A Must Read: The Crash Of ‘09 - The Collapse Of ‘10

[DetroitDad]

Will the rest of the U.S. end up like Detroit?

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/0...ollapse-of-10/

However, this is only the aperitif. Wait for the crash of US commercial real estate, which analysts think happen by autumn this year. Shops are closing down and there’s no one to rent them. Companies are retrenching and freeing up a lot of office space or closing down entirely and vacating even more precious office space with no one to rent it again. Huge skyscrapers are becoming ghost-scrapers. All this expensive commercial real estate is mortgaged to the hilt. With no rental income coming in, the loans against them will become difficult to service and there will be fearsome default. There’s insurance and re-insurance here also and the amounts involved are mind-boggling. No bailout plan would come even close to coping. When the commercial real estate collapse comes, all hell will break loose. And if multinationals like General Motors and Ford call it a day, it won’t just be thousands upon thousands of people unemployed [[though its heartless to use the word ‘just’ here). Two entire towns will be become ghost towns. That’s terrible. If you count the number of people ~ wives, children and parents ~ who are dependent on those incomes, it becomes worse than terrible. It becomes absolutely and totally unconscionable, while corrupt and greedy bankers and the likes of Bernie Madoff have made off with billions ~ perhaps trillions ~ of dollars and are still doing so because “our contracts say so.”

The article also discusses the U.S. breaking up. Putting all this into perspective, Detroit was once a super power of the U.S., and when it hit hard enough times, it broke up via suburbs. This is something that has happened in the U.S. before. What we saw in Detroit and New Orleans was a breakdown in order. Is it reasonable to think the rest of the country will follow suit?

[professorscott]

"Wait for" the crash? Let's see: General Growth Properties, which I think was like the second biggest operator of shopping centers in the United States, is now in bankruptcy. What are we waiting for, exactly? Of course there will be more such happenings; here's why.

We used to have an economy you could explain to a five-year-old: we make things; people want the things so they pay us money for the things, so we have money.

Somewhere between the 1960s and the 1990s, most of the country decided it was no longer necessary to make things. Detroit is a holdout, a dinosaur. They used to make textiles and clothing and radios and toys and video games and clocks in towns and cities all over America; now almost all of that is made overseas. We don't make anything here anymore, except cars, possibly for a little while longer. Oh yeah, we build our own houses; we haven't figured out how to import them from China yet, but we will.

Now what is our economy based on? Try explaining credit default swaps to a five-year-old. Shit, try explaining that to me! We have a fake economy and have had for some time now, and it's finally starting to collapse in on itself.

[reddog289]

I myself agree ProfScott. In my 40 yrs I have seen too much stuff sent overseas to be made. Learning from DetYes and other sources Detroit was home to many other industries besides the Automobile. Everytime I stack the folding chairs at the school I see a few of the old Samsonite chairs with the sticker Detroit, Pittsburgh, and ?. I agree with capitalism yet the capitalists in my mind have screwed them selves by cutting cost and messing with other peoples culture to raise their own net worth.

[Gistok]

Just look at the meltdown in the computer software industry. Now software is developed in India, while many educated USA computer programmer/analysts are out of work. The software comes into the USA business community with all the speed of the Internet.

There is NO tarrifs or controls or customs checks on software... it just gets here via high speed data networks... un-restricted, un-tarrifed, and un-controlled.

... and people wonder where some of the high paying jobs have gone...

[Hamtragedy]

Reddog, capitalism is dead. We're dealing with corporatism, which, by its foundation, is corrupt. As long as the main concern is rewarding stockholders, fuck the rest of us, we have no chance.

As long as trading houses [[which used to safeguard themselves to a handful of partners), and banks [[where's Glass-Steigal?) enslave themselves to the instant gratification of short term institutional investors' return on investment, capitalism has, itself, ceased.

[rid0617]

This is why I pulled our resources out of banks and dollars replacing them with gold and silver. If inflation does not destroy the dollar this countries policies and the fact we don't make anything hardly anymore will.

[PeachLaser]

Just look at the meltdown in the computer software industry. Now software is developed in India, while many educated USA computer programmer/analysts are out of work. The software comes into the USA business community with all the speed of the Internet.

There is NO tarrifs or controls or customs checks on software... it just gets here via high speed data networks... un-restricted, un-tarrifed, and un-controlled.

... and people wonder where some of the high paying jobs have gone...

In 1984, I was at COMDEX here in Atlanta. I got a tri-fold marketing piece that was produced by the Indian Government [[still have it) that touted India's commitment to software and high tech. I heard about that time that India had discovered that most Americans considered software development too hard a way to make a living. So, India saw an opportunity and ran with it. They subsidized high tech educations and companies until they began leading the world.

