do?!

I spent my career working in civil rights, investigating complaints and helping employers develop affirmative action plans. Fred Garvin is essentially correct, the key to affirmative action is in affirmative recruitment, to increase the number of minority applicants to enable the employer to be able to choose more well qualified minority applicants. The goal is to bring the workforce into a similar profile as the surrounding community. Ford plants would fall into the general tri-county profile rather than Detroit proper. If the workforce was seriously out of compliance, a greater number of minority hires would be preferred.
Hiring is expected to be based upon qualifications. In case of affirmative hiring, if we have two equally qualified applicants, one white and one black, and we are out of compliance, we need to give the weight to the black applicant. If we are not out of compliance and the parties are equally qualified, we could hire either one.

That all being said, if the situation described by ceo and her son is true, no one has any standing to file except the applicants who may or may not have been unfairly denied hire.

To investigate such a complaint, one would need to get the 90 day applications and hiring records for each plant and compare qualifications, hiring criteria and of course, each applicant's and each hiree's race and probably gender, age and ethnicity. In my experience, Ford is not a monolith, each plant and indeed each foreman has autonomy in the hiring process. So, each hiring entity's results would have to be reviewed and compared against the general policies.

In some cases, the investigation would stop if the company was in compliance, regardless of how they got there. On the other hand, I have continued investigations when the company was in compliance to find out if they denied a black person hire because they had "enough" black employees and didn't want to overbalance the workforce. The key to determining discrimination in such a case is that the white person hired is LESS qualified.


If you got through all that I wrote above, you can see that it isn't a cut and dried yes or no situation when it comes to determination a violation of civil rights law.

[9mile&seneca]

What about all this salesman bashing? I resent the implication that all salesmen lie.I've worked in sales and I have told something up to 5 different ways to keep from lying about it.

[gazhekwe]

You're welcome, ladyceo. I appreciate your concern, as discrimination in hiring is an insidiously evil factor that ends up keeping people of certain groups at the lower end of the economic range. Its historic impact is vast, and any continuance of it should indeed be unwelcome in the extreme.

[lilpup]

I'm surprised Ford would be hiring newbies in the plants instead of calling back those laid off.

[artds]

I said I meant Metro Detroit. I also apologized that I did not say that initially. METRO DETROIT PEOPLE. I repeat METRO DETROIT.

The only problem is, METRO DETROIT is not 80% black, and you specifically referred to whatever bounded area you were talking about as being 80% black. So

[rsa.313]

FORD = First On Race Day

[[sorry, couldn't help it.)

[9mile&seneca]

Win on Sunday. Sell on Monday.

[artds]

the key to affirmative action is in affirmative recruitment, to increase the number of minority applicants to enable the employer to be able to choose more well qualified minority applicants. The goal is to bring the workforce into a similar profile as the surrounding community. Ford plants would fall into the general tri-county profile rather than Detroit proper. If the workforce was seriously out of compliance, a greater number of minority hires would be preferred.
Hiring is expected to be based upon qualifications. In case of affirmative hiring, if we have two equally qualified applicants, one white and one black, and we are out of compliance, we need to give the weight to the black applicant. If we are not out of compliance and the parties are equally qualified, we could hire either one.

See! All is merry! Those black applicants who were denied employment at Ford have nothing to worry about, since there are a sufficient number of other black workers employed by Ford to make up for the fact that the denied applicants won't be receiving any benefit! Hooray!

"Bad news, honey. I didn't get the job. In fact, they wouldn't even consider me. But don't worry! The company employs enough other _________ people to make up for it!"

[gazhekwe]

That is a sad fact, affirmative action can be interpreted that way. Discrimination is proven ONLY when a more qualified minority applicant is denied hire while a LESS qualified white applicant is hired [[or vice versa). Numbers alone do not prove discrimination. Of course, some applicants will be denied hire unless the number of qualified applicants equals the number of openings.

