US Social Forum Detroit 2010

**Jimaz** · June-24-10, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by jams

That is where I disagree, those "non-productive" political exchanges are how ideas are brought into fruition, Imagine a "community organizer" being elected into the presidency.

Mate.Damn that 10-character limit!

**Russix** · June-24-10, 10:50 PM

Wait, I thought it was only supposed to be socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

**English** · June-25-10, 01:15 AM

I went down there today to see an out-of-town friend, and checked out some of the programming just to see what all the fuss was about. It's just as I suspected. You've got 8000 conference attenders, many of whom are staying in our hotels [[buddy's in the Book Cadillac), purchasing food, and patronizing our businesses.

Also, unlike many skittish out of towners, during the four trips I drove between WSU and Cobo, I saw the folks with those canvas bags walking blithely up and down the Cass Corridor, empty downtown blocks, etc. Our blight doesn't scare this crowd. My friend and her buddies live in Atlanta, DC, and New York, and they loved how "walkable" our downtown area. "Wayne State's nowhere from here!" "Greektown's just a few blocks from our hotel! We had some great food there." They really loved the Willis block with Avalon on it and I caught Bill Fletcher at the Spiral Collective. This is also NOT my friend's first visit to Detroit - several of her group are regulars at the Allied Media Conference, and say they enjoy their trips to the city. They love Grace Lee Boggs... who doesn't love her?

I didn't meet these horrible people that some posters are talking about. I met mainly educators and small business owners. Everyone was friendly and loving. I didn't hear hatred of people, but anger over policies that all Americans have agreed are failures. I'm probably not as far left as most of the people there, but I respect their passion... and it is folks like the USSF people who are spurring some wonderful grassroots work here in the D.

Little to quibble about, lots to love. My advice is for people to go check things out for themselves if they have time.

If we could get more USSF types in the city, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

**Pam** · June-25-10, 06:10 AM

Thanks for the report English.

lincoln8740 · June-25-10, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by English

If we could get more USSF types in the city, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

yep fantastic idea!

Take the city that is a model of liberal failure and add even more liberal wackos!!!1

you should run for mayor!!!

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 07:38 AM

What a spectacle - a bunch of kids and mental children from the richest country in the world gathered to promote economic ideas that have failed every single time they've been tried, ideas that have enslaved people in poverty and misery for much of the 20th century.

They have not one single example of a country or city made successful by these ideas, and on the contrary, history is heaped high with dozens of proven failures using these models. And yet they refuse to see this and continue trying to destroy cities and countries and people with their pet theories.

These people are spoiled, bored ~~~~~~~~~s and should be ashamed of themselves.

**pffft** · June-25-10, 07:44 AM

All the contras focus on one thing -- Communism -- as if that's the only thing going on here.

What's wrong with community activism/urban farming/social consciousness-raising/collective protest? Why is it narrowly labeled as one political system and then dismissed?

**oldredfordette** · June-25-10, 07:51 AM

I took a bunch of attendees on the RiverWalk last night. It was so beautiful; big old moon, soft breeze, tons of people walking back and forth. Detroit is showing her best side. They loved it.

Nice, English.

Peace, Ravine

**Pam** · June-25-10, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by pffft

All the contras focus on one thing -- Communism -- as if that's the only thing going on here.

What's wrong with community activism/urban farming/social consciousness-raising/collective protest? Why is it narrowly labeled as one political system and then dismissed?

Because then they can continue to feel smug and not face their own legacy of failure.

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by pffft

All the contras focus on one thing -- Communism -- as if that's the only thing going on here.

What's wrong with community activism/urban farming/social consciousness-raising/collective protest? Why is it narrowly labeled as one political system and then dismissed?

Because collectivism, most often in some form of Marxism, is at the root of all their satellite philosophies.

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 07:59 AM

Pam, what's a bigger failure - capitalism or communism? Which philosophy has provided a greater standard of living? Longer life expectancy? Greater human rights?