I guess I buck the trend. I've been developing software applications now for 23 years and we have customers in 60 countries. But, I agree that it is a very difficult way to make a living. In 23 years I've never been able to find anyone that would financially back us in projects. So, from time to time, I have considered moving to India.

[R8RBOB]

Will the rest of the U.S. end up like Detroit?

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/0...ollapse-of-10/



The article also discusses the U.S. breaking up. Putting all this into perspective, Detroit was once a super power of the U.S., and when it hit hard enough times, it broke up via suburbs. This is something that has happened in the U.S. before. What we saw in Detroit and New Orleans was a breakdown in order. Is it reasonable to think the rest of the country will follow suit?

First off, I was reading this article and it lost me when they started talking about Hawaii and Alaska going to Russia and splitting the US into six parts. What makes this writer think that Russia is better off than the United States?

Nevertheless, the writer reminded me of what else is going on in the world. Anyone from the Detroit area, vist Windsor before the passport or enhanced license thing kicks in June. You will see a downtown full of stores during the days when a US dollar gave you a loon, two quarters and a nickel closed and empty. Windsor is dying because Americans have no reason to go to Canada to shop, to party, to gamble. Who would ever think the dollar and the loon would be equal.

The comment about Detroit breaking up into suburbs. 100% true. So true that the suburbs have the mindset that they do not need Detroit yet the very suburbs are becoming the home for ex-Detroiters [[code for Black people). I wondered why L. Brooks Patterson woke up like he was in a new world.

[DetroitDad]

The comment about Detroit breaking up into suburbs. 100% true. So true that the suburbs have the mindset that they do not need Detroit yet the very suburbs are becoming the home for ex-Detroiters [[code for Black people). I wondered why L. Brooks Patterson woke up like he was in a new world.

Our suburbs can't even get along with other suburbs. They look down on each other for petty reasons, they all fiercely protect their assets and resources from each other, and some fight to keep certain groups out. It really is like Rome during the Middle Ages. Are gated communities, cement bermed office buildings, and exclusive suburbs really that different from the giant fortresses that everyone moved to during the Middle Ages? They let our differences divide us, and I don't know if it's unreasonable to think the track record proves that this is human nature in the face of crisis. If that is the case, it's not unthinkable to consider that this could happen to the U.S. as a whole.

[Bobl]

quote: "...the rest of the country is learning that you have to produce tangibles if an economy is going to survive longtime..."
One kernel of truth that describes much of the problem. Add to this the complete deregulation of the financial giants, and the tombstone epitaph is complete.

[lpg]

Didn't we import part of our homes from China in the 90's ?? The contaminated drywall that is just now starting to cause problems in the South.

[MrJones]

This article was written by no friend of the US. He's blatantly trying to disspirit his Christian enemies, thereby helping bring about the Armageddon he forsees.
Granted, there is the possibility much "paper" wealth to be lost, but the Balkanaization of the US? Alaska and Hawaii being given over to Russia? Please.
Those in this counrty who have lived willingly on scraps will continue to do so, but those with enough pride, balls and intelligence will overcome the obstacles we must face and bring the country into a brighter future. Sad, but we're better off without those who jump off overpasses. Don't join them.

[casscorridor]

Capitalism may or may not continue. The market economy may or may not continue. Never assume one way or the other, or that you don't have a role in deciding what happens.

Under capitalism, those who has the most say are those who have the most bargaining power: in the form genetics [[natural talent, strength, intellegence) or property [[real estate, factories, stocks). How one is rewarded is also based on these criteria, and while a small number of individuals sit in comfort and with little effort sacrafice get rewarded great amounts, most of us give way more effort and way more sacrafice in order to make their life of pleasure possible. Under capitalism, those who endure the most costs get rewarded the least. Under capitalism, it has been said, "good guys finish last." I prefer to say under capitalism, garbage rises.

I saw we reward people for the effort and sacrafice alone [[assuming everyone can work, if not then they should be rewarded based on need, such as children). Payment is not equal from person to person, but it is also not grossely inequal. It is rather based on how much a person freely chose to work, and how much effort/sacrafice went into that work. Those who chose to work more, would be rewarded for it.

And I saw we have democratic workplaces and a balanced mix of work, so that no person has a more/less empowering 'job complex.' No longer will one huge group spend all day doing boring, repetative, and onerous tasks, while a much smaller group enjoyed creative and empower tasks. No, now everyone will right to a balanced mix of tasks. Just as before women entered the workforce, and the talents, skills and potential of half the human population were held down, freeing around 80% of the population and allowing them to meet their fullest potentials will prove the increase productivity, efficiency and innovation.

You might ask: what if we got rid of the worst parts of capitalism, and tried to have democratic workplaces, and tried rewarding people based off their efforts rather than bargaining power while maintaining market allocation over resources? What would happen is that slowly the market would errode the participatory democratic workplace, and errode conditions in the workplace due to the pressures of the market. Many workplaces might find themselves hiring managers again, and to begin rewarding based on sheer output rather than effort and sacrafice.