We have no way of knowing how many applicants for each job, which of the applicants were qualified, which applicants were considered for each job, and how many of each race were hired for each job, and how many of each race were denied hire, and the relative qualifications of each as pertained to each job. All we have is a raw alleged total number of hires and a breakdown by race which was the alleged goal, but maybe not the actual result.

[LadyCeoDetroit]

I said Detroit is 80% black. Not Metro Detroit. However I did fail to mention in the beginning that people from all counties in Metro Detroit would apply for these positions. I think that is where the disconnect came into play. And to you too...lol. [[what are we like 2?!)

The only problem is, METRO DETROIT is not 80% black, and you specifically referred to whatever bounded area you were talking about as being 80% black. So

[PlymouthRes]

Having worked at Ford for a total of over 20 years, I find it kind of funny that this thread has gone as far as it has without someone stepping up and mentioning some of the most obvious facts. The very first fact I would like to mention is that it is VERY apparent that NONE of you have ever experienced their hiring practises OR their hiring quota application. They are very meticulous to follow, jot and tittle, the letter of the law in regard to hiring quotas [[AA, EOE, NLRB, etc.). Not to mention, any hiring done involving union members goes through yet another level of scrutiny with them, and often, the result of which made me shake my head sometimes.

Is Ford perfect? No. There are many others that just plain suck, too, but Ford does a pretty good job of staying as close to center as I have ever seen.

As for your conversation with this person you had only just met and were buying a car from, who claimed to be "in the know" by a "friend of a friend", I can't believe that you would have somehow thought that the situation he was explaining to you had any shred of reality associated with it at all, and you didn't run from him when he started his line of lies. You really can't expect people out there that do have a clue to believe this, do you? If so, you are beyond niave and need some "soak time", which hopefully will allow your logic to kick in and sort these kind of things out for yourself before you post FOR THE FIRST TIME on a new internet forum asking people for thier "thoughts" on the matter.

Here is my thinking, and it comes from a pretty solid 15 year personal relationship with two ladies I had the pleasure to serve on the Diversity Committee and the Personnel Relations committees with while I was direct at Ford. Both ladies, by the way, are fine upstanding BLACK women. I only emphasize the point of their race because it serves a point here. The fact is, and which it appears you are unaware of, is that fully 75-80% of the HR department at PDC/Glasshouse/NMPDC/Wayne Assembly/Wixom was of African-American, Asian or some other minority make-up.

In all of my years of working with, going out after work with and to attending each others personal parties, we never once EVER spoke about the internal hiring practioses of the company, not even in a joking way. It is something that was never even broached as it would or could have brought havoc on those who participated in that type of a conversation, and that was in a time when the rules were much less adhered to than they are today. I'm sure both Jackie B. and Pat A. [[real people, HR reps, late 1980's-90's) would agree with me on that.

Something else that I would like to mention is how I find the rules get bent when these discussions get started and all sorts of stuff gets thrown on the table. For instance, you referred to a white guy who sued Ford due to discrimination. Do you know the story fully enough to actually use it as a reference here or did you just hear that from a guy you were buying a car from, too? Since I was there in the thick of things, let me set the record straight so you don't embarass yourself on an internet forum again by quoting events that are not related in either circumstance or any reference you have provided [[if and when you are able to provide the references as you promised).

The guy [[T.S.) was at a meeting we were all attending with then head of the company Jack Nasser. Nasser began his speech by walking directly to the podium and starting right into a 40 minute tiraid about how "undiverse" Ford management was and how, when he looked about the room all he saw was "a sea of older white faces". After that statement, he also added that the "older white male" manager type positions were going to start to be eliminated and he was going to be responsible for changing the face of Ford once and for all. This percipitated the OWM's making a button up for their minority, which they proudly wore on the lapels of their jackets for all the world to see.

In the end, Nasser systematically began to target the more long term, older employees, a predominince of whom were white and over fifty, as he got rid of every single one of us eventually.

The guy lost his case, by the way, so he never enjoyed any benefit from it at all. A famous attorney from the Flint area handled his case, but as far as I can recall he never prevailed.