It is ridiculous for you to imply otherwise. They haven't even been close in their outcomes. What straws could you possibly be grasping at to defend historically failed thinking?

**jams** · June-25-10, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lonyo exit

What a spectacle - a bunch of kids and mental children from the richest country in the world gathered to promote economic ideas that have failed every single time they've been tried, ideas that have enslaved people in poverty and misery for much of the 20th century.

They have not one single example of a country or city made successful by these ideas, and on the contrary, history is heaped high with dozens of proven failures using these models. And yet they refuse to see this and continue trying to destroy cities and countries and people with their pet theories.

These people are spoiled, bored ~~~~~~~~~s and should be ashamed of themselves.

Yeppers, all them damn liberal ideas like 40 hour work weeks, no child labor, and safe working environments have put this nation on the road to perdition.

So how has the capitalistic goal of putting profits before people proven to be a success?

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 08:07 AM

Those were ideas within capitalism that modified it. They were never meant to destroy capitalism. Nobody is saying it should be unfettered. Nice straw man, though.

There's a big difference between that and saying the state should run things. And that's what's at the root of the philosophies being farted out at this gathering.

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 08:08 AM

Jams, then tell me - show me ONE SINGLE PLACE where your alternative philosophies have worked.

Just one.

**Pam** · June-25-10, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Lonyo exit

Pam, what's a bigger failure - capitalism or communism? Which philosophy has provided a greater standard of living? Longer life expectancy? Greater human rights?

It is ridiculous for you to imply otherwise. They haven't even been close in their outcomes. What straws could you possibly be grasping at to defend historically failed thinking?

It's not as simple as "either/or". In the first place, I agree with Pfft. These people cannot all be labeled "communists".

Capitalism in its current form definitely needs reform. The era of deregulation and outsourcing since Reagan is a definite failure.

**canuck** · June-25-10, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Lonyo exit

Pam, what's a bigger failure - capitalism or communism? Which philosophy has provided a greater standard of living? Longer life expectancy? Greater human rights?

It is ridiculous for you to imply otherwise. They haven't even been close in their outcomes. What straws could you possibly be grasping at to defend historically failed thinking?

You should look into the mess Argentina's leaders made by following Chicago school policies in their country the past ten years. About life expectancy and quality of life, check out the other thread on this forum;
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=6008

I wonder if those 1950's jalopies in Havana damage the earth more than a society where people change their cars every 2 or three years. Our concept of wealth and well being is pretty twisted if the idea of capitalism is for an individual to gather more stuff, status, and call that happiness.
The concept that capitalism is natural goes hand in hand with the illusion of fair competition. This has been hammered into our skulls for a long time and still goes a long way here in North America.

We are just waiting for some other gangrene-like system to rear its ugly head in defiance of capitalism. There are the Hugo Chavez' of this world who put every ill on the US's shoulders. They are power hungry caricatures, we have seen these guys happen over time. Some of them are more dangerous than others. But what if the disgruntled masses in China found a leader to bring about another change toward harsh communism. Remember China is still a communist country in definition. The zillionaires are amassing unimaginable wealth, the middle classes are popping up and the poor peasants are still present in droves. What if we witness a coup by China's top military brass when the cauldron of China gets too hot? China doesnt bother with the niceties of democracy, and doesnt need to profess the virtues of capitalism to operate like Jesse James.

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 09:05 AM

Canuck, let's see one of those drivers in Havana say something publicly against their government and see what happens. Yes - more poverty and few freedoms are a great alternative.

The irony is, the people at the Social Forum would've been gassed, beaten or jailed in any of the countries that follow the doctrines they espouse, including their beloved communist-monarchy Cuba, were they to protest their own government the way they are freely doing here.

Ravine · June-25-10, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by jams

That is where I disagree, those "non-productive" political exchanges are how ideas are brought into fruition, Imagine a "community organizer" being elected into the presidency.