Markets undermine solidarity, diversity, equity and democratic self-management. Not to mention, they are horribly inefficient, and almost never achieve equaliberium [[supply meeting demand) so we have a overabundance of missles, tanks and prisons, and a undersupply of food, health care, education, housing, and other neccesities.

I advocate that we abolish markets as an economic system, and move toward democratic planning over the economy. With a participatory planning process, we could ensure that we attain self-management [[having say of the decisions that effect me, in proportion to the degree in which I am affected) and solve the classic my rights impinging on your rights problem. Now production, consumption and allocation will be determined democratically, assisted by technology, on a mass scale. Entire industrial economies will be planned, participatorily, by millions of people. Information on all economic activitiy will be available instantly to everyone, allowing for innovations to be made availible to all [[not hid, as in capitalism), and allowing workers and consumers to deliberate about economic activity in workers and consumers councils federated up to the regional and national level, assited by facilitation boards [[workers and consumers working together, rather than pitted against each other). Each actor in the economy would propose a plan, [[invidividual workers or individual consumers and entire communities, workplaces, regions and industry federations), that would be made available to all other actors. At first the plans will not corespond... too high of consumption request and too low of production. But after succesive "iterations," facilitated by iteration facilitation boards [[IFBs), the plans would converge to result in a single "plan" for the entire economy. One that takes into account the needs and desires of the individual, without undermining the needs and desires of other individuals and the collective society, and social and environmental impact.

This is NOT central-planning like the soviet union, and neither central-planning or markets could never take into acount the diverse needs, desires, aspirations and concerns of millions of people. Gone will be the days of boom and bust and people not getting what they need. Come will the days of every human meeting their fullest potential. The outcomes will be truely beautiful. Imagine a world where nice guys raised up and instead of pushed down, and where garbage no longer rises and instead gets put in the dust bin of history.

I call this Participatory Economics, or Parecon for short. And although my description is brief and may not be that great or articulate, I invite you to learn more and decide for yourself. Because I feel we can all agree that our economy is messed up, and we need a solution. What will it be?

[R8RBOB]

Didn't we import part of our homes from China in the 90's ?? The contaminated drywall that is just now starting to cause problems in the South.

Can we stop with the importing of Chinese goods? It has been proved over and over that they don't give a F&%$ about Americans. Lead-based toys, contaminated toothpaste and drywall made with fly ash. The same type of fly ash that spill in eastern Tennessee late last year.

[jiminnm]

Who would ever think the dollar and the loon would be equal.

They're not. The U.S. dollar is worth about C$1.21 [[or the C$1.00 is worth about $0.82 U.S.).

[oladub]

Casscorridor, What exactly is preventing you and/or people like you from starting up a business that could be run along the lines you suggest? Everyone could take turns doing creative and empowering tasks. All workers could be allowed to participate in the participatory planning process. The workers could do this in house rather than have a government agency making decisions for the co-workers of this hypothetical enterprise. If the planning commission wasn't spending most of its time "doing boring, repetative, and onerous tasks", it would violate the terms you set down. Therefore, the planning must be done on a co-equal basis by everyone within the business rather than be imposed by outside powers such as government planners.

[R8RBOB]

They're not. The U.S. dollar is worth about C$1.21 [[or the C$1.00 is worth about $0.82 U.S.).

My bad....my mind is back in 2008 when the two were equal.

[softailrider]

My bad....my mind is back in 2008 when the two were equal.

I believe that was only the 2nd or 3rd time in history their dollar was at par or worth more then ours.

[reddog289]

Hard to comment on anything, think my eyes are going south after 40 yrs.Ya know when I think of it , Back in the 80's we laughed in Auto Shop when Kia came out and had their little car.We were thinking "Yugo",What did a bunch of High School kids know.

[Johnlodge]

I believe that was only the 2nd or 3rd time in history their dollar was at par or worth more then ours.

And our exports shot up. Whirlpool is reporting poor profits because the dollar is too strong. Not always so great having a strong dollar, especially when our trade partners artificially keep theirs lower so their products cost less here. [[Don't bring it up though, they'll cry foul to the WTO)

[MCP-001]

This Russian Prof and his map sound [[and look) suspiciously familiar...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Union

Not that there isn't some serious bad you-know-what coming down the line with the bankruptcy filings of GM & Chrysler in the near-future. The continuing credit crisis shutting down the markets. And when there is a run on the banks, it'll be game over at that point [[the FDIC is estimated to have only 5% of the funds available in the event that they do need to pay back depositors).

Don't believe me about the FDIC being in dire straits, don't click here then.