You are right about one thing though, racism still does exist. It just goes both ways now.

Also, in a rush to backfill the lack of racial fairness, Ford went on a binge in the early 90's, hiring minotirties at about a 1 in 4 ratio. It was a strange transition period, that is for sure.

Lastly, the NAACP is not the place to report to if you feel that a company is committing violations in ethical hiring practises. That would be the NLRB if you want the biggest bang for your buck.

[jiminnm]

I'm surprised Ford would be hiring newbies in the plants instead of calling back those laid off.

This is exactly correct.

None of the auto companies are hiring new employees. Zero.

Ford has stated that it will be 2 years or more before they hire any new employees. This is one article I found about it.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-retooled.html

GM has stated that it may be 5 years before they hire any new employees. That's why the new pay structure isn't immediately helpful to any auto company's costs. There's hordes of laid off employees to be called back first.

Sorry LadyCEO, someone's pulling your chain.

[East Detroit]

...........

[DetroitDad]

Actually, I was floored when told something similar by a Metro Detroit company HR head who I believe had some big names under their belt. Another was a partner on a project I was once involved with.

I'm treading on thin ice, but this kind of thinking is still viewed as normal here in Metro Detroit, let me assure you. I've been "sat down" and told that "that's just the way it is" more times than you would like to believe.

Why common sense tells people that we are past such issues comes from these people no longer being able to talk like that publicly.

[English]

Actually, I was floored when told something similar by a Metro Detroit company HR head who I believe had some big names under their belt. Another was a partner on a project I was once involved with.

I'm treading on thin ice, but this kind of thinking is still viewed as normal here in Metro Detroit, let me assure you. I've been "sat down" and told that "that's just the way it is" more times than you would like to believe.

Why common sense tells people that we are past such issues comes from these people no longer being able to talk like that publicly.

Thanks for sharing this, DetroitDad. Above and beyond affirmative action, I have encouraged my younger siblings and relatives to start their own businesses as soon as possible. That goes for my students and mentees of all races as well! We are arguing about race-race-race when the world as we know it is CHANGING. We are at the very end of the Industrial Age and modernity, and what comes next is anyone's guess. The future for all of us is to rebuild this nation and this economy anew. We just don't have a choice.

[One4Detroit]

Good news, I can settle and end this horrible thread.

So I went to get an ice cream today and who would of guessed it, there was a guy next to me in line with a Ford shirt on! After reading this thread I couldnt keep my mouth shut. I had to ask him about the Ford race scandle.

The mans name was Timmy, but turns out he doesnt work for Ford. His neighbor does though [[thank god). The neighbor told Timmy that Ford is actually hiring 22 white guys, 22 black guys and one half black/half white guy.

The good thing is I didnt know Timmy at all prior to this encounter, everyone knows complete strangers ALWAYS tell you the truth. I have no idea where he really works or his neighbor, but like I said - complete stranger = truth.

Phew! I was -this- close to calling Al Sharpton.

End Thread.

[kathy2trips]

Excellence should always prevail in hiring. Who would disagree with that?

[Hermod]

Excellence should always prevail in hiring. Who would disagree with that?

My late father managed a supplier plant on Stephenson Hwy from 1955 to 1978 when he was retired [[mandatory at 65). Prior to that he was a union toolmaker.

They never advertised jobs, the line foremen just spread the word at lunch break that they were looking for someone. Next day or so, one of the workers would show up with his nephew, brother-in-law, or neighbor.

From the point of view of productivity, it was a good system because the new workers had a "stake" in the job in the sense that they didn't want to embarrass their sponsor by being a goof off. From the point of view of diversity, it didn't do very well.

When the EEO types finally began to come around and check on the smaller shops, they noticed that the number of minorities could be counted on one finger. The company agreed to advertise all jobs through the Michigan employment offices.

While the previous employment system had a "disparate racial impact", it was never set up to be that way. It was an effective and easy way to get employees and the "not hiring" sign out front kept the receptionist from being besieged by job seekers during the work day.