Jimaz can preciously say "mate" to that if he wishes, but I have never known of one political discussion in this forum, or much of anywhere else, that was really a fruitful exchange of ideas.
Particularly this forum. Never.
Unless rancor & hostility are stationed somewhere between the bananas & oranges.

**maxx** · June-25-10, 09:42 AM

Socialism is about cooperation among people rather than competition. Public schools, public libraries,Medicare, food and ag coops are examples of socialism that exist in this country. It is just a matter of how much socialism and how much capitalism is there going to be.
If the Social Forum galvanizes more Detroiters to organize themselves to improve their
situation, it will have done some good.

**Danny** · June-25-10, 09:50 AM

I have seen the socialist march along Washigton Blvd. and the socialist gatherings at Hart Plaza and Grand Circus Park. I'm proud of those young people who rebel in peace against the plutomonic corporations who poison our American way of life. The U.S. need socialism and we the people need it NOW! Do away from free enterprise market and restore the proletarian union market. This plan will work. Stand of fight.

WORD FROM STREET PROPHET.

If Neda was here, she would join in for social change.

**canuck** · June-25-10, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lonyo exit

Canuck, let's see one of those drivers in Havana say something publicly against their government and see what happens. Yes - more poverty and few freedoms are a great alternative.

The irony is, the people at the Social Forum would've been gassed, beaten or jailed in any of the countries that follow the doctrines they espouse, including their beloved communist-monarchy Cuba, were they to protest their own government the way they are freely doing here.

There is irony all around;

Guantanamo is a US base on Cuba where political prisoners are jailed for crimes committed against the US. Cuba enjoys the sovereignty the US wishes to grant it. Castro and Chavez are caricatures that we are used to seeing and that only serve to illustrate a need for more rather than less cooperation as opposed to competition among nations. Guys like Castro came in to fight an untenable socio-economic situation. If you cant beat 'em was the norm for other latin american regimes, american foreign policy made sure that guys like Noriega followed the right agenda. Puppet Noriega was no longer useful when the US kidnapped him to serve trial away from his sovereign country. You could multiply these examples twenty times over and still wouldnt fill half the bible with the do's and don'ts of the human condition.

**English** · June-25-10, 11:32 AM

Thanks, Pam and oldredfordette. I'm heading back this evening.

Whoever talked about this crowd being jailed in other regimes obviously hasn't studied recent history. The United States absolutely does have political prisoners. Every single movement in this country had leaders that spent time in jail for the "freedoms" that many take for granted today. We also incarcerate a far larger percentage of our adult population than most other countries, and many people would like to lock up even more.

Many of the USSF crowd are actually critical of foreign socialist/communist regimes, and explain their analysis. I know this because I attended sessions and listened to what was being said.

**BShea** · June-25-10, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by English

If we could get more USSF types in the city, it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

How about they all invest their money in the city, start businesses and provide good jobs for the people of Detroit?

That's a helluva lot more useful than collection of Yippie carpetbaggers demanding free rainbows and unicorns.

**BShea** · June-25-10, 12:09 PM

Oh, and I see a pro-Israel group was kicked out of the USSF.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010062...at-forum-nixed

Diversity, tolerance and solidarity ... uh, huh. Plenty of room at the inn for the antisemitic organizations that want to see Israel wiped from the Earth, however.

This thing grows more pathetic and noxious as the hours pass.

**Lonyo exit** · June-25-10, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by English

We also incarcerate a far larger percentage of our adult population than most other countries, and many people would like to lock up even more.

Gee, English, maybe because they've committed actual crimes, like robbery and murder and assault and rape?

Wow, lefties sure love to think that they're some kind of threat to the state, yet they march down the street essentially ignored by everyone, including the police who escort their drum-banging parade down Woodward this morning.

Go visit a prison up north and see how many "political prisoners" you find among the murderers, thieves, and rapists up there.

What a stupid stupid assertion on your part.